Talk:Pen y Fan

Untitled

I am assuming you meant that looking east or west AT THAT LATITUDE there are no higher peaks until the ones mentioned. There are certainly points in the Alps and Rockies that are higher, perhaps even in the Appalachians and Massif Central too.

I've removed it. It can't be the former, because McKinley is considerably further north than Pen y Fan (61 degrees versus 51), and it can't be the latter - as you say, the Appalachians are higher than Pen y Fan. Varitek 15:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Added the point re the Tommy Jones memorial. The point that the memorial is on the route from the Storey Arms is from memory so might not be 100% correct. Alunwyn 12:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There's an obelisk marked on the OS maps on the ridge NW of Corn Du, which looks like a reasonable route from the Storey Arms to me. Is there any chance of a reference for the Tommy Jones story, by the way? --Stemonitis 13:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct spelling

I've reverted this back to Pen y Fan, as I believe that is the correct Welsh spelling. It is spelled as such on the official OS maps, any literature from the Brecon Beacons national park and the relevant mountain rescue teams! Younger2007 (talk) 16:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The spelling Pen-y-fan is the correct form in Welsh (just for the record, I am a Welsh translator). Ordnance survey maps and other sources often perpetuate incorrect spellings of Welsh place names. Thomani9

It may seem counter-intuitive, but in Wikipedia, what is important is what can be verified, not what is true. It is easy to provide sources for "Pen y Fan" (e.g. the OS); what sources can you provide for Pen-y-fan? — ras52 (talk) 00:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Pen Y fan is the highest peak in the whole of south wales

Tommy Jones story

2 years later another 5 year old boy called Willy LLewellyn from Aberaman went missing in the next valley. After a big search by the whole community and after about 2 weeks his body was found up on Rigos mountain. I wonder if there is a connection? Here is a photo [[1]] and here is its location. [[2]] Also interestingly if Tommy Jones was visiting his granparents and was travelling from the Rhondda he would have travelled over the Rigos mountain. Having been to both locations I find it hard to imagine how a 5 year old could climb to these locations on their own and for it to happen twice in 2 years. The road between both locations is about 14 miles. I know this might not be relevant but thought that someone might read it and find it interesting.Thatsitivehadenough (talk) 11:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Translation

Does Pen y Fan really translate to Top of the beacon ? Obscurasky (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Changed to a slightly different translation; not perfect, but better that previous. Obscurasky (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I recently changed the translation to 'top of the hill/beacon', but it has been reverted to ' Top of this place - loose translation'. Both translations agree on pen meaning 'top'. The fan must be a mutated form, either of man 'place' or ban 'hill, beacon'. The standard dictionary of the Welsh language (Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru) lists Pen-y-fan as including an example of ban 'top, tip, point, summit, crest, peak, beacon, height, pinnacle, turret, hill, mountain, bare hill'. So Pen y Fan may be translated as 'top of the hill/beacon'. The same word ban (in its plural form) is found in the Welsh name of the Brecon Beacons: Bannau Brycheiniog. So although 'beacon' is not the usual word in English for a hill, there is an argument for using it in this translation, hence 'hill/beacon'. Other wordings ('summit, crest, peak' etc.) might be possible, of course, so I won't change it at once in case there are other views. Troellwr (talk) 19:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

It was me who changed the translation from Top of the beacon, back in 2009. I'm Welsh, but not a Welsh speaker and I asked the opinion of friends who are, before making the change. Having said that, my main reason for reverting your edit was that it implies a direct translation exists, when it does not. As a compromise I'd be happy just to see 'loose translation' (or some other equivalent term) reinstated. Obscurasky (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks for the comments. Could I just ask what you mean when you say that a direct translation does not exist? The translation given on the basis of Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru is a direct one (as far as I can see). Of course, there's more than one way of translating almost everything. But 'loose translation' would suggest to me something that isn't a word-for-word translation, which 'top of the hill/beacon' is. Troellwr (talk) 23:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Well it is what it is? 'Pen-Y-Fan' does not directly translate to 'top of the beacon' and few people (Welsh speaking or otherwise) would readily recognise it as such. Actually, on that point, I think it might be useful to readers if you could also consider adding something to the main body of the article explaining the mutation, and including the citation you referred to?Obscurasky (talk) 09:03, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Have added a section on the name in the body of the article.Troellwr (talk) 13:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Race

The Pen y fan race info was added to the intro. I tried to give it its own section but now all the photos overlap the text and stuff. Can someone please help me as I don't know how to remedy it? Thanks. Thatsitivehadenough (talk) 09:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I've tried to fix it, but I'm afraid it's not much better... leaving the help tag for a more competent person. sonia^♫♪ 10:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for having a go Sonia. It is better than it was. Thatsitivehadenough (talk) 14:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

On my screen it looks good. I'm marking this as helped. If an issue still exists (that maybe I'm not seeing) please feel free to re-add {{helpme}}. --ANowlin: talk 15:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

That got me thinking so I just viewed it in IE and you are right it does look great. But in Firefox (my usual browser) it is not quite right. So Firefox would seem to have a problem! Thatsitivehadenough (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Panorama

I'm not comfortable with the long list of viewable features. They seem fanciful to me unless someone has photographic evidence.

