Talk:Penne

19:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)Cal Fallon (talk) i believe that it should be "Penne IS a type of pasta" not "Penne ARE a type of pasta" it makes more sense as IS

I suppose, but only if you're going with the 'American English rules' philosophy of Wikipedia. 'Penne' is a plural form. 99.174.233.4 (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Penne is a plural form, but "a type" is definitely singular. The sentence either needs to be "Penne is a type of pasta..." or "Penne are types of pasta...". I would submit that the latter makes no sense. I could be mistaken, but I doubt very much that the requirement that the plurality of a subjective compliment correspond to its noun is an American idiosyncrasy. If the Queen's English does, in fact, allow disagreement between the subject and its compliment, I would be very interested to know it. (I am somewhat of a casual etymological enthusiast- not greatly educated in such matters, but always eager to learn more.) Jmbpiano (talk) 22:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I concur that the correct complement is 'is' and not 'are', since 'penne' in this case isn't being used as a plural--wouldn't you put this in a similar grammatical category to, say, 'band'--i.e., 'the band is playing' vs. 'the band are playing', since the band refers to a collective group of individuals...I believe it's analogous in this case because penne is also being used to refer to a collective group of certain shapes of pasta--mostaccioli, ziti, rigatoni, etc. etc., and it is the group that is being complemented. Sorry if that doesn't quite make sense, but it's difficult to explain the rule in layman's terms. As Jmbpiano says, it's a type, and should be singular. I also don't think that it's strictly an "American" rule of English. Arabhorse (talk) 02:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

«penne is also being used to refer to a collective group of certain shapes of pasta--mostaccioli, ziti, rigatoni,» really? To me (I am italian), penne (in italian the word is plural and requires "sono"="are", but italian is not english) are not ziti, nor rigatoni (and in all italian regions I frequent "mostaccioli" are a kind of "cake")... Penne are penne...

Penne are plural, like clams: the singular forced upon this article makes it sound tone deaf.The idea that one might look deep within one self to establish "logical" usage, is a basic flaw of American public education. As for imagining you'd have to say "Penne are types of pasta..." instead of Penne are a type of pasta", you need only think of Clams are always a welcome first course. Too bad about this article.--Wetman (talk) 23:36, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Penna is singular in Italian, but not English. All pasta types are plural in Italian. Spaghetti (little strings) is plural of "spaghetto" in Italian. But you don't hear people say "spaghetti are a type of pasta," because in English, it is treated as a mass noun. Penne is both singular, plural and a mass (or non count) noun. So, we need to look at the context to determine which verb form to use. Here is an example.

"Some nouns can serve as both count and mass nouns. The noun war is an example. In War is ghastly, war is a mass noun, whereas in The wars between Rome and Carthage were ruinous, war is used as a count noun."

(James R. Hurford, Grammar: A Student's Guide. Cambridge Univ. Press, 1994)

"Grain" is another example, we can have "grains of rice" or a "bushel of grain." Another example of a noun that can be either mass or plural is "hair." I may "pluck three hairs from my head," but I would say, "my hair is wet," rather than "my hairs are wet," when speaking of it in its entirety. But with "penne" we have the added complication of the singular and plural being spelled the same, so we can't just look at the noun to determine which form of the verb is proper, we must consider the context.

So, when we speak of "penne" in a general sense, I believe it should be treated as a mass noun, which takes a singular form and verb agreement. If we were cooking, we might use the plural form, as in "Cook the penne until they are al dente." But even in this case I would not agonize over someone treating it as a mass noun (... until it is al dente), especially if they were preparing a large quantity for a catering event.Cal Fallon (talk) 19:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah that should write like that. 2600:100C:A110:762D:D988:FE52:ADF5:6953 (talk) 13:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

.

Pronunciation?

How do you pronounce "penne?" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.226.79.33 (talk) 01:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

pen-NAY CrazyAwesome (talk) 03:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it "Pen-neh" ? Italian has very close pronnounciation as Spanish and that's how we'd say it. 68.62.233.226 (talk) 17:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I've always heard it as "PEN-nay", with the emphasis on the first syllable instead of the second syllable. Italian is close to Spanish, but I think the emphasis is a difference on many words that are otherwise very similar in pronunciation.Arabhorse (talk) 02:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

"Pen-neh" (with rapid tempo) seems right to me. At any rate the Italian pronunciation should be added to the IPA listing, and certainly have priority as the correct over local UK/USA pronunciations. (I am uncertain of the correct transcription.) Disclaimer: I have heard a lot of native Italians speek, but I am not myself one.188.100.201.142 (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Correct Italian pronunciation is Pen - neh. In Italian the letter "E" never sounds "ee". Same for "Sala - meh", "Lingui - neh" and other distorted English pronunciations.

