Talk:Peckerwood

Use in Arkansas

"Peckerwood" was used by my father, a white southerner from Arkansas, as a pejorative for white males who acted silly, stupid, obnoxious or ignorant. He told me that it was because a woodpecker lives alone in the forest and has solitary vices and other bad habits. :) Halfelven 05:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Use in Kansas City

It's also used by Italians in Kansas City to refer to non-Italian whites. I have no documentation of this fact, unfortunately. --Raulpascal (talk) 22:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

New to me

Sorry not great at editing. Heard this word used first time today from a client. Said it refers to a white supremacy gang in prison. Just wanted to clear this up. Never heard this before but all of the members where white. All had been to prison prior, all bad guys. If we have a trial and it is public I will cite the testimony and case as source.

I recommend splitting this article up

The "other uses" section should be a stand-alone disambiguation page. Comments? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Peckerwood a term commonly used in the Northern part of California by family members not white but with relation to the subject which would not be in any way racial , but in humor. Pointing out the fact of white ethenticity of the close family member to be mexican. Peckerwood (Jacob) , Mexican (Alfonso) . Facts not fictional. RC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.9.143 (talk) 12:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Geez, y'all have no clue what a peckerwood is. I'm a proud peckerwood out of LA but it's not like an organization, it's the "wood pile" of white boys with heart that band together when they find themselves in the correctional system. 173.184.17.90 (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Very Common-From Older Southern Whites- A term used "Back then" to describe a man, who finding his wife in adultery, would tie her to a tree and abuse her sexually, or a white man tying a black woman to a tree for the purpose of rape. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WildWzl (talk • contribs) 19:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Bad article

This is a racial term used by Southern blacks to disparage Whites. This article pretends like it's something else. It even uses sources and then misrepresents the sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 (talk) 06:51, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Peckerwood

I have seen this word used as a slang term for woodpecker and a racial slur.

As a young boy growing up in Southern Missouri this word was used by older people as another word for woodpecker. Back then I did not know it was used to describe poor white sharecroppers. This is because there were no sharecroppers in our area as cotton was not grown there. Instead of Peckerwood the term White Trash was used to describe white people who were considered lazy and of low morals.

As an adult living in an urban area I have heard this term being used as racial slang numerous times. In this day and age the use of this word to describe a woodpecker died out when the older people who used it died off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thundercloud47 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

As usual, Wikipedia has it wrong. This was originally a derogatory term for southern whites, but is now a term of pride among white convicts, it denotes a white convict who will stand up for himself. It has nothing to do with Aryan nation affiliation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.123.223.120 (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hmm...

Where I grew up (NE US) "peckerwood" was an insult used by New England old timers against anyone who was vexing them unduly. It was essentially used where a younger generation would have called someone a "dickhead", and to those who used it, it meant "dick," or, for more refined ears, "penis".

I've also heard it in the "redneck" context, but didn't experience that until much later in life.

I think this article needs some more research. :)

Appalachian English

Yet another reference: it has been used in Appalachian English for a "stupid person" -- not specifically white, but the mountain cultural context is overwhelmingly white, so in that context it has no racial overtones. I've got a source, even: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graham (talk • contribs) 17:38, 21 September 2015‎

References

Status as a gang

This source from the ADL (which is in a frustrating fake-magazine Flash format) says that the term "peckerwood" is used by a lot of different gangs and wannabe gangs but is clear that this is just a loosely defined subculture, not a national organization. It also makes it clear that many local prisons/police/etc. use the term as a catch-all, which has caused a lot of confusion. For this reason, I don't think the single sentence "The Peckerwoods are a nationwide street gang reported in Green Bay and Sheboygan" from this Wisconsin DOJ PDF is usable as a source here. For reasons described in the ADL source, it's impossible to know what the Wisconsin source is even talking about without more context. Grayfell (talk) 22:53, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

It means they're talking about the a street gang that exists in Wisconsin. Most of the "reliable sources" about this topic are garbage anyways because cops seem to blow every concept out of proportion. The gang is based in California - the other gangs are extensions from Aryan Brotherhood which moved throughout the prison system. Thats why it exists in places like Wisconsin. It's a loosely defined subculture in the sense of Aryan Brotherhood's national identity - not in the sense of California gang culture. QubixQdotta (talk) 05:49, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

The quote I gave from the Wisconsin source includes everything that it says about peckerwoods. It says nothing about the connection between the peckerwoods and the Aryan Brotherhood. It seems like you're saying the source is garbage, but we should use it anyway because you agree with it. I don't think that's going to work. The way to fix this would be to find a better source. Grayfell (talk) 07:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Use of gang infobox

