Talk:Panda Bar massacre/Archive 1

Archive 1

name of article

This killings were refered as Panda Bar incident in OSCE report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mladifilozof (talk • contribs) 22:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Gunmen

Propose to remove "Albanian Gunmen" due to recent media reports. Put unknown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drilon (talk • contribs) 14:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Preperators:Unknown?

Doesn't the media approve to the fact that it was the state security that comited the crime?As well as president Vucic,is this supposed to be again one of those biased wikipedia articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Have you got a good source? Let's fix it. bobrayner (talk) 01:48, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Prepators: State Security Administration

Deputy prime minister of Serbia Aleksandar Vučić admits that the Panda Bar massacre in the city of Peja in 1998 was a false flag operation committed by the State Security Service also knows as UDBA. The crime was ordered by Radomir Markovic (head of State Security Service) and executed by the infamous Milorad Ulemek (Legija), so as to make Kosovo Liberation Army appear as a terrorist organisation.

Also, the victims' families have denied that the "KLA" has committed the murders. They indicate that the crime was not committed by Albanians and they expect the Serbian Government to answer the question whether Serbian military and police forces who were present in that city were responsible for the crime in 1998.

• So we have to change this article based on the newest possible references.

--Hakuli (talk) 10:39, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

---

I see nothing here but rampant speculation and insinuation. No one "admitted" anything and no evidence has been provided one way or the other. Moreover, your comments regarding Markovic and Ulemek are a blatant WP:BLP violation. 23 editor (talk) 15:18, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

LiveLeak.com has based the news from a sensationalistic tabloid called Kurir, a very unreliable source. FkpCascais (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories

Extreme WP:FRINGE theories about war crimes which were never perpetrated by any Albanians require immediate admin oversight. @Amanuensis Balkanicus: has twice now added that the perpetrators of this horrible incident were involved with the KLA, but even the latest investigation by the Serbian state has concluded that The Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office launched its new investigation into the massacre in 2016. The prosecution said in 2017 that it had questioned 34 witnesses, and was hoping to interview more and gather additional evidence before pressing charges. It did not reply to BIRN’s request for a comment by the time of publication. Serbia’s former war crimes prosecutor, Vladimir Vukcevic, said that it was a fact that there were “almost no Albanians” in the Peja/Pec region at the time of the attack. “We came to the conclusion that [Albanians] are not the perpetrators,” Vukcevic told BIRN. However, he added that the war crimes prosecution did not investigate the case, since it was outside of its jurisdiction.[1] --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Albanians ≠ KLA. Or are you claiming otherwise? Also, you;ve reinserted the tabloids Kurir and Blic, contrary to WP:TABLOID. Talk about conspiracy theories. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 19:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I've added what the source said without the need to infer anything from it about KLA. In the meantime, don't put forward WP:FRINGE theories. It's incredible how easily conspiracy theories can be put forward without any editing responsibility. Also, Since then, there has been much speculation that the perpetrators could have been Serbian forces or state security operatives. But if there has been any genuine progress in the case, it has not been made public. Even if you remove Kurir, the same speculation exists in sources that are definitely not tabloid.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:31, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

And let's a get couple of things straight about editing responsibility: You changed "disputed: KLA or JSO" to KLA. You placed KLA as the definite perpetrators even though there is SOCPO investigation which has removed links to any Albanians whatsoever. So, you tried to present on wikipedia the opposite of what has happened in reality.--Maleschreiber (talk)

Side comment: Vučić said that there are "a lot of terrible things that we have to face," giving the example of the murder of Serbs in the cafe Panda in Kosovo in 199, which said there was no evidence that the murder was committed by Albanians, "as it was believed." Now, the community cannot allow wikipedia to become a territory for the spread of theories which have been dismissed by all involved states and their political leadership. --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

On the contrary. I added the KLA as suspected perpetrators, but since the parameter has been deprecated, no perpetrators were listed. There isn't any tangible indication the JSO had any role in this and they aren't mentioned in the BI article, which is the only non-tabloid source you've added. As for "reality" and your perception of it, read WP:TRUTH. Talk about "getting a couple of things straight". Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 19:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

The reality is that an official investigation has concluded that no Albanians were involved, but you and Sadko keep spreading extreme FRINGE on wikipedia. The Serbian state which as of 2020 officially acknowledges that it was committed by agents of the Serbian Secret Service. But because of edit-warring, wikipedia is being used as space for conspiracy theories. In mid-December six young Kosovo Serbs were killed, and about a dozen wounded, in the Panda bar in Peja/Pec. The murder caused outrage all around, with the KLA getting all the blame. Many years later, the Serbian government officially acknowledged that the murder had been perpetrated by agents of the Serbian Secret Service.

References

--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Not true, on the contrary, I am here to improve the article and I shall assume good faith. What is the quote from the book? Where is that "official statement" by the Serbian government? Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:51, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories don't belong in wikipedia. This doesn't involve any Albanians or Albanian group, but the opposite has been confirmed. An admin should look into Amanuensis Balkanicus's message to Sadko [2] who immediately removed them from their talkpage and then they reverted to AB's edits. Ahmet Q. (talk) 21:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Guys, this is pretty simple. We don't know who perpetrated this massacre. Therefore, listing any perps in the infobox is unjustified. The article should report what is said in reliable sources, that's it.

