Talk:Pennsylvania Dutch/Archive 1

Population

All of those population figures are very small... The third number, which is the largest, about matches the Amish population, who are only a fraction of the Pennsylvania Dutch. The Pennsylvania German language article gives a bigger figure as well. Simply look at the present-day population of Pennsylvania and consider that nearly a quarter is of German heritage. Then consider how many Pennsylvania Dutch must have migrated elsewhere in the country over their history (many people probably don't even realize a "Pennsylvania Dutch" heritage).

Not all Amish are Pennsylvania German. There are two groups of Amish Swiss Amish mainly in Indiana from what I know. And then theres the German Amish also know as Pennsylvania German. Altoug both wpeak Penssylvania German and share te same culture, tey come from different regions.

Flag

Should the Pennsylvania Dutch flag be somewhere on this article?

http://www.deitscherei.org/gewebblog/faahne.html

Dutch vs. German

I have recently added a lot of information on Pennsylvania Dutch that originated from the Palatinate. Obviously, this is not the only place of origin of PA Dutch, but my area of expertise, much of which came from sources my grandmother found when writing our family history. If anybody has any information on other PA Dutch settlement, perhaps we can collaborate on expanding this article. There is more that I can contribute, and this article now, even with info Palatine settlement does not due justice to PA Dutch history, if anyone has any knowledge on immigration from Germany outside the Palatinate, we need to collaborate to expand this article. By the way, Scotty, the PA Dutch word for German is Deitsch, Deutsch is High German. As far as this Dutch/German debate, its pretty superfluous, I've heard many PA Dutch refer to themselves as "Dutchman", and I personally, am not offended by being called PA Dutch. Thanks, Dionysus83

Yeah but I wonder how real Dutch people feel about it lol! Historian932 (talk) 14:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch, and not to be confused: We are talking here about the Amish who speakPennsylvania German language not Dutch and were misunderstood by early settlers the word in English "Dutch" where it should have been Deutch, because of their language dialect. Thank You Scotty

Why the caution? Many Pennsylvania Dutch are actually not Amish. My extended family is Amish and I had never realised that there were non-Amish or non-Mennonite Pennsylvania Dutch for a long time. It's because the Amish consider themselves (their English neighbours seem to agree with them too) as the Pennsylvania Dutch, there is actually a group called the "Fancy Dutch" who were Lutherans, and Reformed and they even have their own festival in Kutztown, Pennsylvania (but they are mostly assimilated now)... If you don't believe me, see for example a book by a writer from Goshen College on non-Anabaptist Pennsylvania Dutch Foreigners in Their Own Land, or even books like Amish Society. Anyway perhaps we should add that to the article, that in some places "Amish" and "Dutch" are taken to be synonymes. Mach's gut Stettlerj

A majority of the Pennsylvania Dutch (German) were not Amish. My ancestors were members of the German Reformed and Lutheran Churches from Berks, Lehigh, and Northampton Counties in Pennsylvania. My grandparents all spoke the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect fluently, although they were bilingual. They spoke "the dialect" at home and among their friends and family (in the dialect "Freindshaft"). The dialect is primaily from the Pfalz region in Germany (German State of Rheinland-Pfalz today). I have traced my father's ancestors to a village in Kusel Kreis in the Pfalz (near the city of Kaiserslautern) and have visited there several times. The villagers understood me when I spoke the dialect. Because some of the Pennsylvania Germans were also from the present day German state of Württemberg and other areas such the Alsace in France and from Switzerland, there was a "leveling" of the dialect sometime in the 18th and 19th centuries. Therefore, some words in the dialect are from these other areas. As far as being referred to as "Pennsylvania Dutch" is concerned, my family and others have no problem with this label. In fact, there was resistance for a long time in being called "Pennsylvania German." Today, however, there is general acceptance and the use of both labels. Mach's gut! Dgehris 11:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch Wikipedia?

anyone be interested in creating a Wikipedia in Pennsylvania Dutch? I submitted a request to wikimedia-l and the Village Pump but I need people to go along with it. I speak PG pretty well, I love the language, but I need others to help me out with writing articles, etc.

If anyone can help either write something on here or email me at joshcampfield@gmail.com Thanks!! Josh Campfield

Changing Germanic Names?

I heard this from someone whose parents spoke Pennsylvania Dutch. Could anyone verify or deny this? Thanks. --Chuck SMITH

They changed their name from Pennsylvania German during World War 2 to prevent themselves from being persecuted as Germans.

German-Americans commonly changed their surnames during World War *One*, not World War Two. Historian932 (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

This is inaccurate; a look at the 1911 Britannica confirms the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" was in use before either World War. Your sources might be confusing the fact that some families, on a case-by-case basis, did Anglicize their German surnames during the war to avoid harassment. Hephaestos

Va Sochx people! Vi hancks? Just stopped to say hey... i can deutch fetza gle bissel. just cant type it.

Dutch vs. German Redux

I doubt that. I used to live in SE PA and never heard that -- I always heard that they were called PA Dutch from the early days as a corruption of PA Deutsch -- for many years, many of them never spoke English at all. --user:jaknouseFile:Hex sign wilkum.jpg

As a Pennsylvania German myself, Pennsylvania Dutch is not the academic term for the language. Pennsylvania German preservation societies use the term Pennsylvania German not Pennsylvania Dutch. The Pennsylvania German Cultural Heritage Center, the Pennsylvania German Society all use Pennsylvania German. Pennsylvania Dutch is quaint and it sells tourist trinkets, but for a scholarly work it is not appropriate. No linguist that I know who studies the language uses the term Pennsylvania Dutch. -Stols

Amish vs. Mennonite

The majority of the speakers are either Amish or Old Order Mennonite although this was not the case a few generations ago.

This raises the question: other communities who spoke it, do they no longer speak it, or have they become Amish or Mennonite? I suppose the first. - Patrick 09:40 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Dutch vs. German Redux Once More

I spoke with an expert on the subject (he lives in Millersville, PA) and he said that both PA German and PA Dutch are both acceptable terms. The general public (our cell audience) better knows PA Dutch, so I think we should not rename it to PA German. --Chuck SMITH File:Hex sign wilkum.jpg

As a Pennsylvania German myself, Pennsylvania Dutch is not the academic term for the language. Pennsylvania German preservation societies use the term Pennsylvania German not Pennsylvania Dutch. The Pennsylvania German Cultural Heritage Center, the Pennsylvania German Society all use Pennsylvania German. Pennsylvania Dutch is quaint and it sells tourist trinkets, but for a scholarly work it is not appropriate. No linguist that I know who studies the language uses the term Pennsylvania Dutch. Newspapers in southeastern Pennsylvania use the term Pennsylvana German, etc. Maybe to certain people Pennsylvania Dutch is the more common term, but in a scholarly work it looks out of place. This is why I chose to put this contribution under PA German -Stols

According to Wikipedia:Naming Conventions, whether or not it is the academically or linguistically correct term, the article should be located where most people would look for it, unless there is an ambiguity where one term could apply to more than one idea. In this case, nothing else is referred to as either one and Pennsylvania Dutch is far more common, so the article should be located there. Wikipedia is not here to prescribe usage, but to define it. Tokerboy File:Hex sign wilkum.jpg

But there is a case of ambiguity possible under Pennsylvania Dutch since the language is not Dutch but German. Not only is Pennsylvania Dutch not academically correct, it is not necessarily more common than Pennsylvania Dutch. I would never personally look up Pennsylvania Dutch for information about Pennsylvania German unless I wanted to find Dutch Wonderland or an unauthentic recipe :).