I like infoboxes, but in this case it's making something vague and complicated a bit too simple. There is no monolithic "peckerwood" gang, so the infobox is very misleading. It's all sourced, but it doesn't apply to any one single group, just a patchwork of groups that may not even be connected at all. Saying that the Peckerwood gang is affiliated with La Familia Michoacana based on the source is a good demonstration of this. The source says that among 52 people arrested in a case, one was a peckerwood, and two were part of La Familia. That's not really enough to go on here. This was more about drug trafficking, not gang affiliation, so making a very broad claim about gang affiliation for a "gang" that doesn't actually exist is not acceptable. I think it would be much better to remove the gang infobox. Except for 'ethnicity', it has no items that apply to every peckerwood gang, so I'm not sure what it's accomplishing. Grayfell (talk) 23:12, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Here's what you're missing. You seem to think that other street gangs are more complicated than this. They're not. I understand wanting to stay close to the source material but I'm using sources to confirm things I already know to be true. Not that I'm saying you should care, but I know the truth about things that aren't sourced that I wouldn't add but I will use sources to get as close to the truth as possible. Peckerwoods and Aryan Brotherhood is almost exactly the same as Surenos (southside) and Mexican Mafia. I would even argue that PW and Aryan Brotherhood is an extension of the Latino Southside culture based on the fact Peckerwood sets extend from Southside most of the time. And if Peckerwood is considered "non-monolithic" than you should also consider the fact that most gangs that're decentralized from their base location - which in this case is California - are most of the time not real Woods. Same with suburban kids that call themselves Woods - they're basically San Bernardino wannabes. Peckerwood gangs are for white people that grew up around Southside hoods - based on the natural segregation both of them have from black dudes. So what happens is that Peckerwoods have their foot in the gang politics and drug game of wherever they're at - which is usually Peckerwood sets (which includes NLR) and Southside vs Crips and Bloods. The same exact thing goes for Southside or Bloods or Crips or wherever. Thats all gangs are - tools for the drug business of their set location. Peckerwood has OGs from Aryan Brotherhood and Nazi Low Rider that set things straight just as much as latino Gs. Like I said I respect reliable sourcing but most sources on this subject offer nothing of real substance. They're made by a bunch of old school cops that think this is a "white power skinhead gang". I would love for this article to be as close to the actual truth as possible. QubixQdotta (talk) 04:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Using sources to confirm what you already know to be true is great, but those sources have to actually confirm it, otherwise it's WP:OR. Using the arrest press release for the La Familia thing is just absurd, even if you know from personal experience that it's true. This isn't the right way to share what you know. Who get's to decide who's a "real Wood" and who isn't? I'm sure there are a lot of members and others people who hold strict ideas about what that means, and I'm sure a lot of them disagree with you on this. Some of those people might have more personal experience than you, also. Or maybe not, I don't know, but Wikipedia doesn't care about any of that for good reason. We don't just take expert editors at their word. We need verifiable outside views and opinions here. Yeah, the easily accessed sources we've both been using are not very good for gangs, I agree, but the solutions is to dig deeper or leave stuff out. Aren't the Wisconsin gang report discussed above and the Texas press release both examples of the kind of bad sources you're describing? Using them just because you agree with a minor point included in them is opening the floodgates to adding a lot of bad sources full of bureaucratic fear-mongering and judicial bragging and old-school cops who don't get it. We don't want that, so we have to be more discriminating and stick to the sources. Maybe it's time to start looking through the sociology stuff or something, I dunno. Trying to stick as close as we can to the sources is all we've got here, because there are many other folks out there with strong opinions about how this actually works, and when they jump in and try to "fix" the article it's going to get even messier. Grayfell (talk) 07:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

The "real Wood" thing isn't meant to be taken seriously - I just mean the difference of a California Peckerwood vs some prison dudes in Alaska. Personally I actually disagree with you on the sources because there isn't better sources. I believe that the compilation of accurate information to prove a point is totally justifiable. Every single one of the sources includes fear-mongering and 2000s moral panic propaganda...until there's some website made by a real historian that loves unbiased gang information I say keep everything if it's true. Because the gang section is just about as in depth as it can possibly get based on the information that the internet has to offer. QubixQdotta (talk) 09:57, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, before I go any further, thanks for improving the article. It's is in better shape, and you deserve credit for that. There is a lot of garbage behavior on Wikipedia, and I don't want to make the situation worse, so I do want to make it clear that I appreciate this, even if I don't fully agree with it.