It's possible and even likely that the Serbian Secret Service/Police was involved but we don't know that for sure when there isn't confirmation. The claim by Everts (who is a NATO diplomat btw) appears to jump to a conclusion that isn't verified. Surely if the government of a country announced that it had orchestrated a massacre, it would be news and reported by media outlets. Otherwise, it's just a bogus thing to write.

Also, Kurir is a tabloid and tabloids are generally not RS. Rumors and speculations about who might have done it based on tabloid reports have no place on Wikipedia.

--Griboski (talk) 23:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

The "claim" by Everts is RS. Also, we know that no Albanians were involved and we know that the Serbian government has moved to acknowledge the role of Serbian state agencies in the Milosevic period. Now, don't add again the KLA as a "possible" perpetrator. It's not something which is considered plausible by any state as of 2020. @Ahmet Q.: I'll notify an admin to check AB's "notification".--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:46, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Griboski: Could you explain why you kept on the lead the "KLA didn't accept responsibility at the time" but then removed that an official investigation has concluded that no Albanians were involved and that Vucic has also acknowledged the same basic fact as far back as 2013? I think that it implies a narrative which doesn't correspond to the events which have occurred in the past few years.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

the Serbian government officially acknowledged that the murder had been perpetrated by agents of the Serbian Secret Service

When was the press conference for this "official" announcement made and where are the media reports on it? Some officials in the country saying that the Serbian Police might have been involved and the inference as you made, that perhaps there's a sense the government is moving in that direction, is not an official acknowledgement. So what Everts says is just wrong.

Also, I am in agreement with you about not adding the KLA. As far as the lead, I tried to move the info into a separate section as the lead was getting long and there wasn't a place in the body for any of the information about the investigation. I didn't think Vucic was significant for the lead as he wasn't president at the time he made the comments. It was done a little hastily though. Feel free to move the information around, including the conclusion by a prosecutor that Albanians weren't involved. --Griboski (talk) 00:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

An inference would be if someone assumed that a trial will be held, but the article reports only the acknowledgement - a discussion which goes on to investigate what else Evert might mean would be WP:SYNTH. --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

"Reports only the acknowledgement.." An acknowledgement that has not been confirmed by any other sources or the government in question. Unless you can provide other sources that say there was an official acknowledgement by the Serbian government, the material will likely be tagged and/or challenged/removed. --Griboski (talk) 00:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Where has the Serbian government "acknowledged" that the attack was perpetrated by the "Serbian Secret Service" (a non-existent organization, by the way)? Seems like enormous news. I'm sure it would have been reported in the Serbian and international media. A passing assertion in a book doesn't cut it, as per WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

If you want to challenge a source, you can do that on RSN - but you can't remove or tag any source because you seek a source to be verified by another source. --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Please present the full quote from the new book by the same diplomat (not an expert on the subject really). In case that we don't have the full quote or better sources presented - the information is good to go, as it is an exceptional claim.Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 02:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office launched a new investigation in 2016 and reached the conclusion that the massacre was not perpetrated by Albanians. This is not in the source, not at all. We have the former prosecutor's statement, which is not official and can't be treat as such. It is not written with WP:NPOV in mind. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 02:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office launched its new investigation into the massacre in 2016. The prosecution said in 2017 that it had questioned 34 witnesses, and was hoping to interview more and gather additional evidence before pressing charges. It did not reply to BIRN’s request for a comment by the time of publication. Serbia’s former war crimes prosecutor, Vladimir Vukcevic, said that it was a fact that there were “almost no Albanians” in the Peja/Pec region at the time of the attack. “We came to the conclusion that [Albanians] are not the perpetrators,” Vukcevic told BIRN. To edit "with NPOV in mind" means to not push for WP:FRINGE theories.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

What? Please read other editor's comments and questions again, please. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 03:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I've read your comments and I replied to you that you should basically follow what has been produced in RS in the last few years. You can move your arguments to RSN - but you're not going to remove any source because you don't consider it NPOV or because you're questioning how valid it is.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Source 20

I researched source 20 on p.50 in //Peacekeeping in Albania and Kosovo: Conflict response and international intervention in the Western Balkans//

The original source does not specify which outlet or institution is said to have admitted serbian state interferal in the panda massacre. 130.82.70.209 (talk) 23:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Serbian Secret Service - Officialy acknowledged

Apart from the source cited I can't find any evidence that this has been officially acknowledged by the Serbian government - though there do seem to be sources that the Serbian President has implied the SSS' responsiblity. I think this needs better sourcing. Gugrak (talk) 07:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gugrak: I agree that the current wording is not justified. Everts wrongly claims that the "the Serbian government officially acknowledged that the murder had been perpetrated by agents of the Serbian Secret Service". This is almost certainly a reference to Vučić's cryptic comments from 2013, which contained no "official acknowledgement" and made no reference to the "Serbian Secret Service". Since then, neither Vučić nor the Serbian government have made any statements remotely similar to what Everts describes. This recent AFP article is quite circumspect and says the incident remains unsolved, while providing a detailed summary of developments over the past 20 years. [3] Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC)