Talk:Papyrus 45/Archive 1

Archive 1

Dating of P45

The citation for the date of P45 was a dead link; I have updated it. Also note that Philip Wesley Comfort gives an earlier date ("ca. 200") for the manuscript. Neither source describes the authority on which the date given stands or the status of scholarly debate on the issue, but the work of T. C. Skeat cited under further reading says that it is "usually considered to have been written in the middle of the third century" (page 141). --Uityyy (talk) 17:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

P45 readings in Novum Testamentum Graece

Kenyon's edition of the Greek text of the papyrus P45 gives in Acts 7:58, 9:24, 11:30 and 13:7 the indeclinable form of apostle's name σαουλ' instead of forms of σαυλος, as in later manuscripts (e.g., σαουλ']σαυλου cett.). However, I cannot find these readings in the Novum Testamentum Graece apparatus. I would greatly appreciate if someone could advise me on this matter: whether the readings are actually given in NTG, or not considered valid anymore, or something else is the case?--Constantine Sergeev (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

All I can do is confirm that NA27, plus Metzger's supplemental commentary both say nothing of this variant reading. I find this a little odd because I was under the impression that all of the readings in the papyri were included in NA27. But other than that, I cannot say why it was excluded, or if perhaps Kenyon was mistaken.-Andrew c ^[talk] 16:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming. I also find it rather odd, especially taking into account that Kenyon's reading is the same for 4 places where NA27 gives three forms of σαυλος (gen., dat., acc.), and differing by more than one letter + apostrophe, which is often used with indeclinable Hebrew names.--Constantine Sergeev (talk) 19:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it significant? You can look up σαουλ in the Bauer lexicon, it says it is used in Acts 9:4,17; 22:7,13; 26:14 (the accounts of Paul's conversion). The text of Acts is so variable, that may be a reason not to list all papyrii variants? 75.15.200.135 (talk) 22:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a fact that Acts have σαουλ (the form of the name used in the Septuagint) in direct speech (Jesus and Ananias addressing Paul in 9:4,17, and Paul citing their words in 22:7,13; 26:14). It is also used in Acts 13:21 to name the biblical king Saul. Otherwise, the form σαυλος is used. Thus, I've been rather surprised to learn that P45, the earliest known papyrus of Acts, uses only the form σαουλ' and never once σαυλος (the papyrus text is incomplete). G. A. Harrer (Saul Who Also Is Called Paul, The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 33, No. 1. (Jan., 1940), pp. 19-33) considered σαουλ' to be the original reading (as it is consistently used in the earliest manuscript), with significant implications for the problem of the apostle's two names. Thus, it seems very strange that this reading, already discussed in the literature, is not found in NA27.--Constantine Sergeev (talk) 11:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems like it must have been discussed, but perhaps got edited from the book, since the extant versions of Acts vary so much. I think I can see where this is going, σαουλ would be the obvious one, coming from the Septuagint, a major source of vocabulary for Luke-Acts. σαυλος may be a deliberate attempt to belittle Paul by those opposed to him, a sort of inside joke, and Acts in general seems to paint Paul differently than the Pauline Epistles do. Acts also curiously begins naming the apostle Paul (instead of Saul) after the encounter with Sergius Paulus (Paulus was a last name among Romans, Paul apparently was the first to adopt it as a first name). 75.0.10.183 (talk) 20:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

P45 in what font

The standard numbering of biblical papyri uses a special font for the letter "p". Wikipedia seems to use the German Fraktur. Is this correct? I have read that it is common to use what is called Gothic or Old English. What is the usage? Does it make a difference? Should we care? TomS TDotO (talk) 18:36, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello TomS TDotO - the German Fraktur or mathfrak p is just the easiest online font reference to use for all the papyri. Also, the Gothic or Old English p is in fact the German Fraktur, IIRC. I would suggest we shouldn't particularly care. You can also see the German Fraktur corresponds very much to the unicode version given at http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2014/12/nt-textual-criticism-signs.html :) Stephen Walch (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:49, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Location

Is there any information on where the papyrus was found, or by whom? Perhaps that could be included.Ordinary Person (talk) 09:47, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Ordinary Person: as P45 is part of the Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri, the location information is noted there. I'll add a quick note about provenance, and link to the CBBP page. Stephen Walch (talk) 16:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)