Finally anyone wanting to learn about PA German, the first thing they should learn is that PA German is the term they should use not PA Dutch. Even if they click PA Dutch they will come to PA German so what is the big deal? I don't take an article seriously that is entitled "Pennsylvania Dutch". Do we not want to be educational. If I were a teacher I would tell my students to be weary of information claiming to talk about "Pennsylvania Dutch" especially if they don't even know the correct title what else don't they know? -Stols

There's no ambiguity because "Pennsylvania Dutch" and "Pennsylvania German" both refer to the same thing, and nothing else. There's not some other group, or even a movie or book, called "Pennsylvania Dutch". The article should explicity explain the history of the term, and explain why some or all experts believe that "Pennsylvania German" is more correct than "Pennsylvania Dutch", preferably in the first paragraph, but there are multiple reasons for keeping the article at its most common name. Tokerboy

Being from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where both my grandparents spoke "Pennsylvania Dutch" (as well as other relatives and aquaintances), I must say that I mostly heard the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" being used. While inaccurate because it is German, it is still the term that was used in virtually all my experience. It is quite accepted in the community that I am a part of to refer it as such, and I have *never* found anyone who took offense to it. However "inaccurate", it is the term that is often used by the people who speak the language. -- RM

BTW, just in case you (P. Stoltz) don't know where to find it, there is a message for you at User talk:132.212.244.67. Tokerboy

Hi RM. I agree with what you say. I am not from Lancaster but most of my family is Amish and in Lancaster Pennsylvania so I know what you are talking about. I like the term Pennsyvlania Dutch and I am in no way offended by it. I know it is what is used by people in Lancaster etc. My main concern is that it breeds confusion, is not used in academia, and thirdly, although it's my weakest point, it is not used by the majority of Pennsylvania German preservation societies. We could use the term Pennsylvania Deitsch :) (just kidding). -Stols

Just wanted to point out that Pennsylvania Deitsch would be silly, but people have tried even sillier -- like putting Christopher Columbus at Cristobal Colon (with accents I'm not typing). Tokerboy File:Hex sign wilkum.jpg

Confusion can be cured by simply mentioning what the article already does: that the language is German and not Dutch. The article need not be named German because people know it by the term Dutch. Secondly, even though academia may use the more obscure (but accurate) term, wikipedia is (I think) designed to be for the general audience, not just academia, and thus should try to reach the broadest range of persons. -- RM

Exactly. But in this article we should of course mention what academics call this dialect and why. That is information. The page title is for indexing and finding subjects. --mav

As I copyedit the article, I have no intention of replacing "German" with "Dutch". I just want the article named "Pennsylvania Dutch". It is where most people I know would go for information on the topic. Back to editing... -- RM

Yes please do use the more academically correct term within the article. But in order to expose this article to the largest possible audience we need to have it at a title they know and expect. --mav

This is what I've never understood. Can someone enlighten me. If Google can find all these "redirected from" site:www.wikipedia.org what's the problem with having articles at the correct place rather than at the popular name? Mintguy

I think the main reason is that a search for "Pennsylvania Dutch" will give extra weight to pages with the term in the title, thus raising our standing in the order of results appearing. If it were at "Pennsylvania German", google thinks the page is only tangentially important to the topic. Tokerboy

More and more of us are referring to ourselves simply as "Deitsch," which circumvents the entire Pennsylvania German vs. Pennsylvania Dutch discussion. Verzannt

Dutch vs. German Redirects?

Pennsylvania Deutch, do you get it now? Possibly a re-direct is in order? My own preference is to have the same article published under both titles. Two16

It's not Pennsylvania Deutsch anyway, it's Pennsilfaanisch-Deitsch or Pennsilfaani-Deitsch. Calling an article "Pennsylvania Dutch" is like writing an article on "French Canadians" instead of "Quebecois". People in the know will look at it and know that the author is not up to date. Those are my feelings anyway. I think I should stick to writing Esperanto pages. :) --Stols

No, no, no -- don't let this discourage you from writing articles here (not that I'm trying to steal you from Esperanto or anything). It probably seems like we're jumping down your throat, but we're just trying to enforce conventions (maybe due to Cristobal Colon and other "controversies" we're a bit extra-vigilant). You obviously care a lot about the subject and are well-educated, and your additions are most appreciated. Tokerboy

Thanks I appreciate it. I never expected hardly so many to visit the site let alone care about it. So I'm glad you care. It's not the first discussion I've had about articles I've written, just the first to involve so many people (and almost nobody on my side I see :) That's a little frustrating. --Stols

Please don't go I've always wanted to make an esperanto friend. And please no joke about the last sentence not needing esperanto. I simply popped in from recent changes, and put in my two cents on a contravescy. There are always more than one side to a contravesy: but hey this is cyberspace there can always be a technological solution. One can never extapolate completely from ones own experience.

In Canada, Quebecois and French Canadain are complimented by Acadien (not Quebecois: a different culture) and Franco-Ontarian (several distinct cultural groups) as well as other identifiable groups coast to coast most prominantly Manitoba. There is a cliche thrownout as wit (in the Canadain Cultural debates) Canada being a place with too much geography, and not enough history. If Truth ever be told: The Story of Canada is the movement of vast numbers of people across time and space.

P.s. I didn't even bother to spell it - that's hardly the point for loan words from other cultures it is the sound that counts. What if the term was common in Canada? I've heard the term used in Waterloo Canada when I lived three blocks from City Hall and the adjacent stables where Mennonites would keep their horse and buggy while in town to do shopping?

I return to my original post:

Possibly a re-direct is in order? My own preference is to have the same article published under both titles.

After all, there is so low system over head to store both once the article is stable Two16

I like your comment that Canada has too much geo and not enough history. Perhaps it's better to not have too much history though since much of history textbooks are full of wars anyway :).

From my experiences in Waterloo County the older Swiss Mennonites (because Waterloo Co. has "Russian" Mennonites too but they speak Plautdietsch, so not to be confused with them) who I have met simply call the language "German" without any "Pennsylvania" in front of it or anything. However I'm sure you can hear the term Pennsylvania Dutch used there on occasion. -Stols

It is Wikipedia practice to use the terminology that a casual user would expect to find. If they do a Search on "Pennsylvania Dutch" and "Pennsylvania German" comes up, it will be pretty surprising to them. A google search comes up with over 65,000 hits for "Pennsylvania Dutch" and 17,200 for "Pennsylvania German". I vote to put it at Pennsylvania Dutch. -- Zoe

By the way, britannica.com has it at "Pennsylvania Dutch", so so much for not being scholarly. -- Zoe

In linguistics at least it's called Pennsylvania German in virtually every article I've read. It may be under Pennsylvania Dutch but my expectation would be that in future editions this will change. I agree that in a search PA Dutch would receive more results, but I would venture to say the results you receive from PA German are more likely to be about PA German organisations as opposed to something commercial like tourism. -Stols

Why does it matter who the hits are from? Your reasoning smacks of elitism. -- [User:Zoe|Zoe]]

Sorry. That's not my intention. Perhaps I was being somewhat elitist, I apologize, but I never meant to say hits I meant to say results.

ya know the Mennonite Central Committee has been resettling Mennonites fleeing persecution and economic refugees since the Russian Revolution. The Mennonite Community is way more diverse than you could ever learn in a book. Never met anyone who ever claimed to be "Swiss": oldest people I met gave eyewitness accounts of the Russian Revolution.

Perhaps Stols you need to look at the established criterion: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine? The wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change because reflects recent scholarship. The articles reflect recent scholarship: The titles represent commmon usage.

Praying this makes it clear User:Two16

There are currently two competing writing systems for the language. For example ... But only one example is given. -- Zoe

Swiss is just a basically non-scholarly term (although the government of Canada has already used this term in some of its sponsered publications to differentiate the two Mennonite groups) to differentiate those Amish and Mennonites whose ancestors came from Switzerland as opposed to those Mennonites whose ancestors came far back from the Netherlands and Prussia originally. Of course today there are many Mennonites who are from many backgrounds and in many countries around the world. Lots of Mennonites have Swiss background though, but most Mennonites in Canada, especially in western Canada are not Swiss. -Stols

Hi Zoe, I will try eventually to change that, I can put in an example of the other, that is a slight oversight.-Stols

Don't know where you're from; but, the Government of Canada is just basically non-scholarly.

Lord's Prayer Incomplete

The third line of the second version of the Lord's Prayer is missing. - Patrick 13:13 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Origins of Dialect

Question: From which German dialect does PA German originate. The article on Hutterite German seems to indicate that it was either Palatinate or Alsace.

I am not an expert on European German dialects but I know that PA German is said to most resemble the dialects of German spoken in the Palatinate. However, PG speakers came from various parts of the southwest German speaking corner, Swabia, Wurttemberg, Alsace, Switzerland, etc., not just the Palatinate. When the settlers came over from what I understand there would have been a merging of the dialects with the end result of a dialect that resembled most the Palatinate German. I hope that answers your question. I don't claim to be an expert on this aspect however by any means. I do know that at least one entire Pennsylvania German Amish community in Canada is said to have originated entirely from Alsace and Bavaria, and the Bavarians having been in Alsace prior to being in Bavaria. I hope that answers the question. Also the Palatinate and Alsace share a border so I assume the dialects are close. -Stols

die Pfalz (the Palatinate) was until 1945 a part of Bayern (Bavaria) and the Oberpfalz (Upper Palatine) is now a region in Bavaria, see also:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz_(Region)

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatinate

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberpfalz

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberpfalz

--fux 80.134.114.51 11:08 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Is Amish even a term used by groups in Canada? I would love to know where they are so I could investigate. Would you help this project by giving me more information: I may have contacts in that community I could check.

Amish is most definitely a term used in Canada. All Amish communitites in Canada are in Ontario.

