Talk:Pedal steel guitar

List of Pedal Steel players

Removing Junior Brown because his steel guitar doesn't have pedals. Same for David Gilmour.JSC ltd 01:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup overdue

Just a note to let y'all know that in a week or so I'm going to go through this section and clear out all the {{fact}}-tagged entries. Folks have had plenty of time to find references (or write articles on all the red links). +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a little cleanup of that section today. I found online references for all the {{fact}}-tagged entries that had such, and I deleted the ones without any available information. I also removed some more non-pedal steel players; at least David Gilmour wasn't one of them this time! I didn't try to make judgments about who is "notable" and who isn't. I maintain that there should be an objective standard for this. Maybe we can come up with a good test someday.  : ) I agree that redlinked articles need to be written, but I don't agree that there should be some kind of time expectation for that. I think it's okay to keep the redlink as a way to encourage knowledgeable users to write articles. JSC ltd 16:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"Notable Pedal Steel Guitar Players"

I can't take it anymore. The constant inclusion and reinclusion of every man Jack who may be known to the world at large to have touched something remotely like a steel guitar (pedals or no) must end! For that purpose, I suggest the following test.

1. "Notable" means that the person in question has contributed substantially to the invention, modifications, idiomatic technique, or fame/notorioty/popularity of the instrument, AND has influenced other such people. For example, Buddy Emmons has contributed mechanical innovations. His playing changed the way other players thought about the instrument. He also established the PSG as a solo instrument in its own right. He didn't innovate the concept of putting pedals on a steel guitar, but he standardized the layout and function of those pedals, as well as established the most common tuning. Buddy Emmons is "notable."

2. "Pedal Steel Guitar" means the instrument this person plays or played is a steel guitar that has at least one pedal. A pedal is a lever that the player pushes with his or her foot and thereby changes the tuning of the instrument. No pedals = no pedal steel guitar. For example, Steve Howe plays steel guitar on many Yes songs, but since he used a lap steel, he doesn't go on this list.

3. "Pedal Steel Guitar Player" means a person whose contibution to the realm of pedal steel guitar is a primary result of the music they made using the instrument or the exposure that music had, either in terms of the artist's longevity or citation among other players, or record sales and concert attendance. For example, if Sri Chinmoy happens to *ahem* play a PSG at many of his concerts, which are attended by thousands of people, he still would not belong on the list because whatever influence he has is not a primary result of his PSG playing.

Before including a player on the list of Notable [Pedal Steel Guitar] Players, run them through the test and see if his or her inclusion is justified. If you include a player that turns out to be redlinked, either 1. provide a good Wikipedia link to the (notable) band or whatever the player is or was a part of, 2. write an article about them, so their name won't be redlinked, or 3. don't include them because they aren't notable. Remember that not everybody with a website is "notable." We could probably stand to do the same for the Manufacturer's section.... JSC ltd 17:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This page is indeed a mess. I went through and removed all the external links, and I'd suggest that somebody (I might sometime) go through and look at the manufacturers and players. If there's a plausible case for notability, then keep it. Otherwise, remove it. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 18:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Jerry Garcia: notable or not?

Of all the people who arguably could be included on the list, Garcia is the most problematic. Although there are good reasons to add him, I don't believe that ultimately we can. Now that someone has seen fit to re-include him, I think we should discuss whether or not adding him is a good idea. I also think we should abide by the test I advocated above, and that we should discuss that as well (separately). I don't know how to set up the poll thingy, so if somebody does, please do so. Until then, I'll just start the discussion here.

Until we can reach a consensus about the test, I don't feel that I can single-handedly apply that test to everyone listed and accept or reject them as they meet the criteria of the test. However, I think that test is the best way to determine notability, and so I'll use it as a basis to set forth my views in this discussion. JSC ltd 20:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Include Garcia on the list of Notable Pedal Steel Guitar Players?

No. In the early '70s, the pedal steel guitar was for the most part an instrument encountered only by Country music listeners.

