Talk:Patricia Payne (mezzo-soprano)

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A fact from Patricia Payne (mezzo-soprano) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 21 July 2018 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that mezzo-soprano Patricia Payne made her debut at the Metropolitan Opera in Ponchielli's La Gioconda, and took part in the first performance of Britten's Peter Grimes in New Zealand?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2018/July. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Patricia Payne (mezzo-soprano).

Wikipedia

Requested move 21 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Please initiate a new request to discuss the possibility of a different disambiguator, as necessary. Dekimasuよ! 08:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Patricia Payne (mezzo-soprano) → Patricia Payne (singer) – I believe a full discussion is the best way to go because this article is currently on the Main Page as a DYK. The current disambiguation by voice type is too WP:PRECISE. WP:CONCISE is apparently preferred by WP:NCDAB. The main Patricia Payne is active in the film industry, not music, so the proposed disambiguation seems to be clear enough. Vycl1994 (talk) 19:24, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose she's a mezzo, we don't call opera singers just (singer). See other articles In ictu oculi (talk) 22:39, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: if mezzo is too specific, so is "singer". Per WP:NCPDAB: Sometimes disambiguators need to be more specific. For example, "Engelbert Humperdinck (musician)" could still refer to two different people, so Engelbert Humperdinck (composer) and Engelbert Humperdinck (singer) are used. jamacfarlane (talk) 03:59, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per In ictu oculi. It is standard practice not only here (in disambiguation), e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc. etc. but in the literature as well to refer to opera singers by their voice type, e.g. "Greek-American soprano Maria Callas (1923–77) was one of the greatest interpreters of Italian Classical opera of her generation" (Royal Opera House); "Baltsa, Agnes (born Lefkas 19 Nov 1944) Greek mezzo-soprano." (Grove Book of Opera Singers). Voceditenore (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – per the policy WP:TITLE, which is, in a nutshell: "Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:11, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - (singer) is too general. (contralto) - see below - would work, but why change? Most mezzos also sing alto parts, some also soprano, - whatever voice type in the dab suggests a classical singer, a trained professional, while (singer) could be any. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Gerda Arendt, there aren't any other singers with that name on Wikipedia, so I don't see how it's too general. The purpose of an article title is to disambiguate, not inform. jamacfarlane (talk) 20:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mezzo or contralto

On second thoughts and unrelated to this request: after reviewing her repertoire and the sources mentioned overleaf, her main voice type seems to have been contralto, so maybe the article should be moved to Patricia Payne (contralto)? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:31, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose unless you have a source to say she's more notable as a contralto than a mezzo. However, I don't see how you can say moving the article to somewhere else is unrelated to this request. In my view, this suggestion should have been made as part of the discussion here. jamacfarlane (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you have sources to say she's more notable as a mezzo. Opera Scotland calls her a mezzo, and then lists her contralto roles. Just like this article, many sources describe her as mezzo/contralto. Kutsch & Riemens describe her as de:Alt (Stimmlage), the German equivalent of contralto. Almost all of the roles listed in her article are contralto roles. How this article is disambiguated doesn't matter much (the text and categories are more important), but it's not clear that "(mezzo-soprano)" is the best fitting term. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:15, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a source other than Opera Scotland. I think as the current title uses "(mezzo-soprano)" the burden is on those supporting a move to identify sources, but if she's equally notable as both, then I would be content with "(opera singer)" or (the inelegant but ensorsed by WP:NCPDAB) "(musician)". jamacfarlane (talk) 04:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for (musician), - the one time. Typically we singers are not counted among the musicians, "the singers and musicians" is a typically colloquial phrase. I'd leave as it is. We would disambiguate (contralto) for exclusive singers of that voice type, which she is not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:57, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Metropolitan Opera lists her in the performance archives as Payne, Patricia (Mezzo Soprano). The New Grove Dictionary of Opera calls her "mezzo-soprano or contralto". In recordings and record reviews, the description varies pretty equally between mezzo and contralto. Her own official biography, states: "Her 'enormous' voice is a rich mezzo-contralto of unusual strength and quality." Frankly, I'd leave the title as it is. No one would be surprised by it. Or at best disambiguate with "(opera singer)". Voceditenore (talk) 05:36, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.