I am used to it as an Americanism. Mennonites communities are connected by blood to the Amish in Pennsylvannia. Perhaps you are trying too hard to make a messy subject rigidly perfect ( i.e. fit into convienient academic slot s. It is a side effect of abstracted thought disconnected from its ground (i.e. the very people you wish to represent 'Truely'.) Please don't be insulted when i ask for more info - I really would like your information. I don't have any axes or teeth I wish to grind to grind. However you must recognize much of your comment which used Canadain analogies waseither sloppy, spurious, or flat out ignorant of Canada realities. Why do you only respond when you can make a reasonable defense - doesn't the community deserve a response to criticism for which you have no reasonable response?

Stols - don't perform a cut and paste move, get yourself a username and then you can move pages and retain the history. Also I think you will find that this page will very probably get moved back to Pennsylvania Dutch and you'll at least be able to argue your case better as a user and not an anon IP address. Mintguy

If they put it to PA Dutch they put it to PA Dutch. I suppose if we keep putting it under PA Dutch that in the future I can still count on hearing things like I already heard on Radio-Canada (French canadian CBC television), that Old Order Mennonites speak nederlandais, but oh well. (I believe you sympathyze with my position on keeping it under PA German if I remember right, so I dont really aim that comment at u personally). I guess it's not a fight worth fighting. I gave it my 25cents. Pennsylvania Dutch does sound cute, although it's not precise.

I have no sympathy for your postion about Pennsylvannia Dutch. Have you not paid any attention to user needs requirements for their use of our search engine? Inside the article is the place to show current scholarship. We can (And shall willingly change the title back - if you launch a successful education of the world as a whole so that a typical user would type in Pennsylvania German looking for the information that convention has the wikipedia listing as Pennsylvannia Dutch.)

if I remember right there is a requirement about precision, although you could argue the term PA Dutch is precise.

Pennslvania Dutch Wiki Redux

Your steps to launch a Pennsylvanian German edition of the Wikipedia have been lauded by me on the page where you inquired about it . Please contact me: I CAN HELP YOU VERY QUICKLY. User:Two16

Dutch vs. German Debate Once More

I don't care where this article is placed, but please use the "Move this page" feature (see the sidebar or the bottom of the page) when renaming it. I believe that you must be logged in to use this. This will keep the page history intact, and work with people's watchlists. Thanks! -- Toby 04:20 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

(Actually, I guess that this comment has already been made.) -- Toby

Pennsyvania Dutch??? Are you sure? Shouldn't it be Pennsylvania Dutch? --KF 20:05 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

Article Edit History

Why the edit history of the article is messed-up? It doesn't show the editing in the chronological order. Tomos 21:22 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

Regarding the article history, this is only a temporary glitch. It will be fixed in nightly database maintenance operations. --Eloquence 21:23 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

Dutch vs. German Title

Regarding the title, I agree this should be under Pennsylvania German. This is a case where a redirect makes perfect sense. I support anglicized article titles, but I do not support using an obviously inccorect title because it is more popular among the uninformed. It is not POV for us to assert that "Pennsylvania German" is correct if there's nobody who disagrees, based on factual arguments and not mere habit, with that statement. This "Dutch" has nothing to do with Dutch. Besides, using Pennsylvania Dutch as the title and then Pennsylvania German throughout is silly, just like Occam's Razor with its use of the correct Ockham's Razor throughout the text. It's a bad convention, and we should get rid of it. Just redirect to Pennsylvania German.

Linkability is not an argument: People are already linking to this article using [[Pennsylvania Dutch|Pennsylvania German]], because obviously they do not want to use the corrupt form. Searchability is neither, since redirects show up in searches. Google-ability is only slightly reduced, since "Pennsylvania Dutch" would still be mentioned in the article body. --Eloquence 21:23 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

Eloquence, the term Pennsylvania German does not make sense in the second paragraph since it is specifically the term Pennsylvania Dutch that has been used in the way described by the paragraph, that is why it is written on a slant.

Just to weigh in, I think the article should be listed under Pennsylvania German. The "Dutch" in "Pennsylvania Dutch," as I understand it, is just a regional (erroneous) Anglicization of Deutsch. Clearly the ethnicity of the people and the roots of the language are German, not Dutch.

This is what redirects are for. Someone searches on "Pennsylvania Dutch," gets to the "Pennsylvania German" page with a note at the top saying "redirected from Pennsylvania Dutch," and, boom! They've learned something already, before even starting to read the article.

Google hits are nifty, 'tis true, but they're not the be-all and end-all of the project (at least to my understanding). A goal of accuracy should be more overriding. Hephaestos 01:36 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

Exactly, and in any case it's hardly an either-or situation as everybody (except for the poster two lines above who didn't sign his post) seems to be taking for granted. Create a redirect from Pennsylvania Dutch to Pennsylvania German, Wikipedia is full of them. Big deal. Situation resolved. Historian932 (talk) 15:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Okay, here's a quote from the page:

Those English speakers with a Pennsylvania German accent are typically noted for the switching of the sound of the v and w. An example of this is found in the phrase "A wonderful violin," which would be pronounced to sound like "A vonderful violin."

Shouldn't this say ". . . to sound like "A vonderful wiolin." ?? --user:jaknouse

No. The characteristic is not a strict switching of the two sounds; it is a melding of the two into a sound that falls somewhere in between the 'v' and 'w', similar to the blurring of English "ell" and "arr" sounds common among native speakers of Japanese. Tlesher 03:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This is also "typically noted" among many Europeans (not even necessarily German-speaking ones, even Germanic-language speaking ones), so I'm not sure of the value of this comment...especially since I don't think there really is a strong PA German accent. (from Lancaster) Historian932 (talk) 15:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Dutch vs. German Redux Redux Redux

I'm all for putting the language article under Pennsylvania German but creating a difference between the people Pennsylvania Dutch and the language Pennsylvania German is something that only exists in Wikipedia. I liked it better before the separation of the two concepts. I have never seen this separation. Plus it gives the sense that Pennsylvania German is German spoken by Dutch people.

I'm not a registered user so I can't do it but someone should put what is now Pennsylvania German under Pennsylvania German language and what is Pennsylvania Dutch under Pennsylvania German. Then it would be more in line with other language articles. -Stols

Come on! Become a registered user there are lots of benifits. Choosing your handle would allow you to sign P.STOLTZFUS, esperanto style, with three tilde [ ~ ]> If the rabid animal rights people can be satisfied with killer whale rather thanOrca even though lives are lost every day due to ignorance, you should simply let this go for now. Take on the tourist industry and leave this batlefield over our naming convention. The Conventions are a well thought out service to the typical user, given the evolving nature of the project and the constrainsts of the hardware, software and plasmaware. It is a fully defensible position. Your postion ignorrs certain facts. We have not ignorred your objections, rather we have dealt with the openly and with the same degee of care we have given to all who hold the similar point of view: Scholarship belongs in the article: typical user determines the title. User:Two16

History of the Term "Dutch"

A contribution to the debate for y'all's information: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term "Dutch" did not come to be used in English exclusively for the Netherlands until the end of the 17th century. (And of course there are exceptions to this exclusive use -- "Pennsylvania Dutch" being a principal one.) -- Toby 07:04 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, I know almost nothing about these people, but if the people originally referred to themselves as Deitsch, wouldn't it be a plausible conjecture that the term Dutch as applied to these people was just an anglicisation of the term that the people used to refer to themselves, rather than an assertion that the people were "Dutch" (whatever that term may have meant at the time)? Then the words "Dutch" (as in "Pennsylvania Dutch") and "Dutch" (as in "people from Holland" or "Germanic peoples generally") would be cognate homonyms, but not actually the same word. Does this make sense...? -- Oliver P. 07:25 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

The best hypothesis is that the identifier Dutch is a corruption of Deitsch by native English speakers, who through sheer numerical superiority in the larger community, effected a change in a linguistic isolate culture. User:Two16

Well, we know where the word "Dutch" came from (at least the OED seems certain): Middle Dutch "Dutsch" (spelling and pronunciation will vary with the dialect).

So it is indeed an Anglicisation of what certain people called themselves -- although ironically, the same people don't call themselves that anymore.

Middle High German "diutsch" (whence German "Deutsch" and PA Dutch "Deitsch") was, of course, a cognate homonym.

And all of these words -- the Middle Dutch, the Middle High German, and the Middle English -- refer to the same thing: any of those people speaking Germanic languages in and around central Europe.

Now, the OED suggests a shift in the 17th century, without being too specific about dates, so I can no longer say that I know that English "Dutch" still referred to people in the Palatinate during the time of settlement (which was strongest in the 18th century but began in the 17th).

But it seems perverse to claim that they were making a mistake when the term had just been in a state of flux.

More interesting, to me, is why people continued using the term "Dutch" to refer to the PA group -- Stols has linked to a site offering some ideas (and mostly blaming it on the tourist industry).