Having been up there many a time I can vouch for :

Bristol Channel, Swansea Bay, the Gower Peninsular, the Black Mountains, the Cambrian Mountains, the town of Brecon and much of Mid Wales and the South Wales Valleys can be seen

but NOT - "Exmoor or the islands of Flat Holm and Steep Holm), Cardigan Bay"

A minor point but one which should be clarified I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigelpm (talk • contribs) 23:26, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I seem to remember seeing a map up there showing you what you could see in different directions. I'll go back up there and take a photo of it. Thatsitivehadenough (talk) 23:29, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Mountain?

Is it, or is it not high enough? Depending on the definition... Well, it's less than 1000 meters... Any comments? Also "Parent peak = Snowdon"? That can't be right? Snowdon is miles away. 92.16.199.153 (talk) 09:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Southern UK

Pen y Fan is the highest peak" "in the southern United Kingdom".

Though if this is the case, then in my opinion, Snowdon is not in the northern UK, but in central or mid UK. Since Snowdon's summit[1]is in latitude[3] 70.882 miles[4] south of Ordnance Survey's centre of the UK[2]. Since Snowdon is south of Ordnance Survey's centre of the UK it cannot be in the northern UK. Furthermore Snowdon is at the same latitude as Newark-on-Trent, and in latitude only 3 miles north of Nottingham. Using Google Earth, from Snowdon in a straight line to: Land's End 219 miles; Lizard Point 220 miles; Pednathise Head, Isles of Scilly 243 miles; John o' Groats 387 miles; Dunnet Head 388 miles; Out Stack, Shetland 552 miles. Ordnance Survey's centre of the UK is at SD 41575 66760. This centre's latitude[2] passes through Hest Bank just north-east of Morecambe, Bishop Monkton, Boroughbridge, Bridlington. However if the UK is divided only into northern and southern, using the latitude of the Ordnance Survey centre of the UK, then Snowdon and therefore also Snowdonia are obviously in the southern UK. Pen y Fan is the highest peak" "in the southern United Kingdom". Similar statements are repeated fairly often, can anyone explain exactly what is meant? If this implies that Snowdon, Snowdonia, and North Wales are in the northern UK, then I very much disagree, it would seem to me to be an England & Wales centric opinion, (incidentally Scotland constitutes 32%+ of the land area of the UK), and how would anyone come to such a conclusion? How can a location that is well south of the centre of the UK be in the northern UK? In my opinion North Wales is not in the northern UK, and parts of northern England are not in the northern UK, i.e. northern England does not necessarily equate with the northern UK. Anyone studying a map of the UK, will in my opinion, rapidly come to the conclusion that North Wales is not in the northern UK.

1. Summit of Snowdon latitude WGS84 53.068496°N or 53°04’06.5856”N from The Database of British and Irish Hills. 2. Ordnance Survey's centre of the UK SD 41575 66760 = latitude ETRS89 (WGS84) 54.093420°N or 54°05’36.311365”N. 3. That is due north-south. For example using the latitude of this OS centre and Snowdon, plus using the same longitude for both latitudes, then calculating the distance using a geodesic calculator. 4. Calculated using the GeodSolve geodesic calculator, using the OSGB36 latitudes derived from grid references, and Airy 1830 ellipsoid. Sulasgeir (talk) 23:22, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It is oft repeated Sulasgeir, not least by the national park authority. The statement is more in the way of asserting its pre-eminence in height away from the major mountain ranges further north ie Snowdonia, Lake District and the Scottish Highlands - rather than an absolute truth in the clinical way that you have outlined above. You are of course right that the peak shares both the southern half of the UK and indeed the southern third of the UK (if divided latitudinally into 3) with Snowdonia - in fact it seems that the Lake District also falls within the southern half of the UK, since the UK extends from Muckle Flugga in the north of Shetland to St Agnes in Scilly. I suppose it might be argued that the word 'southern' can be interpreted loosely - not all examples of north and south across the world are equal - think of the southern US for example where if you include Alaska (as one must) then all of the contiguous southern states are in the southern US - a perspective which would surprise those living in Washington state or New York. It would perhaps be better though in this case to refer to Pen y Fan as 'often being described as being in the southern UK' - that would be true (and include a citation for that oft-repeated description). cheers Geopersona (talk) 05:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I should clarify that if dividing the UK into two halves latitudinally then it is the mid-point of the north-south axis which is cited as running east-west through Haltwhistle in the North Pennines that is the key measure here and not the centroid which is in Morecambe Bay - see Centre_points_of_the_United_Kingdom. cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