The previous statement is absurd. Pedal Steel Guitar is a cornerstone of Country-Rock which had its genesis in 1968 with "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" by the Byrds and other works of that year. By the early 1970s, the instrument was prevalent in the Popular music of the day in addition to Country.

Garcia brought it to a more mainstream (or at least larger) audience through his work with Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, as well as his work with the Grateful Dead and New Riders of the Purple Sage. However, I don't think he is a "Notable Pedal Steel Guitar Player. To reach this conclusion, I'll apply the test above. First, whatever notability he has derives from his work with the Grateful Dead as that band's leader, lead guitarist, singer, and songwriter. The fact that he also played PSG in that band does not contribute to his notability; it's really more of an interesting footnote. If he had only, or mostly (or even half the time) played PSG in that band, there could be a legitimate argument that his PSG playing contributed to his notability. As it was, though, he played it on only a small number of songs on two albums (Workingman's Dead and American Beauty, as well as some session work, and a handful of shows from 1970, 1971, and 1986. He does meet the second requirement of the test in that he did play an actual pedal steel guitar with actual pedals; however, he must also meet the other two criteria to make the list. Third, his contributions to the instrument's popularity were not a primary result of his work with that instrument. He was a popular guitarist who also played pedal steel guitar, and while his popularity no doubt contributed to that instrument's exposure to a broader audience than that instrument had previously enjoyed, that exposure was not due to his pedal steel guitar playing. Rather, it was incidental to his other abilities as a guitarist, singer, songwriter, and band leader. Because he fails the test of a Notable Pedal Steel Guitar Player, he should not be included on this list. JSC ltd 20:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No. The list is of notable pedal steel players. Garcia isn't one, even though it's true he did play on the instrument, and even occasionally make recordings with it. This does not a notable pedal steel player make. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes What makes you the be-all decider of what is "pedal steel"? The fact is that the single most recognizable work of pedal steel guitar in modern popular music is Garcia's playing on CSN&Y's "Teach Your Children". For that reason only Garcia meets the criteria of being notable. You wrote points 1, 2, and 3 above. That doesn't make them the end of discussion. Fact, Garcia played pedal steel. Fact, his work is very notable. Did he influence other players? Hard to say but I question why that criteria has to be in the list. The list is "Notable Pedal Steel Guitar Players", It is not "Influential Pedal Steel Guitar Players".

I dispute what you wrote. How do you back up your assertion that "Teach Your Children" is the "single most recognizable work of pedal steel guitar in modern popular music"? That's a stretch, and in any case a subjective evaluation. But in any case, even if that were true, a one-hit wonder, as Garcia would be in this case, does not a notable musician make. In order to be a notable pedal steel player, one would need to have a sustained career playing the instrument, which Garcia clearly does not. Mind you, I've got nothing against Jerry Garcia; he simply doesn't belong here, any more than that other guy people keep adding here (David Gilmour) does. +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If I thought that I was the "be-all decider of what makes pedal steel," I would have deleted Garcia--and a lot of other names--from the list without allowing any input from you or anyone else. You're certainly entitled to your opinion with respect to Garcia, and I'm glad you shared it. I use the little test I devised to clearly articulate my opinion, and provide logical criteria whereby we can disscuss what makes someone "notable." If I thought that my use of this test meant the end of discussion, I would have deleted Garcia--and a lot of other names--from the list after articulating my position. "Influence" is an aspect of notability, but I think that if the list were "Influential Pedal Steel Guitar Players," that's the only way Garcia would be included. There is no doubt that he increased exposure to the instrument to a much larger audience than it had previously enjoyed; see my previous post. There is also no doubt that he was not a pedal steel guitar player. He was a guitarist who dabbled, creatively and reasonably well, on the pedal steel, and that's how he is generally remembered. JSC ltd 21:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Garcia, Gilmour... stay off the list. When I think of Garcia, pedal-steel does not come to my mind, unless I think back, and even then, it was a minor part of his musical contributions. BTW- I appreciate this test. I would have added Hank DeVito from Emmylou Harris' "Hot Band", but seeing this, I certainly would Not include him. I think folks should also ask the same question that I did when considering an addition- when you think of them, does pedal steel come right away to mind? If so, why?

