Talk:Perëndi

This article was nominated for deletion on 8 July 2010. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Sulmues' edits

About this: first, the citation for the google snippet from Australian Slavonic and East European studies is still not complete – it's a journal article, so the crucial info is the author and title of the individual article. Also, what is "scholars seem to propose" supposed to mean? "I found something on Google books, but I'm too lazy to look it up properly, so I can't say for certain what those scholars are actually proposing"? That's such a ridiculous confession of editorial laziness. Either we've read the sources, then we know what their authors are saying, or we don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You asked for a citation and I gave you the citation on that edit. A primitive Illyro-Thracian God of the Sky and Thunder invoked especially in songs praying for the rain. That's what a citation is, you cite. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 19:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, a full citation is the full set of necessary bibliographic information needed for identifying a source, as you would have known had you followed the link. What you mean is a quote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Entered Journal ref template, rather than book. Not easy to identify title though. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 19:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a ToC here: [1]. If the volume and page numbers are right, the article would seem to be Brian Cooper: "The classic ‘mother' phrase in Russian: its form and origin" (17/1-2: 3-26). Don't ask me how that statement fits in with that topic though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's either Cooper or Sawczak, Europe as Object of Aversion and Desire: Cultural Antimonies in Gogol's ‘Taras Bulba' (It may be Volume 18, not 17). I never got to read Taras Bulba though, so I really am at a stopping point on this. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 20:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

87.*'s edits

Just a question to IP 87.*: did you check the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov book in the original, about those "prayers for rain"? What original ethnographic studies do G./I. base this on? (They must have some ultimate source, because they are not themselves experts on Albanian folklore). Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

they cite (vittore) pisani who had an extensive knowledge of the ancient languages of the area from what i know (but i dont know about albanian...)87.202.37.216 (talk) 15:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

actually i made a mistake..gamkrelidze-ivanov believe *perk^w- to come from *per with a suffix *-k^w which would mean that albanian lacks the suffix and uses *per + *unos (Perun) + *dyeus to form perendi if thats correct..you might have two gods here one striking (*per) and one being associated with the oak (*perk^w-) Perkunas because its the tree struck by lightning...the derivations or at least the correspondences between the perun and the perkunas groups are really uncertain it seems and the origins of perendi even more uncertain (three basic etymologies proposed by Orel, including the connection to Perun...) perhaps the "illyro-thracian" connection should be removed until theres a good source documenting it87.202.37.216 (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Pisani would make sense, he wrote some works on Albanian. Could you give the full ref, in case we need to look further into it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

pisani - l'albanais et les autres langues indo-europeennes in saggi di linguistica storica, scritti scelti. turin: rosenberg & sellier. 1959 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.37.216 (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know, thanks. I could look that up at our library if the need arises. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Slavic loan