--Stefano Virgilli (talk) 09:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Saint Louis

Mostaccioli is a staple in the St. Louis area at all weddings, barbecues, and pretty much any other type of event, casual or otherwise. Also in St. Louis, it's pronounced "mus-ka-CHO-li" even if people know how it's supposed to be pronounced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.131.21 (talk) 15:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm from Chicago and St. Louis sounds very similar culturally, except for the pronunciation (musk vs. must). Was that a typo, or do people really pronounce it 'muskaCHOli'? Is it one of those things like 'Missourah' vs. 'Missourey'? I've always heard it as "mus-ta-CHO-li" (I refuse to use the phonetic alphabet, lol).Arabhorse (talk) 02:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, this is a St Louis phenomenon. Particularly in the southern parts of the city and county. If the event is held in a venue that doubles as a gymnasium, the odds of the "k" pronunciation are increased to a near certainty. Even more so if served in Styrofoam bowls from an electric dutch oven or Sterno heated steam table pans. However, I was recently at fairly nice "Italian" restaurant in South County, with entrees upwards of $30, and was asked if I would like a side of "muskacholi" with my dinner.Cal Fallon (talk) 19:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Not a typo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.48.146.159 (talk) 18:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, do we really need request for a citation for the fact that Mostaccioli is served in Cafeterias and at Weddings? I'd think it would take the Rules Lawyers longer to add "Citation Needed" to the article than to find & add a citation. Hell, I'm sure it's taking longer for me to add this note then it will take me to add multiple citations. Please think before just adding "Citation Needed" to an article; you're not improving things, you're just being a red tape Bureaucrat. 66.161.82.230 (talk) 15:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

^^^ Amen to that. Cal Fallon (talk) 19:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

However, if the word is borrowed from italian: in standard italian we never change t into k (c), so t is always /t/. In italian (in all the cousin tradition I know about), the "mostacciolo" is a kind of sweet thing ("dolce"), cake, not a kind of pasta. Unless some pasta producer decided to call a type of pasta that way (for the market outside Italy), but it is out of traditional names of food (I stress it again: in all traditions I know about and the etimology is from latin mustaceum, from mustum, meaning must, and in fact the classical description is "cake made with flour mixed with honey or baked must, raisins, dried figs, chopped almonds). No matter what "mostaccioli" are for you, the italian pronounciation looks like /mostat't∫ɔli/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.27.144.63 (talk) 10:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The origin of the word is often described as being Italian for "little mustaches," but the Italian for "mustache" is "baffi," so this etymology is dubious. This may be a case of an English word "pidginized," by giving it an Italian suffix and pluralization. This likely occurred in Italian American culture as a means to market penne to a broader demographic. Whatever the source, the name has stuck and the term is widespread in the US. Supermarket shelves across the country are stocked with penne lisce labeled "mostaccioli."

As to the "K" pronunciation, there is no rhyme or reason to the St Louis dialect. You should hear how we butcher our French street names. Cal Fallon (talk) 21:23, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Pictures

The pictures shown are absolutely actually Penne rigate, should the picture caption state this? Hogan (talk) 22:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

What the crap?

"In many recipes, it's facing me real TV".... How does this make sense? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.191.230 (talk) 19:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Baked Ziti

Baked ziti is not exclusively Italian-American. I have a recipe for "Zite Arrosto" (Roasted ziti) from Italy, which is almost exactly the same as American baked ziti. It may be more popular in the US, but it certainly exists in Italy. I do not know where the recipe originates, but calling it "Italian-American" makes it sound like it's from North America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.58.41.13 (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Italian-American is its own cuisine -- a sub-genre if you will -- which developed in the US over years since the beginning of the 20th Century. True Italian cuisine, while it has similarities, is different from Italian-American in a few major ways: First, you rarely see pasta an meat on the same plate in Italy. Italians cook the meat as a separate course, typically served after the pasta course. Spaghetti and Meatballs, for example, is Italian-American, not true Italian. Second, complex Italian dishes (timables, lasagnes, etc.) are mainly special occasion foods (i.e. holidays) where-as baked pasta dishes like (Baked Ziti) can be found on Italian-American tables, and in restaurants, on any given day. Baked Ziti, as it is described in the article, is an Italian-American specialty, created by Italian immigrants to the East Coast, and eventually moved westward. It is, more or less, an eastern US dish that has taken the form of baked rigatoni and baked mostaccoli in other parts of the country. I grew up in Cleveland, where rigatoni was the main casserole form we're talking about, and in Chicago (where I live now) it's most commonly mostaccoli. In NYC-New Jersey area, ziti is the prominent version, and before the advent of shows like The Sopranos, you rarely heard of ziti outside of the Italian neighborhoods west of Pennsylvania.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 02:47, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