Question: Slide guitarists have a list and notation on their page since slide guitair isn't an instrument. I expected to find something similar for steel guitar, so I'm wondering about that. --leahtwosaints (talk) 03:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your question, since pedal steel guitar is a bona fide instrument, while "slide guitar" is not, as you note. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I came to this article trying to find out if David Gilmour used a pedal steel or lap steel on Dark Side of the Moon. The fact that neither article mentions it is ridiculous. Sure, David Gilmour, John Lennon, and George Harrisson were not purely pedal steel players, but that doesn't mean they weren't notable, and played pedal steel. Just mention that these people did other things musically. Stop being so precious about both instruments, and include significant lap and pedal steel playing! Billyshiverstick (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Reinstated

I reinstated Ton Masseurs because of his influence in the netherlands and europe. Maestrodrst 20:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Your edit resulted in a massive disruption of the article, including the loss of a lot of material from the text. (I undid it.) Did you just revert back to an earlier version? If so, that's not the way to accomplish things like "reinstating" one item; you have to edit it by hand. +ILike2BeAnonymous 00:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but, I did do it by hand, and I only retyped his name. 62.166.39.107 10:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I added a source, it's not the best but It'll have to do until I find a online version of some newspaper and music maker articles. Maestrodrst 10:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I was just looking for some online information about Masseurs. I found a lot of links to this page, and his Wikipedia article, using google.nl. The single article about The Tumbleweeds (at http://www.popinstituut.nl/biografie/tumbleweeds.5889.html) that I found lists him as "lapsteel." All in all, he seems to be more notable as a producer than as a PSG player. The Dutch language version of Wikipedia doesn't even have an article about him (see http://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ton_Masseurs&action=edit). I dispute that he is notable. Please provide sources to back up your assertion that he is a notable PSG player. Based on what I have found in my research, he is not. JSC ltd (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

As was stated in the scource I added at the time, he was one of the first pedal steel guitarist in the netherlands, he popularised the instrument and was also the most important PSG session player on albums produced in the netherlands. The article at the pop instituut is wrong since he didn't play lapsteel, but the editors there do not know the diffrence. There is indeed no dutch article about him at the time but there is an article about the band his band the tumbleweeds. 62.166.39.107 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I looked pretty hard to find a source for Ton Masseurs's notability. I couldn't find a single one that was about Masseurs as a player, rather than as a producer. If there is something you can point to that says he is notable, like a book, magazine article, or reliable online source, we can include him on the notable list; otherwise, I am afraid he doesn't belong there. The source you added last time isn't in the article anymore, for whatever reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JSC ltd (talk • contribs) 01:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

De telegraaf National news paper in the summer of 1974. 62.166.39.107 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Image

We badly need a photo for this! Andrewa 18:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

{{Photo requested|musical instruments}}

You sure said it! I still don't know the difference between the instrument even after watching pedal steel guitar players like Lloyd Maines, sitting at what appears to be a table, until you see him picking at strings and such, compared to other stringed (versions?), or even other instruments like dobro. Please someone, add some photos for clarification!! If I'm not always sure (and I try to pay attention and learn), then what of random readers??! --leahtwosaints (talk) 17:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This article has some nice photos of the instrument, but it needs a closeup photo of a player holding the steel. A diagram showing how the pedals affect the strings would also be helpful (or a pair of closeup photos with pedal up and pedal down). (BTW, I have moved the {{Photo requested}} template to the top.) --Jtir (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Rem links

• Nashville Chamber Orchestra http://www.nco.org/
• Gary Morse http://resophonicrecords.com/aboutgary.html
• Paul Gambill http://www.nco.org/artists/gambill.htm

If these are encyclopedic, then they deserve pages of their own, and if not, the links don't belong here. Andrewa 09:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Rem text

The lap steel guitar and the dobro are usually played in similar fashion in that they are laid horizontally and the string's pitch is controlled by a slide or bar rather than by pressing them to frets.

