Jump to content

Talk:Paul-Louis Couchoud

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject class rating

[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A real biography article on Paul-Louis Couchoud has still to be produced by a knowledgeable writer

[edit]

I think that the German writer and professional translator, Frans-Joris Fabri, would be a good contributor to a professional encyclopedic article on Couchoud.

Fabri has already produced the English translation of Couchoud’s THE FIRST EDITION OF THE PAULINA – 1928 found at: http://www.radikalkritik.de/couch_engl.htm

Fabri announced that he also translated into German Paul-Louis Couchoud’s book: L’Evangile de Marc a été écrit en Latin (1930) [Mark's Gospel was written in Latin]. The original French version is at: http://www.radikalkritik.de/COUCHOUDEvMarc.pdf . The English summary is at http://www.hermann-detering.de/Couch_latMarc_trnsl.htm

That the original of Mark might have been Latin is an intriguing hypothesis worth thorough examination.

But no, the great pundit historian of the Origins of Christianity, R. Joseph Hoffmann, on his blog called The New Oxonian, at once gave Fabri a taste of his whip: “Couchoud was "roundly thrashed" by Maurice Goguel in Jesus the Nazarene: Myth or History. I reviewed the whole text of Maurice Goguel’s Jesus the Nazarene and could not find any trace that Goguel had “roundly thrashed” Couchoud. Goguel presented his series of opposing arguments, in a fair and decent scholarly manner. But only Hoffmann suddenly wants to erect himself as final judge and give the prize to Goguel. Hoffmann, a fine and often hermetic writer, likes to express himself only in hyperbolic, ironic or subtly sarcastic statements. He acknowledges that he is a modern master of scholarly "insults". Which is refreshing in an academic world of pomposity, self-importance, and impenetrable jargon.

Hoffmann did not miss this opportunity for bad-mouthing Couchoud, by insinuating that Couchoud had no qualifications in Greek, “but was a fair poet and also a physician”.

There’s a serviceable biography of Couchoud on French Wikipedia, with some holes, but providing good bare bones, and Fabri, a professional translator, may be willing to translate it into English as a start for the base of an article in English. From this biography it is clear that Couchoud started with advanced studies in Philosophy, obtained the top French degree (called agrégation by the French, a little more than a M.A. and closer to a junior American Ph.D.) for which complete competencies in Greek and Latin were a must (with Latin started in 6th grade and Greek in 8th grade of French classical high-school). His undergraduate years were in the same elite French school called Ecole Normale Supérieure de la rue d'Ulm (45, rue d'Ulm, Paris 6th arr't), where Louis Pasteur was a chemistry student and lecturer, where Henri Bergson and Jean-Paul Sartre, both Nobel prizes (Sartre refused his prize!) also started as philosophy students, and many more after those two, also with the same high-level requirements in Greek and Latin.

No European scholar has to my knowledge accused Couchoud of ignorance of Greek. Neither Charles Guignebert, Maurice Goguel, or Alfred Loisy, or Adolf Harnack or Frans-Joris Fabri himself. Hoffmann is simply maliciously spreading rumors, for the Schadenfreude satisfaction of erecting himself as superior to Couchoud.

Couchoud embarked on studies of medicine and psychiatry well after having established himself as a philosopher, exactly like Albert Schweitzer at the same time. (1906).

When Hoffmann starts denigrating an opponent with glib accusations, his statements become highly questionable. His lack of double-checking and his off-hand dismissals are depressingly amateurish for such a high-ranking academic. This can lead many to believe that there’s a lot to be suspicious of in Hoffmann's criticisms of other scholars. In his view, he seems to be believe himself to be the final arbiter of Who's Who in early Christianity scholarship.

Fabri loudly protested on Hoffmann’s blog, The Oxonian, that Couchoud never showed ignorance of Greek and that he was unfairly maligned by Hoffmann. But, Hoffmann, unsurprisingly, high-handedly dismissed Fabri's protesting comment, and suppressed it from his blog. Hoffmann, like the Vatican, wants to retain an aura of supreme infallibility, and is willing to eliminate any trace of contrary evidence or criticism.

As mentioned above, I think Fabri could be of great service if he would be willing to tackle the translation into English of the Couchoud article on French Wikipedia, at http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul-Louis_Couchoud. Other contributors might then be willing to assist him.

I, for one, have read quite a huge amount of French philosophy and theology. But Fabri is an established translator, and already knows Couchoud pretty well. Beyond mere translation, this could lead to recasting the whole article in an American style and formatting.

In this French article, amusingly, they mention that Couchoud mourut dans la foi ("died in the faith"), which is the French way to say that he recanted his anti-Christian beliefs and converted to Catholicism. It is worth checking on the accuracy of such a report, and the accuracy of the fact itself. There must be discussions of this allegation in the French press or French media.

The suspicious reason invoked by the French editors is bizarre: suite à sa rencontre toute récente avec la mystique Marthe Robin ("following his recent meeting with the female mystic, Marthe Robin"), a meeting which would have reversed a lifetime of study and scholarship from such a word-class philosopher/scientist.

This deathbed conversion sounds completely unreal, and some kind of scam played on the memory of Couchoud. French Catholics love this kind of fictitious deathbed conversion. They had tried the same trick at Voltaire’s death, and the same game was played with Couchoud.

There must have been some controversy published in the French press at the time about this dubious change of mind. The discussion on the French Wikipedia "TALK page" about their article does not mention the issue. A thorough and reliable American Wikipedia article on Couchoud has still to be produced. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 00:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Contribution of the German scholar Frans-Joris Fabri

[edit]

Frans-Joris Fabri is a German scholar, expert at translations. He has translated some important French texts of Couchoud into English and German.

He has translated the text of the French Wikipedia article on Couchoud into English. This provided the basis for the initial framework of the American article. It remains to to be pruned of minute details and obscure names that have lost any meaning for an American readership and probably for most modern French readers.

The few questions I asked the French editors to answer, and to clarify some points of their text, have so far not been acknowledged or answered. So these dubious issues have to be left aside until more info is provided. Frankly there does not seem to be an experienced French historian in the team of French editors. They give the impression to be lost and not knowing where to find the significant info.

Meanwhile Frans-Joris Fabri has produced a solid, accurate and interesting translation. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 19:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First article on Couchoud in English produced with the contribution of translator Frans-Joris Fabri, April 19, 2013

[edit]

Still to be added: a few pictures would enhance the presentation of this article, important for Wikipedia program concerning French culture, philosophy and theology. Possibly adding a box.
The quotes are valuable for any reader world-wide, because Couchoud's books are nearly impossible to find on the market.
The Creation of Christ, a classic, was printed only once (1939), never reprinted, and is unavailable as a used book on Amazon US and Amazon UK, and any other used-book sellers. The French original, Jésus: Le Dieu Fait Homme (1937) is similarly unavailable as a used book on Amazon France and any used-book sellers.
Only the best libraries of the world own a copy of the books (Worldcat mentions only 51 libraries worldwide.)
It is likely that some publisher may decide to tap the market for such authors and re-edit Couchoud's books in a modern format. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 12:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate additions

[edit]

The content recently added to the article by ROO BOOKAROO is in blatant violation of WP:NOR, WP:STRUCTURE, WP:UNDUE, WP:V, WP:RS/AC, and WP:TOPIC. This editor's comments fail to address any of the concerns raised and his/her repeated defiance of policy ([1][2][3][4]) has become disruptive. --Omnipaedista (talk) 10:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Paul-Louis Couchoud. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:11, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Paul-Louis_Couchoud&oldid=1206805701"