“Italian” cuisine is too broad a term as well. There may in fact be more local and regional variations in Italian cooking as in Italian-American cooking. For example, in my traditions (central Sicilian) is is customary to serve the meat (usually pork neck bones) used to flavor the gravy (sauce) on a separate plate to be eaten WITH the pasta course. In the North or even in Rome or Tuscany, this would be regarded as barbaric. While Butter is widely used in the North, it is all but non existent in the deep south. Spinach is the preferred green in the north and cetral party of Italy, escarole or other chicory are more widely used in the south. Generally you will find that Italian American cooking urban areas of the northeastern US come the closest to authentic Italian cuisine, mostly reflection southern and east central traditions. For the record, Cut ziti and Rigatoni are the default penne pastas in southern Italy, Mostaccoli is all but unheard of south of Napoli Cosand (talk) 16:30, 1 May 2012 (UTC) Ziti redirects here, but there is nothing (no longer anything?) about Ziti in the article. If y'all redirect an term, put in at least one sentence in the article, so that one can find out why. 99.11.160.111 (talk) 00:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

UK pronunciation

I have never heard "penne" pronounced /ˈpɛniː/ in the UK, only /ˈpɛneɪ/. It is not impossible that a minority of people say it that way, but it is surely not the standard pronunciation, and I would like to see a source if we are to have it listed. I've removed it and left /ˈpɛneɪ/ as the general English pronunciation. Credulity (talk) 13:22, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

In italian we never miss the double consonant (dialects apart), it's an important distinctive trait. In this case /ˈpɛneɪ/ could sound more like the italian word for penis (which is written as "pene").

Redirect from Ziti

I wonder why there's a redirect from Ziti (moreover, protected!!). "Penne" and "Ziti" are two different kind of pasta. If anyone lands here redirected from english Ziti, take a look at the italian page for it:Ziti. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.27.144.63 (talk) 09:36, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate this as I arrived here with this exact purpose - I found no Ziti at my local store and substituted Penne. Yet I still wondered what Zini was and was redirected here, where it isn't mentioned except that it's redirected here and a link (which also redirects here). — Preceding unsigned comment added by LarrySDonald (talk • contribs) 22:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

It's is a common misconception. Penne its a type of pasta, while Ziti it's a dish made from Bucatini. You can't find ziti pasta in the store- it does not exist. 50.9.97.53 (talk) 03:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Except you can. At least in American supermarkets, you can find ziti and penne. The ziti seem to not have frills. Jason Quinn (talk) 02:31, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

zitti is not penne

please refer from putting zitti in this article. zitti is not penne. feel free to create new article for zitti. they are not the same at all. they are diferent kind of pasta or even dish. 50.9.97.53 (talk) 07:58, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello @50.9.97.53: Thanks for discussing it on article's talk page rather than getting involved in an edit wat. I'm requesting you to provide sources so that your suggested changes could be made. Regards, Anupmehra -Let's talk! 08:02, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I will wait someone to interfere as you've been involved in an edit war now. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 08:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Penne and mostaccioli??

I'm from Italy and I'm very surprised to know that penne is known as mostaccioli in the US. Why do you guys call it that?? Here mostaccioli is a type of pastry from Southern Italy, it has nothing to do with pasta as a whole: I really don't know how this word's come to refer to any kind of pasta over there but I even noticed that Barilla sell their penne lisce ("smooth penne") by the name of mostaccioli in the United States.... By the way, the etymology of the noun mostaccioli is not from mustache but from the root mosto ("must") and its derivative mostaccio ("made with must"), indicating an ingredient used to make the original mostaccioli recipe in early times. You can find a good source for this etymology in a Google e-book (https://books.google.it/books?id=gyCn0s-dgOgC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=mustaceus&source=bl&ots=Z-Yrwrnv_T&sig=zbjL0ATUsgVCMmZ1lZPVCjMB380&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBmoVChMI97_gqKKRyQIVC1YaCh02mQtX#v=onepage&q=mustaceus&f=false) where the noun goes by its Latin cognate mustaceus and is translated as "doused with mustum (must)".--Teno85 (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2015 (UTC)