This belongs in those articles, and is already well covered there. Here it is just confusing IMO. Andrewa 22:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comment above by the request for photographs of the instrument, or even other versions or similar instruments for those who are ignorant, like myself. --leahtwosaints (talk) 17:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Dobro as Second Instrument

I removed the text because

1. It has been cite tagged for five months.

2. I feel like that's long enough to leave unsourced material in the lead with no change in citation, especially when that material is not particularly relevant to the lead.

3. Even among those on our list of "Notable pedal steel guitarists," only three list Dobro as a second instrument (Franklin, Jackson and Leisz).

4. I tried to find a source for this information myself, and could not. FWIW.

JSC ltd (talk) 22:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm re-removing this text for the reasons listed above. JSC ltd (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Players on Notable list not "notable?"

I want to discuss the inclusion of a few names on the list (please duck the worms flying from the can I just opened...). Those folks are:

1. Ken Greer

2. Daniel Lanois

3. Barbara Mandrell

4. Casey Prestwood

5. Nick Zala

6. Ton Masseurs

7. John Neff —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpac007 (talk • contribs) 18:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, I want to address Lanois and Mandrell because their Wikipedia articles either mention PSG in passing (Lanois) or not at all (Mandrell). If they are not notable PSG players to the point that the instrument is barely mentioned in the articles about them, are they really "notable PSG players?" I argue that the answer is no. I want to address Greer, Masseurs, Prestwood and Zala because they don't pass the test. Thoughts? JSC ltd (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Seeing no opinions on the matter, I am removing these folks from the list of notable players. JSC ltd (talk) 16:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The article on Barbara Mandrell talks about her playing steel guitar, which is different from pedal steel guitar. If her pedal steel guitar playing is not even notable enough to mention in the article about her, she cannot be a notable pedal steel guitar player. See the test, above. JSC ltd (talk) 00:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Um,...I may not know much about pedal steel guitar, but I know that Barbara Mandrell was known as the "Princess of Steel" and actually made her reputation as a steel guitar playing prodigy - and yes, she played the pedal steel as well. And of course she went on to be one of the most famous country artists ever - and kept playing. You can see a picture of her custom, three-neck guitar on the Internet. So she clearly deserves to be up there. She passes the test by any measure. 1. She made a name for herself with the steel guitar - with Patsy Cline, for goodness sake - and was one of the first and by far the most famous female PSG players of the television era. So I think it's completely safe to say she was influential on female players. 2. She had a custom, four-neck, multi-pedal steel guitar that's in the Country Hall of Fame. 3. It wasn't just that she played the steel among other instruments (although she did), it was the instrument she was known for and made her early career on. I'm a fan of Jeff "Skunk" Baxter and I might argue that he belongs up there because of the interesting places he took the pedal steel, and the many tracks he played on, but I don't think even he's as clear a case as Barbara Mandrell, because he's probably best known for his guitar work that was concurrent with his PSG work. Jerry Garcia has a famous steel guitar riff, but he was primarily a six-string player. But it's one thing to be purist, it's another to ignore one of the most famous people of Country who was also one of the most well-known and ONLY female steel guitar players of her era. I'm putting her name back up and correcting her profile to indicate that she played pedal steel as well. --Dlawbailey (talk) 09:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Read up a little and found our Barbara Mandrell was taught my Norm Hamlet, that her first gig was demonstrating steel guitar at about age 11 and that her steel guitar is in the Country Music Hall of Fame. So I think that should settle that particular question. But in case it doesn't | have a look at this. --Dlawbailey (talk) 11:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! This is the kind of research and editing that should go into the list of notable players! JSC ltd (talk) 15:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Some to dos

There's quite a lot that could be added to this article. At present it gives the impression that there's no standardisation at all, but in fact the basic instruments are the S-10 and D-10, most students learn on an S-10 with a fairly standard copedent, more professionals play a D-10 ditto ditto than any other setup (it may even be a majority there too), and most if not all other copedents are based on these ones.