I think that I offered a fair take on that in my recent change to Pennsylvania German -- but as before, I remain silent on whether we should change the name of our article now, here in Wikipedia.

I will say this about that, though: Distinguishing the people from the language with the titles "Dutch" and "German" is loopy, and will only serve to confuse linkers.

It should be Pennsylvania Dutch and Pennsylvania Dutch language, or else Pennsylvania German and Pennsylvania German language (or even Pennsylvania Dutch and Pennsylvania German language, with redirects making "language" the distinguishing factor).

The current situation is just stupid. --Toby 21:41 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Just to add to Toby's answer to the question "why the continued use of PA Dutch", The tourist industry is blamed and so are the two world wars against Germany in the 20th century. -P. Stoltzfus

Come on! Become a registered user there are lots of benifits. Choosing your handle would allow you to sign Stols, esperanto style, with three tilde [ ~ ]> If the rabid animal rights people can be satisfied with killer whale rather thanOrca even though lives are lost every day due to ignorance, you should simply let this go for now. Take on the tourist industry and leave this batlefield over our naming convention. The Conventions are a well thought out service to the typical user, given the evolving nature of this project and the constrainsts of the hardware, software and plasmaware. It is a fully defensible position. Your postion ignorrs certain facts. We have not ignorred your objections, rather we have dealt with the openly and with the same degee of care we have given to all who hold the similar point of view: Scholarship belongs in the article: typical user determines the title. Let this thing drop: go write brilliant prose. User:Two16

Deitsch vs. Deutsch

isn't deitsch in fact an unrounded form of deutsch? User:Wathiik

Get rid of Pennsylvania German as it should be German only. the Slang for Pennsylvania Dutch is well known in and around Central and Southeastern Pennsylvania as Amish, Etc! Scotty

Amish? My grampa spoke the Deitsch and he was born Lutheran.

Dear User talk:66.32.22.31, Please attempt to sign in, Thanks...

Did your granpa live in Pennsylvania, Amish area, Lancaster county, and did he speak German? Deutch? If he only spoke German then it should go to the German language page. Just my two cents...You might have a better understanding of the Pennsylvania Dutch area by Wikipedia and or attempting to visit the area. The Luthern has nothing to do with it.

I'll check back later, getting late here,Thanks, Danka? Scott 04:35:05, 2005-08-27 (UTC)

My grandfather grew up in rural Berks Co. (Host) and also spoke "Pennsylfaanisch Deitsch" (as it's called on the Haaptblatt of the Pennslvania Dutch Wikipedia, and belonged to the reform church. My mother's entire family is Pennsylvania Dutch, originally from Hochstadt in der Pfalz, and were all reformed. My dad's side of the family were Anabaptists from Switzerland by way of the Pfalz, and the early settlers were Mennonite, but by the late 1800s were also reformed. The point of this being that considering only the Amish and Mennonites Pennsylvania Dutch (or German, as it were) too narrowly defines them. Jausel

Pennsylvania Dutch vs. Amish

"Pennsylvania Dutch, AND NOT TO BE CONFUSED: WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE Amish" haha that is sad, the warning at the beginning is incorrect! Most Pennsilfaani Deitsch are not Amish! For one, many are Mennonites, and many are, yes, Lutheran, and Reformed, and Schwenkfelder, and Moravian!!! And this is coming from someone's who's grandparents were Amish. See ya. Stettlerj

Entry Should Be Pennsylvania German, not Pennsylvania Dutch

I'm starting the ball rolling here to switch this entry to the correct title "Pennsylvania German." If anyone searches for "Pennsylvania Dutch," the redirect can take them to "Pennsylvania German," not the other way around, as is occuring now. The language entry is "Pennsylvania German (language)" not "Pennsylvania Dutch (language)" so the two entries should be made consistent. And, the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" is as dated and inappropriate as calling an African-American "colored." "Because a lot of people do it" is not an appropriate rationale. If you look in any standard print encyclopedia, an entry for "Pennsylvania Dutch" will redirect you to "Pennsylvania German." The same should be true for Wikipedia.

Accordingly, please contribute comments about this proposed change. And, do note, anyone who searches for "Pennsylvania Dutch" will find it. Thanks. David Hoag 06:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The opening statement of policy on Wikipedia:Naming conventions says, "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize..." Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) goes into more detail. Pennsylvania Dutch is by far the better-recognized and more widely-used term for the people described by this article. The title for the language article is different because among linguists - who have more reason to know and care that it's a dialect of German - the more "correct" term is more widely used. Tverbeek 15:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You state: "Pennsylvania Dutch is by far the better-recognized and more widely-used term for the people described by this article." I disagree. Do you have any evidence to support this claim? I would offer as evidence the overwhelming number of academic, ethnic, and non-profit entities which use the phrase "Pennsylvania German" as part of their name, which thereby establishes the latter is the more-recognized and widely-used phrase. David Hoag 05:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Only among people who name organizations, who - like linguists - aren't exactly a crosssection of the general public. On the other hand, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary has an entry for "Pennsylvania Dutch", but for "Pennsylvania German" refers you to the other entry, which is a pretty clear statement of popular usage from professional lexicographers, whose business it is to know such things. Furthermore, Google returns 1,900,000 uses of the phrase "Pennsylvania Dutch" and only 261,000 of "Pennsylvania German". I can't cite any direct statistics of how widely recognized they are, but the fact that "Pennsylvania Dutch" appears in 28 trademarks, and "Pennsylvania German" in none (from uspto.gov) suggests strongly that the former is more familiar to the general public. Tverbeek 13:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It should be noted that most of the discussion on this page about whether the title should be "Pennsylvania German" or "Pennsylvania Dutch" occured when this page was the page for the PG language (what is now the "Pennsylvania German Language Page"). The discussion was never moved with the article. Anyway, Pennsylvania Dutch, depending on the area, goes by different names, it can be called simply "Dutch" (Northern "Amish" Indiana, Southeastern PA) or just "German" (Waterloo, Ontario). It is true even most of the speakers of Pennsylvania Dutch refer to the language as Pennsylvania Dutch, especially among the Amish. The distinction between Pennsylvania Dutch the culture and Pennsylvania German the language is one that is made by the Mennonite historian S. M. Nolt. Personally I don't like the distinction. I personally think both articles should be under "Pennsylvania German", mostly because it avoids confusion, especially for people for whom English is their second language and so on. Stettlerj 16:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I'm Pennsylvania German. Everyone in my family dislikes the inaccurate term "Pennsylvania Dutch." I think this stigma is growing because of the cutsified nonsense promulgated by the tourist industry in Pennsylvania. I think it would be more accurate to list this article with the title Pennsylvania German. It is inaccurate to call our ethnic group Dutch. We are not Dutch. Jeff Fenstermacher 06:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree. I'm supporting the renaming of the article to "Pennsylvania German", and having "Pennsylvania Dutch" redirect to it. MikeZ 19:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree also Daisye

Disagree I'm Pennsylvania Dutch. Everyone in my family uses the word Pennsylvania Dutch. Wyrick 05:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, a vote headcount so far:

• Agree (5): David Hoag, Stettlerj, Jeff Fenstermacher, Michael Zimmermann, Daisye
• Disagree (2): Tverbeek, Wyrick

Compiled Feb. 12, 2006 -- David Hoag 19:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Germans Are Not "Often" Amish

A change was made to the article as follows, They are a people of various religious affiliations, often Amish...

This is inaccurate. There are far more Mennonites than Amish, for example, and in turn there are far more "high church" Pennsylvania Germans than Mennonites. I reference the Pennsylvania German language article here on Wikipedia: According to the Johns Hopkins University sociologist John A. Hostetler, fewer than 10 percent of the original Pennsylvania German population was Amish or Mennonite.

So I reworded the article as follows: They are a people of various religious affiliations, often of Anabaptist origins... David Hoag 00:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The Hostetler statement is NOT just unverifiable, but demonstrably untrue. Hostetler was NOT a sociologist at John Hopkins in 2003 (which is when that statement first appeared, courtesy of an anonymous edit). For that matter matter, he wasn't ANYTHING in 2003 - he had been pushing up daisies for a couple of years at that point. Hostetler taught at Temple from 1965 to 1985, and then he moved to Elizabethtown College to become first director of the Young Center for the Study of Anabaptist and Pietist Groups. And, of course, 93.1% of all statistics are made up on the spot, as we all know.... ClairSamoht 01:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You have a point that today by far most active Pennsylvania Dutch speaking people are Old Order Amish, however here is the quote, and you're right it's not from 2003, it's from 1952:

"Contrary to popular opinion, the Amish are not the only Pennsylvania Dutch people in America; in fact, they together with the Mennonites number not more than ten per cent of the entire Pennsylvania Dutch-speaking people of America. Other "Dutch" speaking religious groups are the Lutherans, Reformed, Evangelical United Brethren, Church of the Brethren (Dunkards) and River Brethren (Hostetler in Amish Life, 1952:15)."