@Miki Filigranski: apart from the fact that almost every single scholar, including all of those specializing in Albanian mythology and language history, says that Perëndi is of pre-Slavic origin. A change Perun->Perëndi is very obviously against the phonetics of Albanian. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:59, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktrimi991: Ok, but why then this article mentions the custom of Peporona related to Perun? What is the evidence that Perëndi have been worshiped by the Illyrians in antiquity?--Miki Filigranski (talk) 12:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perun/Peporona are part of the same IE tradition as Perëndi. That Perëndi was an Illyrian god is speculation because there is no evidence whatsoever for that. Because the prevalent view in scholarship is that the Albanians stem from the Illyrians, some scholars assume that Perëndi was an Illyrian god. Unfortunately we do not know the main gods of the Illyrians - in that case we could compare them with the main god names of Albanian mythology: Zojz, Perëndi, *En etc. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:29, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The content of this article is based on several reliable sources. The Albanian theonym is composed of the dí, día root, and constitutes the missing semantic link between PIE Dyeus and PIE Perkwunos (The Proto-Indo-European theonymic roots *dei- ("to shine") and *perkwu-s ("sky/rain/oak associations") may be grouped together under the classifications of "celestial luminosity".York 1993, pp. 230–240, 248) The Illyrian connection is mentioned in this article as different scholars support that hypothesis. According to many scholars, despite your pov additions to the article the custom of Dodola/Perperuna is most likely Paleo-Balkan/Thracian, not Slavic. Btw, what is the evidence that Perun was Slavic and not borrowing from Baltic, or even Paleo-Balkan (cf. the attested Thracian Perkos/Perkon)? – Βατο (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktrimi991, doesn't matter, not related to Perëndi. As presumed there's lack of proper evidence so it's possible since passed over 1500 years from the migration of the Slavs, although names, deities and customs are not always directly connected. That's the problem with folklorists&mythologists, and linguists etc., we are dealing with more-or-less well argued narratives and theories based on modern data. @Βατο, ok about the semantics, other part of the comment is shockingly wrong about everything, Paleo-Balkan/Thracian origin theory is fringe, not argued by scientists of the field and ignored by all other literature, as for non-Slavic origin of Perun, no comment... --Miki Filigranski (talk) 14:16, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is Perun part of non-Balkan Slavic traditions? Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:00, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 14:16, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktrimi the Slavic theonym appears in written records around the High Middle Ages, we don't know the original area from which it spread. The Thracian name is the oldest one attested in the region. The origins of those theonyms are unclear, and many scholars consider them to be of a common PIE origin. There is no evidence to state that the Albanian theonym is a borrowing form Slavic, and the presence of the dí, día root makes it undoubtedly an original Albanian theonym. As for the rainmaking ritual, it is a typical Balkan custom that is not found in other areas. The oldest ritualistic evidence from the region are Dodona and Daedala, likely related to the name Dodola. – Βατο (talk) 14:50, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Βατο, can you stop with this ridiculous anti-Slavism based on fringe theories, personal opinion and focus instead on the edit, using reliable sources? Out of countless reliable sources cited at the article "Perperuna and Dodola", not a single one of them related the custom with Perëndi - not even those fringe sources about Thracian origin. We are dealing here with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. I am asking you again, which and how many sources relate the custom of Perperuna/Dodola with Perëndi? Is it Pipa's Albanian Folk Verse: Structure and Genre at pg. 57 or 58? I cannot verify that on those pages. Relation of Dodola with Dodona and Daedala, different context and customs, is due to the same IE background and it is related to Balto-Slavic heritage. Baltic mythology and languages also have the same terminology related to Perkunas (Dundulis etc.) and else. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Miki Filigranski don't WP:cast aspersions and please, WP:assume good faith. It's not my OR, it's an academic view, whether you like it or not. According to Karl Treimer the original root is Illyrian porejont- "The Striker", which was originally an epithet of Shurdh "The Rainmaker"/"Water Donor" (which is likely related to the attested Thracian Zibelsourdos). Rainmaking and thunderstone customs are widespread among Albanians and the content in this article is appropriately sourced. The current content of the article does not discuss the rainmaking ritual in terms of origins of this practice, but that it was a common Balkan practice. I wonder why some Slavic-POV editors are so interested in pushing for Slavic origin of Albanian cultural aspects in wiki articles, while Albanian editors on their side don't do it. The prevalent academic view is that the Abanian theonym is a compound of per- -en- -di and that it is of a common PIE origin. I suggest you to stop unconstructive editing. – Βατο (talk) 15:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please stop going off-topic for a minute? Your comments are a clear example of anti-Slavistic POV on the article because while was called WEIGHT for my edit, you ignore the same and even bigger issue with WEIGHT regarding the Perperuna/Dodola pagan custom connection with Perëndi, not to mention advancing fringe theories and non-Slavic origin of Perun which is simply shocking. I am asking you again - provide a reliable secondary academic source that relates and derives Perperuna/Dodola custom with/from Perëndi. This article is about the Albanian deity - everything else unrelated is out of WP:SCOPE and shouldn't be included. Otherwise you're implying as it is related to the deity - which is not according to scientific literature. I warn you - even if you do find a single RS, it is not going to change anything especially not WEIGHT about the custom's Slavic origin and connection to Perun. It will be a fringe theory which shouldn't be cited at all. It's hard to read what Karl Treimer said and about what exactly so please provide a full quote, but I see that it was published in 1923! As if doesn't WP:AGEMATTERS. Is that the best you can find? Do you have something younger? Incredible, in the end you dare to say I'm the one whose "unconstructively editing" while you're fooling around with fringe theories and 100 years old sources. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The figure of Peperona/Rona is included in this article with WP:DUEWEIGHT: The following is a hetero-homometric ritual song for rainmaking which includes also the figure of Peperona (or Rona, in other cases also Perperuga, Dudula or the masculine form Dordolec or Durdulec), a traditional mythical character of Balkan folklore:[28] which is clearly a balanced wording. Where is the problem in this sentence? – Βατο (talk) 16:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The section is about Perëndi is especially invoked by Albanians in incantations and songs praying for rain.[2]. Which source relates that song and custom of Peperona/Rona i.e. Perperuna/Dodola with Perëndi? This is OR, SYNTH and has nothing to do with DUEWEIGHT. You don't understand what DUEWEIGHT even means if you called out that policy. This is the last time I am asking you. This is a warning.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rainmaking song mentions both the names Rona/Peperona and perëndi. But it is quite irrelevant for the scope of this article, there is also another ritual song as explanation. I removed Pipa's part. – Βατο (talk) 16:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I just want to say that Perëndi is most likely not borrowing from Slavic. pe is prefix, not root (Cabej 1976, Orel 1983). Perkwunos didn't exist: main alleged attestations (Perun, Perkunas, Fjorgyn) have different roots and suffixes. Sławobóg (talk) 21:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perëndi as Perën+di seems to be reasonable, though not certain. "Di" has been attested among Paleo-Balkan people with the meaning "god" (e.g. Deipaturos -father god). If indeed that is Perën+di, it should be a very old word since it counters with Albanian's word formation. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perëndi could also be from perëndoj, "to set of the sun", which would suggest a relation to the Sun worship, but also to the cult of the ancestors (from Latin parentare). Anyway, the word in Albanian has been used with the meaning God, sky, heaven. – Βατο (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not gonna push it as I'm not expert on Albanian language, but authors look legit, I made templates for you (not sure if first one is journal or series or smth): Sławobóg (talk) 14:49, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orel, Vladimir (1983). "Исконная лексика албанского языка". Славянское и балканское языкознание. Проблемы лексикологии (PDF) (in Russian). Vol. 8. Moscow: Nauka. pp. 151–152.
Çabej, Eqrem (1976). Etudes d'étymologie albanaise (in Albanian). Tirana: Akademia e Shkencave e RPS të Shqipërisë, Instituti i Gjuhësisë dhe i Letërsisë. p. 168. Sławobóg (talk) 14:49, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sławobóg, feel free to add their view to the article. Orel and Çabej are two of the best linguistics sources one can find on Albanian. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:00, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orel's etymology is already included in the article, it was added by editor Alcaios. But it is not widely discussed in the section because of the more widespread view and of the more numerous sources that relate the theonym to PIE Perkwunos. Anyway the section can be expanded. – Βατο (talk) 15:13, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, if I could just chime in here: I'm not a linguistics expert, but after countless edits on Wiktionary regarding Albanian terms, I've come to memorise quite the number of PIE > PA > Albanian phonetic changes, and I'm pretty sure perëndi cannot possibly be a "native"/unborrowed term. The relevant word for god is already preserved in Albanian as Zojz, whereby PIE /dy/ has come to be modern Albanian /z/. Hence, stemming from the PIE root *dyew-, we cannot expect a formation with /d/ as the consonant instead. The only exception would be some sort of metathesis, which did actually happen for the verb di ("to dawn") (< PIE metathesized *dey-). Nevertheless, perëndi is a noun, and even hypothesizing that Albanian preserved another word for god, PIE *deywós, which could've > PA *deiwa > modern **di, we are still dealing with a feminine noun, not a masculine one as the PIE term originally was (and hence we would also be hypothesizing about an unexplained gender switch), in addition to the fact that Albanian does not directly preserve original PIE terms without altering them in some way most of the time, thus too rendering this potential descendant more unlikely. On the other hand, a Latin borrowing fits quite a bit more comfortably: an imperantem ("ruling") would indeed > PA ~*perante (w/ regular loss of initial unstressed syllables) > perëndi. The discrepancy then noticeable between Lat. imperatōr > mbret and Lat. imperantem > perëndi and the preservation of the final -i < -e not usually found could too be explained as the latter simply being a later borrowing; indeed Latin loaned into Proto-Albanian at different stages. In this way, a Latin borrowing presents itself a more plausible scenario than an arguably shaky derivation from PIE. ArbDardh (talk) 03:39, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In relation to Latin imperatōr and imperantem see also Albanian perandor, slightly different from perëndi. Orel states that perëndi < Lat imperantem is "phonetically difficult, cf. mbret". Despite that, @ArbDardh: your observations could be reasonable, if you have reliable sources you can add relevant information into the article. As for the "sky" derivation, it is interesting that, either derived from PIE or loaned from Latin (related to a solar cult as per Orel), perëndi is a word that is semantically associated by Albanian-speakers with the sky and heaven. – Βατο (talk) 07:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prende

Is this account: "In Albanian mythology, Perëndi is the consort of the love-goddess Prende, comparable to Frigg, Odin's wife in Norse mythology." attested in Albanian folklore or it is just a modern assumption by some scholars? It is sourced with Lambertz 1973, pp. 455–509, but I can't check it. – Βατο (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have long suspected that claim is the result of some scholars' imagination. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:17, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I removed that content, if some sources documenting it exist, that part can be restored with the appropriate quotation. – Βατο (talk) 11:42, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]