As for sources, Wikipedia's policies don't really agree with you. Right now we don't agree on what's true and not everything that's true belong in the article anyway, because Wikipedia isn't a collection of indiscriminate info. Saying "the difference of a California Peckerwood vs some prison dudes in Alaska" kinda proves my point here. What difference is that, exactly? According to who? Personal experience isn't going to work. No original research is a core policy. Using weak sources to support personally known content like this leads to a lot of problems down the road, and using bad sources to support 'good' content is just making more work for someone else when good sources are found. There are historians and social scientists who study gangs and hate groups and racial identities -a lot of them actually. I'm looking through academic books to find uses of this term, and I'm finding a ton of stuff (some of it pretty good) on the Aryan Brotherhood and Nazi Low Riders, but not much on "peckerwood". It's a lot better to use restraint here. Using the infobox draws a direct comparison between the Peckerwoods and the Aryan Brotherhood. They aren't two separate gangs, they're a bunch little gangs and some wannabes and maybe a slightly bigger California prison gang. The infobox is causing confusion, and it should be removed. Grayfell (talk) 22:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

It's not indiscriminate info, it's the exact number of states that the name exists in, that's pretty legitimate info someone might want. And also I think I made it very clear that I don't believe people should just take my word, I'm just trying to find correct information online. Don't get me wrong if we can find better sources let's go ahead and change the article. I'm just saying the article already has correct information on it and I don't see the point in removing something that might be useful later. In the context of Aryan Brotherhood, yes that is true. But not in the context of the NLR culture in certain regions. And also not in the context of the different regional cultures that Peckerwood has on its own - some of the gangs that were involved in skate and surf punk. People don't even realize how much Peckerwood culture influenced surf, skate, and BMX culture. The fact that people in Peckerwood street gangs become noobs when they go to jail is pretty obvious. Beyond prison and AB activity, the Peckerwood culture is huge and encompasses alot of different scenes - many notable musicians were woods. There's alot of middle class suburban and working class southside-related peckerwood cultures that are very different from each other. If we can find sources for that we're golden but the problem is that so many Peckerwood crews (especially 80s punk ones) had names without Peckerwood in it - which causes more problems. Aryan Brothers is totally different than the Peckerwood culture - it's more close in culture to Hell's Angels if anything.

Maybe the infobox should just be sorted differently. We could use hidden boxes in the gang alliance field for less clutter. Or we could make the infobox specifically for the street gangs because Aryan Brotherhood and Nazi Low Riders have their own infoboxes. QubixQdotta (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, this comes back to the original problem, which is that this article is about a slur that has come to be applied to something more complicated. The slang term is not the subculture, and the subculture is not the gang, so the article is now about a bunch of things that might not be all that closely related. I think making a specialized infobox is premature until we figure out where this article is headed. Is it a an old BEV term, or a term used by prisons, or a slur, or a gang, or a bunch of gangs, or a subculture, or a bunch of regional cultures? It's probably all of those things, but the sources, as far as I can see, all focus on one aspect: prison gangs. There's only one way to solve the problem that I know of, which is looking for more sources. Punk is another area which has a surprising amount of academic coverage, so that's another area to research, but if, as you say, people don't realize how much peckerwood culture influenced these things, that's not Wikipedia's problem to solve. Someone has to realize it, and then also get it published, otherwise this isn't the place.

I've also noticed you've added Category:Peckerwood to a few articles, but none of those articles actually use the word in the body. That breaks WP:CATDEF specifically, and WP:V more broadly. Even categories need sources, so that's going to need to be fixed soon. The word is a slur with insulting overtones, so WP:BLPCAT is a very big problem here. If the JellyRoll article (for example) doesn't explain the connection to peckerwood, with a source, the category will have to go. Grayfell (talk) 06:32, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Well in that case, then all the gang articles need to be reorganized which is probably the case as well. Yes more sources is really the only way to go honestly. I found that searching results for Public Enemy No. 1 gets better results for the punk side of the culture. The article might have to divide the different Peckerwood gangs into their own sections. I realized this article doesn't mention that crew once.

Honestly I come from more simpler time of Wikipedia when people really didn't care as much about sourcing obscure info. I didn't even know that rule existed. The category can be salvaged - the people whom don't have sources were removed. I respect your consistency for creating and wanting accurate information. QubixQdotta (talk) 08:02, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

peckerwood vs Peckerwood

We need to distinguish the line between the word/prison slang for white prisoner AND the name of the gang "Peckerwood" that is on the streets. It is a title of a gang like Blood or Crip. "They are the Crips" "He is a crip" "He is a Crip member" would be the same thing. QubixQdotta (talk) 01:58, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Changing a new version by reverting to an old version

I'm sorry, I just want to add on some things and for some reason doing it fresh was kinda difficult, it wasn't seems like it understands what I'm typing out. Anyways, that why I reverted it to an old version, and beside I changed that one too on my FREAKING Xbox One, so that why. Ks159081 (talk) 7:43 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Italics