As the one who started at all this with my ignorant edit, my suggestion is to use a term than encompasses all those religious groups or the majority of them, or say "often associated with Amish and Mennonites but also used by many other groups." Adam Mathias 18:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Adam, you said: my suggestion is to use a term than encompasses all those religious groups. Good suggestion. That's why I changed it to the "often of Anabaptist origins," as that includes the relevant religious groups in question. Cheers, David Hoag 18:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Deitsch is an ethnic group, not a religious affiliation. A person can change religions or have no religion and still be Deitsch. Pinning all Deitsch as Amish, Mennonite, or any other religion simply continues a pattern of confusion. Verzannt

Cleaned Up the Messiest Discussion Page on Wikipedia

I've made an attempt to organize and clean up this discussion page. I changed no text nor the order in which anything appeared (except for moving one orphaned comment). However, I removed the shouting formats inserted by a now-banned user and removed all the pointless lines. A lot of this problem was caused by one nonuser who didn't seem to understand the Wiki discussion format. So I "made the article all ready up."David Hoag 18:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning it up, it looks good in here for probably the first time. Stettlerj 19:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I don't know if it looks good, or if it's the messiest discussion page on Wikipedia, and I appreciate anyone who takes on cleaning up this page, but it's still pretty ugly in here. :-) A lot of the arguments seem to be repeated, is the main thing to me. Historian932 (talk) 15:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sourcees?

Were the Pennsylvania Dutch really Loyalists?

Reference for this speaks to South Carolina history, not Pennsylvania history. I was surprised to see this claim, descendant as I am from two strong Pennsylvania Dutch families who had a half-dozen or more volunteers for the Revolution.

I'd like to see citations for the following two statements:

"In earlier generations, the Pennsylvania Dutch spoke English fluently but with a strong and distinctive accent."

and "Pennsylvania German can be said to be dying in at least two ways. First, while it was once used as an everyday language in many parts of southeastern Pennsylvania, today it is not. There are still many among the older generations who speak it; however, most of their descendants know only English."

I grew up in Indiana surrounded by Amish. They -- all of them, not just the older adults -- still speak Deitsch. I now live in central Pennsylvania, with a rapidly growing Amish community, and all of them speak Deitsch, and all of them speak heavily accented English. I'm the last person who would claim that anecdotes are any kind of evidence, but at least among the Amish, I see absolutely no sign of language death. And speaking of, there's also this quotation:

"Second, the Amish, who do speak the language every day, use many English words in their Pennsylvania German. Because of this transformation, there is a fear among some that the Amish are gradually losing the language as they slowly replace Pennsylvania German words with English ones."

While there may be a fear of language loss, if loan words are a sign of language death, then every language ever spoken on the face of the earth is in danger of extinction. In other words, the fear of language loss and language loss are two entirely different issues, and should not be confused, as they are in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pennling (talk • contribs) 10:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Jersey Dutch

There is also a Jersey Dutch, described in its article as a Dutch dialect deriving from the original New Netherland colony. The New Netherland article also claims that streams or stream associated features ending in "-kill" are originally Dutch words. Does this also apply to features e.g. "Bushkill Falls" in Pennsylvania? (Since that one flows into the Delaware I assume so)

Please add some description of whether Pennsylvania Dutch and Jersey Dutch were related to one another, and also whether any other "Dutches" have been spoken in any other states or regions nearby. Thanks! 70.15.116.59 (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably you are right. In the Netherlands, we know a river mouth at Dordrecht, called Dordtse Kil. So, thank you for this reference. Ad43 (talk) 08:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The name of Bushkill Falls is derived from Bushkill Creek, which is a tributary of the Delaware River. It was probably named in the same way that another Delaware River tributary was named, the Schuylkill River. The Schuylkill was indeed named by a colonial explorer of Netherlands origin.

Both these names and the Jersey Dutch language are completely seperate from the Pennsylvania Dutch, however. The Pennsylvania Dutch were of German origin, and they did not come to the New World until after the New Netherlands colony had been taken by the English. They arrived after Pennsylvania was founded, while the Jersey Dutch were descendants of colonists from the Netherlands.--129.68.111.193 (talk) 23:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense??

... "which is certainly not the case with Pennsylvania Deitsch. So Deitsch means 'German', while Dietsch means 'Dutch' [3]." WTF???

Just found out not long ago that I was Pennsylvania Dutch (I've always just thought I was American because my family was here when the Revolution happened) Trying to learn more but that doesn't make any sense to me.

-J Klyne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.161.55.158 (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Today

This article discusses the origins of term the Pennsylvania Dutch, the orgins of the people but nothing about these people today a major omission Gnevin (talk) 23:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

So add something. :-) Historian932 (talk) 15:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

A strong accent?

I've seen it mentioned in several places (aside from Wikipedia) that the PA Dutch have a "strong regional accent"…I'm from Lancaster, PA originally and while of course you can make the argument that people don't "notice" an accent in the area they come from, I've never really considered people in that area (or any part of pennsylvania really) as having a "strong regional accent"…do Amish (or other groups descended from Palatinate refugees of the 17th century blah blah etc.) in other states have much stronger accents (if someone really knows say communities in both PA and Indiana), or is this just another exaggeration? (my suspicion) Historian932 (talk) 15:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch should now be spelled and pronunced as Pennsylvania Deutsch

Pennsylvania Dutch should be now referred to by others who are not Pensylvania Deutsch as being Pennsylvania Deutsch as the English and later the Americans could not pronounce it properly and confused it for the Netherlanders pronunciatation of their language and also since the way the Nazis and German Army treated the Dutch Netherlands people during World War Two. It is only confusing to non-Pennsylvania Deutsch and Netherlands Dutch people for this uneducated practice to continue. I have known many Netherlanders, both Neterlands Dutch and Canadians of that background who have pointed these points out to me. It is now considered almost an insult to be referred to as Dutch by the Nederlands Dutch (Netherlands people) who are not considered German at all any more etc. and who have not ben for centuries. This seems to be an American, or rather a United States phenomenon. I hope the article will be amended properly.

Our own name for ourselves is not "Deutsch," It is "Deitsch." We should not use a form that was never historically relevant. Our ancestors left before there was a "Deutsch" national identity. Verzannt

"Pennsylvania Dutch were loyalists"

Deleted two sentences about Pa Dutch being loyalists (tories) during the revolution. They very well may have been, but the cited source was a little known book about a few hundred German immigrants in the midlands the South Carolina. (Source (5), on the list) Here's a link to the original source used. You'll find the information the editor used (manipulated?) on page(s) 28-29. SC Germans. Gendylan35 (talk) 08:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Archive

this page was to long so it has been archived --gdaly7 (talk) 13:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Religions of the Pennsylvania Dutch

While I am certainly in camp with the other religions mentions as being Pennsylvania Dutch I am not so certain "Roman Catholic" would fit the bill for the mainstream Anabaptists which are the predominant group associated with the culture. The Pennsylvania Dutch fled from the church as a matter of religious persecution, even from some more mainstream protestant denominations from europe into Quaker Pennsylvania, I suggest you begin by reading the Martyrs Mirror.

Surprise! I am of Pa Dutch ancestry and a Roman Catholic-not alone, I have quite a number of kinfolk that claim Pa Dutch ancestry-being German-and Roman Catholic.This includes Dormers and Kappens and Fryes. This is not a small number of people to be ignored and omitted from the article. When I have an exact number and cite, it will be added to the article. --Brattysoul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.158.50 (talk) 02:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Complete information

Maybe you guys could work together with the people of the "Pennsylvania German language"-page ?81.207.97.6 (talk) 11:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. As a Pennsylvania (German) Dutch, Roman Catholic individual, I have been offended by much of what's been written in the article and reviewed in the 'talk' section. There is a lively verbal history that has been handed down in my own family of those of German descent, and up to the 1960s, only married other Pa (German) Dutch folk. This being the case, I can say that what I have read here shows most 'educated' people forget that there is much, much more going on than what they have been taught in a classroom, or what some arrogant 'scholar' believes or claims about any ethnic group. It's sad how little is understood about any verbal history.

I know that many Pa. Dutch from the Second World War Era, and their children,(born prior to 1950) who claim Pa Dutch heritage, and are actually of German descent, are VEHEMENT in their denials of being German, that they are in fact, Pennsylvania Dutch, and they will tell you so, in no uncertain terms. It's about being ashamed of their heritage. However, that has changed since the 90s, with the inception of all ancestry in this country becoming "Insert Ancestry Here-American", for instance German-American Day celebrated on Oct 6th, in of all places, the Germantown Section of Philadelphia.