Strings By Mail lists what might be called a basic set of S-10 and D-10 string gauges. Andrewa (talk) 19:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

PSG manufacturers... Fender?

Browsing Fender's 2009 catalogue I can only find a lap steel guitar. So, I assume Fender is in no way a present PSG manufacturer, although I don't know if it has produced PSG's in the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Venturini2 (talk • contribs) 11:41, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Fender made pedal steels during the 1960s. Offhand, I don't know if they made pedal steels in other decades, but they certainly haven't for years. When they did make pedal steels, they typically used eight-string necks and a unique (and difficult to keep in tune) cable pull changers. I've seen several in guitar shops in the Puget Sound area, so there seem to be quite a few still on the market. They aren't looked upon very kindly by people in the know. JSC ltd (talk) 20:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Gene O'Neil

I think Gene O'Neil, who is Charley Pride's steel guitarist, is very very notable. Look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmAg0E-jqMY&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.187.50 (talk) 18:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, put him through the test outlined above, and include him if he passes. Remember, a player must be 1) notable; 2) notable for playing the pedal steel guitar; and 3) a pedal steel guitar player. More references than a youtube video would be great. JSC ltd (talk) 18:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed the following.

Removed this statement-but the pedals make even a single-neck pedal steel a far more versatile instrument than any multiple-neck console steel. There is no source for this and it reads like an opinion. 98.240.76.78 (talk) 23:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

History

Please add citations for the history section. The history of PSG is very poorly documented in general. The Hawiian origins are widely disputed. Emu23 (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Article contains copyvio

The article contains large sections copied verbatim from HERE. I have removed about half of the copyvio so far and I am continuing to edit the article adding refs to try to improve it. Per the above template suggestion, I have also added an audio file to demonstrate how a pedal steel guitar sounds --Eagledj (talk) 22:11, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

really ought to be pruned

Seeing as the article is Pedal steel guitar, it spends far too much time in essayism, rambling on about stuff that is properly covered in specific articles:

• Slide guitar
• Slack-key guitar
• Steel guitar
• Lap steel guitar
• Console steel guitar

Really, there is so much unnecessary overlap between these articles that I could make the case they've become a string of content forks unnecessarily bloated up with redundancy; compare to the odd separation between Resonator ukulele & Lap steel ukulele (& I'm not convinced that Resonator ukulele & Resonator mandolin really need to be separate from Resonator guitar).
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Indian Music, Jerry Garcia

I just came across this article, and have two comments. I might get around to implementing the first one; the second one I'm just going to toss out as an opinion with additional concrete information (I'm not going to jump into the controversy).

If anyone has a solid objection to the first, post it here, otherwise I may go ahead and remove it.

1. As far as I know, no one in Indian music has used "Pedal steel guitar". There is a lot of use of modified slide steel guitars (in both classical music and film music), but nothing with pedals. As such, the Indian music references should be removed from this article, and placed in a "slide guitar" article or something.

2. Granted, Jerry Garcia was not a pro country player, but he was a competent musician who took pedal steel quite seriously for a few years (1969-1974, I read). He was an early member of New Riders of the Purple Sage, toured with them for a while (6 months +/-? Sometimes/often as openers for the Grateful Dead), and was on their first album. He also played steel on albums by David Crosby, Doug Sahm, Brewer and Shipley, Steven Stills, and Jefferson Airplane (and probably others). He also played steel on one or two songs during the 1987 Dead/Dylan stadium tour (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulARfcD9lcU ).

The second paragraph in the following is a short interview with Garcia about pedal steel, which (to me) indicates he took it seriously: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/jerry-garcias-pedal-steel.623928/page-2

That strikes me as enough to be notable (at least as early rock crossover). Finney1234 (talk) 22:17, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you. This article is being strangled by people who don't consider "non-country" lap and pedal steel players to be "real" players. Tell me Wikipedia shouldn't mention John Lennon's "For You Blue" performance, or David Gilmour on DSOTM? Add your stuff, just be clear that he was a guitarist, who got into pedal for a while. Billyshiverstick (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2021 (UTC)