Italics are appropriate when discussing the term peckerwood, as per both MOS:LEADSENTENCE and WP:WORDSASWORDS generally. They are needed to make the use-mention distinction clear for the reader, as we're mentioning the term as a term, not just using it in a sentence.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Italics for the lede word are only used in titles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:33, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

That's obviously not true looking at Y'all, Ain't, Thou, floruit, queer, Irregardless, and the dozens or hundreds of other articles on words and terms. Plus those like "Craic" and "D'oh" that use quotation marks instead of italics to mark the use-mention distinction. Not to mention the multiple guidelines that say italics should be used in this way.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:19, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Given that, I'll re-add the italics.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:55, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I've reverted. You need to get a consensus on this page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

You appear to be the only one objecting to this change, which is, again, supported by the guidelines and precedent at other articles. However, I'll request a third opinion.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:49, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

And you appear to be the only one supporting the change in this discussion, so you have no consensus to make the change, Get a consensus, right here, on this page. Also, please recall that MOS and other guidelines are just that guidelines, they are not mandatory, and must be applied with common sense. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:00, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:

I agree with BMK, as "peckerwood" does not appear to be the title of any type of media (for example). OAN: I also think this article should be moved to Peckerwood (slang) and then the original title should redirect to Woodpecker with a hatnote along the lines of: “ "Peckerwood" redirects here. For the slang term, see Peckerwood (slang). ” Erpert blah, blah, blah... 17:36, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Section removed

The "Differences between gangs and subculture" section consisted entirely of unsourced declarative statements, which is a violation of WP:V and WP:RS, so I removed it from the article. I've posted it below, so that parts of it can be restored to the article with the proper support of citations from reliable sources. Any material which is restored without references will be deleted again, and repeated actions of this kind will be reported for sanctioning.

The task is simple: take a statement or group of statements, find a source that supports ihe information, then restore that information with a reference to that source.

==Differences between gangs and subculture==

Ironically, there is a misconception about the term "peckerwood". Critics assume a peckerwood is a racist, neo-nazi white supremacist gang member. However, majority of peckerwoods claim not to be gangbangers. According to some peckerwoods, the difference between the peckerwood subculture and the peckerwood prison gang population is the peckerwood subculture does not condone any criminal activities or a group of racist bigots. The peckerwood subculture is majorily white, however Hispanics, Europeans, Native Americans and minority Asians are recently joining the subculture. African americans were not allowed to join, due to the fact that blacks invented the term "peckerwood" as a racist slur, which may be an assuming reason why African-Americans were not permitted. Peckerwoods also borrow elements of [[Nazism]] and [[Neo-Confederate]] paraphernalia (right wing extremism, white nationalism, white seperatism, fascism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, Southern Nationalism). Peckerwoods deny themselves being racist, however they support a favor of [[anti-Semitism]] and rejects a racist ideology of [[White Supremacy]].

=== Nazism ===
The Peckerwoods' main ideology subscribed to is Nazism, inspired by the teachings of [[Adolf Hitler]]. Peckerwoods are also [[Neo-Confederate]] as well (such as honoring soldiers of the Confederacy). Despite the Peckerwoods' rejection of [[White supremacy]], they show loyal support to the [[Nazi Low Riders]].

=== Allies ===
Peckerwoods have no official allies but they do support right wing, political groups. They have typical allegiance to the Nazi Low Riders. Peckerwoods do ally themselves with [[Nazi punk| Nazi punks]], [[National Socialist black metal| NSBM metalheads]], and [[Rock Against Communism| RAC rockers]]. Peckerwoods also favor music such as [[Hardcore punk]], [[Horrorcore]] rap, Rock Against Communism (RAC), Punk rock, [[Speed metal]] and [[Grindcore]].

=== Rivals ===
Peckerwoods are in a political conflict against radical leftists as they pair up with right wing extremists. They also tend to share the same rivals the Nazi Low Riders have, such as [[Bloods]], [[Crips]], [[Black Guerrilla Family]], [[Mara Salvatrucha]], [[Norteños]], and [[Latin Kings]]. When it comes to involvement in a political war, the Peckerwoods' main rivals are Red and Anarchist Skinheads, [[Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice]], [[Antifa]], [[Black Lives Matter]] and [[Social Justice Warriors]]. Peckerwoods also believes to have a deep hostility towards the [[Jewish Defense League]].

=== Religous aspects in the Peckerwood subculture ===

Although the Peckerwoods subculture has no official religion, most Peckerwoods favor in [[Christianity]] as the subculture's main religion. The subculture tends to maintain an Anti-Semitic attitude. However, 67% of the Peckerwoods mostly convert to [[Heathenism| Nordic paganism]] or [[Satanism]] cause they believe Christianity is a form of Judaism.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)