As to the entire etymology of the title "Pennsylvania Dutch", that also has a verbal history, and what has been taught in many elementary schools here, relates to how the immigrants spoke in their language--"sprechen Deutsch" for the German peoples and "sprechen niederländisch" for the Dutch peoples. Asking if anyone spoke the German language, not Dutch; though we see many similarities in words, they are not the same when related to their own languages: One being German and the other Dutch-from the Netherlands.

Then there is the individual who cited Quakers and Mennonites that founded Germantown in Philadelphia, while partly true, he/she did not include the ancestry. Yes they were of those Religions, but they were of German descent!! Hence the namesake of that town; Germantown! Anyone can reference the Wiki page and review it their self.

As soon as I have the time, I will collect all references that back up all that I have written here, and the changes shall be made in relation to how some things have come about and have been related throughout our own families for many generations. 76.124.158.50 (talk) 03:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC) BrattySoul

Massive Undercount

The populations figures must be a massive undercount. It lists 200,000 as the largest figure, when the population figures for the Amish and the Pennsylvania German speakers both surpass that number. This number not only does not take into account the "Fancy Dutch" who assimilated and stopped speaking the language, the population of which was always larger than the "Plain People", it also appears to miss a large portion of the Plain Dutch as well.

In addition, over a quarter of the populations of Pennsylvania and Ohio and nearly a quarter of the population of Indiana claim German heritage as well. That's in addition to the many other people in other parts of the US and Canada who have Pennsylvania Dutch roots (Dwight Eisenhower is one of the most famous, and I have a friend in Kansas who does as well). I think it is likely the same case as the Americans of British Isles ancestry... People don't consider themselves part of it because they aren't aware or because they've abandoned the identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.148.217 (talk) 03:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Amish and Mennonites are Only a Fraction of PA Dutch

As the entry of "Massive Undercount" points out this article seems to make the classic mistake in positing that only the "quaint folk" such as the Amish and Mennonites are the PA Dutch which is not the case at all. My own family line is one of the families that immigrated to the Tulpehocken Valley in PA from New York in 1723 being my 6th. great-grandfather, Johan Nicholas Schäfer with his family consisting of his wife, Maria Suder and their five sons. Johan Nicholas is believed to have immigrated with two of his brothers and genealogists estimate that this family alone has over one million descendants in the US today. 70.20.121.68 (talk) 23:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Mike Shafer

Pennsylvania German movement comment

The Pennsylvania German movement is not to be confused with the Anabaptist movement during the 1600s to 1700s. The Pennsylvania German movement was a result of Napolean Bonaparte liberating d'Alcase and the French area of Switzerland from the late 1790s to 1815. It was enough that Napolean accomplished his conquests, but then a phenomenon in 1815 occurred called the "Year without a Summer" in Europe where the summer temperature never exceeded 50 degrees affecting crop production. As a result of this many Europeans in d'Alcase left for America. The Pennsylvania German movement essentially occurred between 1800-1820 and was comprised of three people groups: Germans, French and Jews, many of them entering through Philadelphia. These were the Pennsylvania Germans.

This comment appeared at the end of the page, but should be elsewhere. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Where did they emigrate from?

right now the article says "Germanic peoples who emigrated to the U.S. (primarily to Pennsylvania), from Germany, Switzerland and The Low Countries prior to 1800" Germany did not exist as a country in 1800, so shouldn't the article say where they actually came from? also "The Low Countries" is a completely ridiculous term to use. 96.224.36.234 (talk) 21:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The "Pennsylvania Dutch" are fundamentalist Mennonites from Switzerland. There are virtually NO Amish or Mennonites from what is now Germany. People like to make things up and find explanations where there are none, so every article I've ever read talks about the Pennsylvania Dutch having "German" roots. Keep in mind that German-speaking Mennonite people generally refer to themselves as "Deutsch," which is an ethno-liguistic group to them, not a "nationality" in the modern nation-state sense. Most of this article is speculation and other nonsense, and the entire article should be deleted in favor of a "stub."97.125.42.15 (talk) 16:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

they do include the Mennonites -- but most were Lutherans, as typified bhy Frederick Muhlenberg. See A. G. Roeber, Palatines, Liberty, and Property: German Lutherans in Colonial British America (1998) . Rjensen (talk) 01:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The Pennsylvania Dutch consist almost entirely of people who emigrated from the German Palatinate, along with some Hessian soldiers who spoke an almost identical dialect. Only a small minority of them were Anabaptists (such as Mennonites and Amish) and even those tended to have migrated from Switzerland to the Palatinate and then on to Pennsylvania. To say that the Pennsylvania Dutch were not German is just not accurate; they were almost all German and even the ones who were from Switzerland or Alsace would have spoken a Germanic language and considered themselves German. (Remember that Germany was in those days an assortment of principalities and such and therefore being German described one's ethnicity and not one's nationality. At the time, they would have had no way of knowing whose homeland would eventually be incorporated into present-day Germany and whose would not so they would not have drawn a distinction between Germans and German-speaking Swiss or Austrians or German speaking Alsatians from what is now a part of France.) Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 18:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Since the Holy Roman Empire (yeah I know neither holy nor roman nor an empire) renamed it self in the early 1500 into Holy Roman Emprie of the German Nation - one might argue that there was a Germany as some kind of a country 78.42.252.102 (talk) 20:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I am descended from Northern Indiana Pennsylvania Dutch. My family history indicates that while a large chunk of us came from Switzerland, there were also significant numbers from Alsace-Lorraine in what is now France.Dyscard (talk) 17:27, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Origin of "Pennsylvania Dutch" -- Truly a Corruption of "Deutsch"?

I'm skeptical. I know this is the most common explanation, but.... Basically, in the USA, during the period that the people we're talking about "took root" as immigrants, "Dutch" was -- correct me if I'm wrong -- a common term for anyone haling from the various parts of Europe that would later become the Germany, the Netherlands, and probably a couple of other modern-day nation-states. I don't have any cites handy (consarnit), but I'm certain I've read, multiple times, that "Dutch" was a generic term, applied to any German-speaker, residingin the United States (or the Colonies, before the Revolution), circa...the late 18th century to German unification. I know there are countless sources claiming that "Pennsylvania Dutch" came about because "people heard 'Deutsch', and said, 'Oh, Dutch!'"...but presuming that my conjecture (that "Dutch" was, you know, per above, common), I don't think there's any reason to resort to a the "mishearing Deutsch" thing. The "group mishears another group, and it becomes the term" thing is extremely common in folk etymology (I can list a bunch of examples -- "kangaroo" means "I don't know", for one), and this also makes me skeptical. Anyone got any concrete evidence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Occlusian (talk • contribs) 09:13, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It seems somewhat naive to try to compare the modern English word Dutch (not used in Dutch) with the modern German word "deutsch". Historically, Dutch might have been used in the English language for all Germans, and it would be a very strange coincident that it is almost identical to the word Germans use for themselves, deutsch, especially as the German standard language and spelling was finally fixed in its current form in 1902. The country Germany was not formed before 1871 and it was clearly at the time not seen as unification of all but only of some German states. Now almost extinct northern German dialects are essentially the same than Dutch, so that it would seem strange that the people living in the Netherlands (=low lands; the low lands of what?) would have not considered themselves deutsch 300 years ago. I do not know how 'deutsch' was spelled and pronounced 300 years ago in various parts of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, of which the current territory of the Netherlands were clearly part, but an pretty sure it was not uniformly the current modern pronunciation and spelling. If the Dutch nowadays do not identify as being German is that more a result of the recent Nazi history of the country of Germany and is not indicative that they would not have considered themselves "deutsch" 300 years ago. I, consequently, must assume that the coining of the term German and the restriction of the term Dutch to the Netherlands is a recent development in the English language, likely not older than the creation of the Second Reich in 1871. (Wbuchmaier (talk) 22:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC))

You can assume but you would be wrong. Or you could quickly read History of the Netherlands. Rmhermen (talk) 19:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually the history of the Netherlands won't help with the etymology of the English word Dutch but you are right, it was used to refer to any Germanic person south of Scandinavia and gradually narrowed its meaning to just Netherlanders. But your timing is off because the meaning narrowed beginning in the 17th century. However the process was gradual and there are a number of place names in the USA that use the word "Dutch" in the Germanic sense. (It's likely that the meaning changed first in England but took longer to change in the USA.)

Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 19:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Wbuchmaier "the low lands of what?" - the "low lands" refers to the fact that much of Holland (the country where people are known as Dutch) is at or below sea level, with much of the land below sea level having been reclaimed from the sea by the use of dikes. You might be familiar with the popular story about the Dutch boy who plugged a hole in a dike with his finger, thereby saving Holland from being flooded. There is also an old saying that "God created the world, except for Holland" because so much of the country was in fact reclaimed from the sea using dikes. Finally, another name for Holland is "The Netherlands" ("Niederland" in German), "nether" coming from the same root as the word beneath, i.e. beneath sea level. Technically speaking not all of Holland is actually "The Netherlands" (or is it the other way around? I don't remember) but in popular usage, they are one and the same. Andrew S. (talk) 02:47, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, this needs to be rectified. At the time the Pennsylvania Dutch arrived in America, the terms "German" and "High Dutch" were still interchangeable among English speakers. "Low Dutch" is what we now know as "Dutch", while "High Dutch" became known as German as those two languages drifted apart. In Benjamin Franklin's Pennsylvania Gazette, there are frequent mentions of "High Dutch" and "Low Dutch", though by the mid-1700s, "German" had supplanted the term "High Dutch" as the norm. There are many, many sources from the 1600s and 1700s that back this up, as well as more recent scholarship confirming this. Right now in this wiki article, all but one of the cited sources asserting that "Dutch" is a corruption of "Deutsch" are written in 2004 or later, and they all make the assertion without offering any evidence in their texts that it's true. The one earlier source cited is the 1872 book Pennsylvania Dutch: A Dialect of South German with an Infusion of English by Samuel Stehman Haldeman, which doesn't really go into any detail on the etymology. It asserts on page 4 of that book that Pennsylvania Dutch is "so called because Germans call themselves Deutsch" but that assertion is footnoted with the explanation: "The mistake has arisen from the popular confusion between the terms Dutch and German, which are synonymous with many. In Albany (New York) they speak of the Double Dutch Church, which seems to have been formed by the fusion of a German Reformed with a Dutch Reformed congregation." When I have time, I will try to update this section of this article with more authoritative sources on the matter, unless someone beats me to it. Mayor of awesometown (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Menno Simons was born in what today is the Netherlands. Repkow (talk) 20:16, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Reengineering of Lede

I would like to place an "Etymology" heading above the second paragraph, thus moving it out of the lede and making it the first section after the lede. I would also like to then expand the lede to make it a summary of the article rather then a section on etymology. Is anyone against this? Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 23:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

yes: very good idea. Rjensen (talk) 04:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I made an initial pass at it. I am not entirely happy with the result but since I still prefer it to the old abbreviated lede I have moved it onto the live page. Please feel free to contribute to improving this section! Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 20:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Some of those who originally founded/settled Germantown were indeed largely of Dutch ancestry. Dutch authorities persecuted Mennonites in the 17th century, burning several at the stake in Amsterdam. Many Dutch Mennonites escaped Holland and traveled via Dollendorf to the area around Kriegsheim in the Palatinate,arriving there in the mid 17th century. John Ames, a Quaker missionary visited Kriegheim and converted several of the Dutch Mennonite families to Quakers. William Penn himself visited these Quakers in the late 1670's according to entries in his journal. The government already levied a special tax on Mennonites and Quakers because they were not of the "official" state religion. It also levied a tax on the people to pay the expenses of a war with Turkey. Many Mennonites and most Quakers refused to pay the tax or to serve their turn as a town guard. As a result, the local magistrate (Hochmal Schmal)was forced to begin taking property for past due taxes. The Dutch Quaker families became very unpopular with the locals and requested permission to leave for America. These families were Umstatt, Hendricks, Schumacher, Kolb and others. Two of Gerhart Hendrick's grandsons served as early Mayor's of Philadelphia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.238.249.239 (talk) 19:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Etymology

Recently there has been a bit of an edit war over the 2nd paragraph of the Etymology section. After reverting the edits several times I've finally given in and decided to try to work with the changes. My main objections to the changes so far have been a) the original version represented the "mispronunciation of Dietsch" theory as the only viable theory even though the cited source lists five possible reasons why this groups uses "Dutch" as their English-language endonym (although many now do use "German" or "Pennsylvania Dutch" or "Pennsylvania German"). Also, the wording claimed that the name Dutch was onomatopoeic, which is clearly not the case and appears to represent a misunderstanding of the word onomatopoeic. Finally, the new wording claims that Pennsylvania German bears only a superficial resemblance to Dutch, which is nonsense because the language is a dialect of German and German and Dutch have a deep and fundamental relationship that renders the two languages very very similar (as are by extension their respective dialects and offshoot languages).

However, do we even need that 2nd paragraph at all? It seems to contradict the first to some extent and doesn't flow well from the 1st paragraph at all. Also, the etymology of the English word "Dutch" demonstrates a far more compelling explanation for the current label of the Pennsylvania Dutch people (who BTW still prefer to be called Dutch even though they are totally aware of their relationship to German and have historically used Standard German and not Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands in their church services).

Thanks for your input, Dusty|💬|You can help! 16:02, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Occupation skills of immigrants

I remember in college US history class the assertion that many of those from the Palatinate were encouraged to come because of their metal-working skills. The article at present mentions only their excellent farming skills. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.150.151 (talk) 03:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I recall learning this also-from the building of the Bryn Athyn Cathedral-many of the various artesians,from several European countries, including many Germans-remained in this country-- Brattysoul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.158.50 (talk) 02:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Photo and image formatting needs to be reviewed and improved

More and more photos, maps and other images have been added to this article over the last several months and years, giving it an increasingly cluttered look that makes it difficult to read and comprehend, particularly for people with visual impairments. At least several of these image additions appear to violate Wikipedia's Manual of Style/Accessibility standards which urge editors to "Avoid placing images on the left hand side as a consistent left hand margin makes reading easier" and "Avoid sandwiching text between two images or, unless absolutely necessary, using fixed image sizes." At this point, several images need to be removed in order to bring the article back into compliance with the MOS and make it more accessible for Wikipedia users with visual impairments. 47thPennVols (talk) 04:12, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Claim that modern Pennsylvania Dutch consider Dutchman to be a slur

In a recent reverted edit, 47thPennVols claimed that the word "Dutchman" is considered a slur by the modern Pennsylvania Dutch community. Is there any citation that Pennsylvania Dutch consider Dutchman to be a slur? Aearthrise (talk) 17:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

From Dictionary.com: "USAGE NOTE FOR DUTCHMAN: As used to refer to a German, the term Dutchman was originally standard English. But around the time of World War I, it became a slang term of contempt for the enemy. Its use nowadays is still sometimes perceived as insulting." From the Dictionary of South African English: "slang. A derogatory and offensive name for an Afrikaner, used of both men and women." - 47thPennVols (talk) 17:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe that Dictionary.com is referring to the Pennsylvania Dutch community, rather to the Germans from Germany and other German lands. Here are recent and historic quotes using the term "Pennsylvania Dutchman":

The Duke of Sunderland, on taking leave, remarked that now, having seen a real Pennsylvania-Dutchman, he was anxious to see a live New England Yankee, so he might make a comparison, intimating, however, that the Dutchman had probably outdone the Yankee.

The Pennsylvania Dutchman and wherein he has excelled... If ever Pennsylvania shall receive due credit for her unequalled influence and achievement, it will be when her writers and talkers- historical, literary, and political- shall cease their efforts to belittle that accomplishment in which they think they and theirs have had no part... their antecedents may also disclose a nearer relation to events of importance in her history, due to the Pennsylvania Dutchman, than they at present recognize.

"We, the Pennsylvania Dutch, were taught for generations to despise and disrespect our traditional culture. The task that we of The Pennsylvania Dutchman have set ourselves is to teach NOT hate, NOT disrespect, but UNDERSTANDING, APPRECIATION, and, most important of all, a LOVE FOR OUR HERITAGE."

...Among them were the members of the Dutch Club. Formed in 1995, the club's purpose is to enjoy the speaking of Pennsylvania Dutch. The club meets every Tuesday to view Musser's "Pennsylvania Dutchman" and talk Dutch to each other.

The Groundhog has become the principal symbol of the Pennsylvania Dutchman. The only competitor of the Groundhog may be the bearded Amishman, who has become a national figure growing out of Pennsylvania-centered twentieth-century tourism.

