Talk:Pataria

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Merge proposal

Patarine and Pataria cover the same subject. I don’t have any clear view on what the merged article should be called, though I incline towards Paterines. —Ian Spackman 21:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'm biassed, but I favour "Pataria", the name of the movement over the name of the individuals of the movement (which also varies in spelling). Srnec 03:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most people encountering the movement through historical books (e.g. the works of R.I. Moore) will encounter the word "Patarenes", I would suggest that as the most likely users of the page this could be adopted 129.67.129.33 (talk) 08:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pataria and Cathars

You say Pataria was influenced by Cathars: however pataria exploded in 1070, whilst the first evidence of Cathars dates to 1143. Lele giannoni (talk) 12:54, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's the other way around, Cathars were infuenced by Patarenes. And both were gnostic sects. The article should mention this.198.1.196.24 (talk) 07:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We need a reliable secondary source (WP:RS) to confirm that the patarenes were gnostic and that they influenced the Cathars. The Patrenes were a reform movement within the Catholic Church, while the Cathars were independent of the Church. There were other reform groups active at the time such as Arnoldists, Petrobrusians, Henricans – see Heresy in Christianity#Medieval heresies. The Patrenes were not declared heretical, which they certainly would have been if they were gnostic – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 15:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have revised the article to hopefully make it clear that different groups are called by the same/similar name, and these had entirely different natures. The Pope was on the side of the Pateria against the Archbishop of Milan, not the Pateria were against the Pope. I cannot see any evidence or grounds why they could be called heretical or even schismatic. Looking through various sources, I seems to me there is a good deal of fudging where people who want to find proto-protestant groups carelessly graft on anachronous motivations: such as assuming that if a group is fighting the local Bishop they must be fighting the Pope or the episcopal system and they therefore must be heretics.

Editors should be careful on sources here, as there is clearly NPOV stuff going on, and a confusion and conflation of groups from different regions and times but with similar names. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 01:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

It is not that unclear, at least, Encyclopedia.com claims Pataria was the name of a quarter of Milan, and Vilfrido Pareto claimed it was a poor quarter. This makes perfect sense, that poor people would start a movement against corruption and greed, and their opponents would dub them the equivalent of "slum-dwellers". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.67.226.33 (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]