"footpath from the Storey arms"

No explanation is given for what 'the Storey Arms' is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.67.63.122 (talk) 17:15, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Just maybe it was "once a coaching inn on the Brecon to Merthyr road"? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:30, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Found a couple of references to Storey Arms. According to them, “The Storey Arms is Cardiff’s outdoor education centre.”[3] As to its history, COFLEIN says, “The Storey Arms Inn … was a large inn with a pitched slate roof and lean-to additions... [with] a central porch with pitched slate roof. The inn was demolished in 1924.”[4] Brecon Beacons National Park say, it was “Named after local landowner Storey Maskelyne.”[5]. I'm not sure if it warrants a stand-alone article, or is even important enough to include on this page. What do other editors think? Daicaregos (talk) 11:15, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd been considering this just yesterday. I think it is well-known enough to warrant its own article - I'd expect that most people in South Wales and a sizeable percentage of the UK's outdoor community know of it, and it's often in the news (as this week) due to snow either closing the A470 at this spot of large numbers of the public arriving there to sledge/climb Pen y Fan and causing parking chaos! However it could just be put in as a section in the Pen y Fan article as the two are almost always encountered together - a redirect from 'Pen y fan' to that section would take interested folk there. The term Storey Arms is used to refer to a) the original inn, b) Cardiff's outdoor centre (which is a few hundred yards from the site of the inn) and c) it is a stand-in for the name of this high pass taking the A470. cheers Geopersona (talk) 13:43, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it belongs as a clear section here, with a redirect to it, but not as a stand-alone article. It doesn't really do much that doesn't involve Pen-y-Fan. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both. I'll add something on it now. Daicaregos (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I have a couple of other things to add, but that's enough for tonight.

I have the location co-ordinates for Storey Arms / Pont ar Daf. Does anyone know if these can be added to a section without disrupting the co-ordinates for the page? Daicaregos (talk) 20:00, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Mention might also be made of the WWII 'stop-line' (anti-tank blocks and pillboxes etc) which most visitors will see when arriving at Pont ar Daf for the Beacons Way access up Pen y Fan. More on coflein about it. Plenty of WK-copyright-compatible images at http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/SN9819. cheers Geopersona (talk) 21:39, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

World of Minecraft? Certainly worth adding. I've never really understood what a stop line was doing that far North. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

'World of Minecraft'? - you've lost me there Andy - am I missing some cultural reference?! Anyway, there are similar lines of anti-tank blocks across the Talybont valley and near Bwlch Bryn-rhudd at the top of the Swansea Valley which were put in place, as I'm told, to slow down any enemy incursion towards the strategically important coalfield valleys from the north, the supposition being that they'd have landed on the Cardigan Bay coast. I believe some of the thinking was also to buoy up morale on the homefront. I'll try to find a reference for some of this though. Geopersona (talk) 11:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Found this https://charlesenright.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/storey-arms-anti-invasion-defences/ - though it contradicts what I just said as regards direction of attack. cheers Geopersona (talk) 11:54, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Here's a photo. [6]

They're a line of yard cube concrete blocks (hence Minecraft) at Pont ar Daf on the North bank of the Taf Fawr, just South of Storey Arms. The obvious purpose is to slow tanks moving North along the valley and the line of the A470. Two brick-built pillboxes cover the crossing, although they're quite small - MG / Boys rifle in one and a section post with a row of rifle embrasures. The works and the bridge can be dated quite well (there are inscribed dates) - the defences are Summer 1940, height of the invasion fears, and the bridge was rebuilt in 1942. When rebuilt, after the invasion fears were largely over, it became more of an earth bank over some buried conduits. It's a very solid bridge now, and cheaply made, but a bridge built in these defences during a time of ongoing crisis would surely have been built more lightly, in a way that was easy to demolish? There are gun pits dug in just North of them too, although I've heard these only appeared in the '70s(?) and Marines training here would practice ambushing the A470 with a Wombat!

What I don't understand is that it's a great place to stop tanks advancing on Brecon, but also that any attack here has come from landings around Bridgend that have already made it North all the way through the coalfields, steelworks and Merthyr Tydfil. That's not resisting an invasion, that's a last redoubt between the Druids and the Ghurkas. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm done. Welcome to add your 'minecraft' info. Any thoughts on adding location co-ordinates without disrupting the page? Daicaregos (talk) 18:17, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

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