Looking at literature published recently and historically, I can only conclude that the Pennsylvania Dutch community still embraces "Dutchman" with respect. Aearthrise (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• I'm curious. What is your interest in Pennsylvania Dutch History? I ask because you seem to have an intense interest in Pennsylvania Dutch history, which is not something that has attracted a lot of interest over the years. (I was born, raised and educated in Pennsylvania and am descended from a long line of Pennsylvania Germans, but I see that you reside in New Orleans and that you're a French Louisianian and professional translator. So, Pennsylvania Dutch history seems like an unusual area of research interest for someone with your level of Latin translation experience.) - 47thPennVols (talk) 22:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

My grandfather was Dutch, and unfortunately he passed away during the pandemic. I do miss speaking Dutch with him, and I wish I spent more time with him. Developing this article helps me connect with my German heritage. Aearthrise (talk) 03:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• I'm so sorry to hear about your grandfather's passing. I just lost my sister in April. She and I shared a love of American and World History and had an epic adventure across Louisiana a number of years ago that her children still talk about. (She lived in Lake Charles with her family for roughly twenty-five years.) I think it's great that you're trying to learn more about Pennsylvania Dutch history. I would say, though, that I remain concerned about the use of the term "Dutchman" so frequently throughout the main Wikipedia article about Pennsylvania Dutch culture. Quite honestly, the term "Dutchman" was considered an offensive term and not one of respect by many people I knew growing up in Pennsylvania (family, friends, German-language teachers, colleagues) because of its history of derogatory use against Pennsylvania Germans during and after World War I and World War II. (My Dad was a World War II veteran who spoke often to my sisters and I about the discrimination he and his siblings and cousins faced as Pennsylvania Germans during both wars; one of his cousins was a World War I vet who spent the remainder of his life suffering from the effects of having been gassed in battle. My sisters and I knew him as "Uncle Pat." The anti-German/anti-Pennsylvania Dutch hatred and discrimination that they and many others experienced during and after those wars was so painful that they were very outspoken about not wanting to be referred to as Dutchmen under any circumstance. And this remains the case for many people today who define themselves as Pennsylvania German or Pennsylvania Dutch.) So, I'm wondering if there might be a better way to reduce the use of the term in the article since it will be viewed by some readers as hurtful? (And I honestly don't think you're intending to be hurtful.) Kind Regards. - 47thPennVols (talk) 06:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  What is your citation that "Pennsylvania Dutchman" is a derogatory term for the PA Dutch people? Aearthrise (talk) 06:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• There are several, but again, per my earlier post: From Dictionary.com: "USAGE NOTE FOR DUTCHMAN: As used to refer to a German, the term Dutchman was originally standard English. But around the time of World War I, it became a slang term of contempt for the enemy. Its use nowadays is still sometimes perceived as insulting." - 47thPennVols (talk) 08:06, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  If "there are several" citations that the PA Dutch regard "Dutchman" as a derogatory term, then post them. Your Dictionary.com does not prove what you're claiming. Indeed, evidence shows the opposite, that the PA Dutch community embraces the term Dutchman. Aearthrise (talk) 14:21, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but Stackpole Books has been the subject of discussion over the years on various wikiproject threads (example here) with a number of longtime editors coming to the conclusion that Stackpole books should generally not be used as Sources/References because so many of the company's authors fall under the heading of "self-published" (and are therefore considered as potentially "unreliable sources" by Wikipedia standards). - 47thPennVols (talk) 08:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  What does that have to do with your claim that PA Dutch community considers "Dutchman" to be derogatory? I added 5 citations where PA Dutch use the term Dutchman, but you still have not added a single citation beyond your own words and a Dictionary.com entry; these are inadequate to prove what your claiming. Aearthrise (talk) 14:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• It shows that at least one of your five listed sources may be unreliable. - 47thPennVols (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  You have claimed without a single source that Dutchman is a slur in the Pennsylvania Dutch community. I provided 5 different sources where Pennsylvania Dutch use Dutchman, not at all considering it a slur.

  So far, your only words towards Dutchman being a slur for the Pennsylvania Dutch community are anecdotal, i.e. original research. Do you have any citation to back up your claim? Aearthrise (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

• I've looked more closely at the sources you've been citing, and, quite frankly, I wish I had done so sooner. Of the five sources you have cited in your posts above (and upon which you've apparently based a great deal of the major changes you've made to this article), two may be unreliable and two appear to be irrelevant to our discussion. (Per my earlier post, Stackpole Books has been considered by a number of longtime Wikipedia editors of multiple wikiprojects to be potentially unreliable for several years because of its history of producing self-published books. Masthof books, which also has a history of producing self-published works, may also have similar reliability concerns.) Two of the other sources you've cited (Croll and Pennypacker), which have the most likely notability because they were published by major universities (the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the University of Michigan), were actually published BEFORE World War I and World War II (meaning that they were published before the timeframe during which many members of the Pennsylvania German and Pennsylvania Dutch communities experienced hate and discrimination at home and abroad due to their German heritage, as I had previously mentioned to you). So, they would not be useful in supporting the theory you stated above, "I can only conclude that the Pennsylvania Dutch community still embraces "Dutchman" with respect." - 47thPennVols (talk) 15:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

  You are continually waffling and nitpicking, but you have not yet provided ONE source for your claim. I've alreadt provided 5 sources both historic and recent that demonstrate the usage of Dutchman in regards to the Pennsylvania Dutch community.

  If you're incapable of producing a source for your claim, then admit it, and we can wrap up this discussion. Aearthrise (talk) 15:27, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

*EDIT CONFLICT (I was in the process of submitting this addendum to my 15:20 response to your posts.):

Furthermore, the fifth of your five sources, the Walbert book, while a much more recent publication, also appears to be problematic because it has had some concerning reviews, including from noted historian David L. Weaver-Zercher, Ph.D., assistant provost and professor of American religious history at Messiah College, who identified a number of factual errors in his 2003 review of the book:

"....In addition to interpretive and rhetorical overstatements, the book contains numerous errors of fact. For instance, Old Order farmers who grow tobacco are not prohibited from smoking it, local color novelist Helen Reimensnyder Martin was not Pennsylvania German, and writer-publisher Ammon-Monroe Aurand (not Aumand) was born in Pennsylvania’s Snyder County, not Lancaster County (in fact, much of Aurand’s information about the Amish came not from Lancaster, but from settlements north). Unfortunately, this list of abbreviated factual errors and name misspellings is only representative, which means Walbert’s otherwise helpful book needs to be handled with care...."

I am going to suggest, at this juncture, that, rather than persisting in questioning me about my appropriate removal of a term that is and has been considered an ethnic slur by members of the Pennsylvania German and Pennsylvania Dutch communities, it would be more helpful for you and for Wikipedia's readers if you re-focus your attention on reviewing the article sections you've based on the potentially problematic sources you've been using and, if need be, revise those sections to remove any errors of fact or unsupported speculation they may contain. - 47thPennVols (talk) 16:16, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

You have not proved your claim that Dutchman is a slur in Pennsylvania Dutch community; it is therefore not appropriate to remove the term- this is based on your original research, and not based in reality.

I suggest next time you make an unsubstantiated claim, you find the evidence to back it up. Your attempt to remove the term is completely unjustified. Aearthrise (talk) 16:31, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm asking you, respectfully, to stop now. Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, I have, in fact, presented you with a source that confirms that the terminology you used in the article has been considered a slur. I have presented that source to you twice. I have also documented that, of the five sources you have used to back up your claim that the term you used was not a slur, two were completely irrelevant because they were published before the period when the slur began to be used against Pennsylvania Germans and the Pennsylvania Dutch community, one of your other three sources contains known factual errors, according to at least one prominent historian, and the other two are considered potentially unreliable as sources by multiple, experienced Wikipedia editors because those sources are produced by companies known for publishing the works of self-published authors that are not considered suitable for scholarly research. It is clear from your insistence on pursuing this dialogue, despite the evidence I have presented, that you are unwilling to consider my sincere perspective. Therefore, we must agree to disagree. And because of that, I am, again, asking you to stop, reflect and then move on to another matter deserving of your attention. I will not be continuing this dialogue with you any longer, but do sincerely wish you all the best with your future research. Kind Regards. - 47thPennVols (talk) 17:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Your "perspective", i.e. original research, is invalid; the only citation you've provided is a weak Dictionary.com entry that is not at all related to the Pennsylvania Dutch.

There is nothing to "agree to disagree"- you have not provided sufficient proof for your claim, and your attempts to remove "Pennsylvania Dutchman" from this article are completely unjustified. I shall roll back your last edit. Aearthrise (talk) 18:12, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

You undid my reversion of your post claiming "Ther term "Dutchman" is considered to be a slur by many in the Pennsylvania Dutch community"; either produce reasonable evidence of your claim now, or I shall revert it again.

You cannot make a claim and not back it up with evidence. Aearthrise (talk) 13:11, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Anabaptist isn't synonymous with Pennsylvania Dutch

I'm concerned that the article might be conveying an impression that Anabaptist sects are inherently "Pennsylvania Dutch". The photograph of the Black Mennonites in the article features James and Rowena Lark, African-American converts to Mennonitism. Maybe I am mistaken, but in what way are they Pennsylvania Dutch? I removed their photo from the article on the non-Anabaptist Fancy Dutch because the Larks were Anabaptists who dressed plain. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:54, 30 July 2023 (UTC)