Talk:Palmyra offensive (July–August 2015)

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Requested move 12 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Both decent arguments (consistency vs. common name), no way to split them. I will, however, move the article to fix the dash spacing per MOS:DASH. Jenks24 (talk) 13:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Palmyra offensive (July–August 2015) → Tadmur offensive (July–August 2015) – Tadmur is official city name, Palmyra alternative name, much less frequently used in news/articles... Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL vs Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 495656778774 (talk) 14:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Natg 19 (talk) 19:34, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Strong oppose – In reference to this battle, and the events in this area, the anglophone media has overwhelmingly preferred "Palmyra" to "Tadmur", and per WP:UCN, this article must adhere to that preference. The "official name" is irrelevant. As examples, we can see that the BBC uses Palmyra, as does The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The New York Times, the Financial Times, The Irish Times, Australian Broadcasting Corporation, &c., &c. No mention of "Tadmur" is found in these articles, from some of the most reputable and diverse press in the world. We must follow WP:UCN. Users will be looking for the battle in "Palmyra", not for a battle in "Tadmur". RGloucester — ☎ 16:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Al-Qaryatayn

Please discuss here if Al-Qaryatayn info should be part of this page. In the mean time, information about Al-Qaryatayn capture added to here 495656778774 (talk) 08:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@EkoGraf, LightandDark2000, and 79.84.173.184: ping

@LimitationsAndRestrictions495656778774: This article is about the government offensive taking place in the outskirts of Palmyra. Qaryatayn is not even close to Palmyra. Its actually 121,5 kilometers away from Palmyra. Qaryatayn in fact is not even in the Palmyra/Tadmur district of the Homs Governorate...its in the Homs district of the Homs Governorate. So the event is even contradictory to the name of this article. Capture of Qaryatayn is part of a separate ISIS offensive. The two events are unrelated. However, I have no objections for the capture of Qaryatayn be mentioned in the article on Qaryatayn itself, as LimitationsAndRestrictions495656778774 has done (thank you for moving the information there so it is preserved). I also have no objections to create a new article that would deal with the ISIS-led offensive to capture the town since its a totally new event. However, the notability of the event itself is debatable (per WP policy we only create articles for notable events), but I'm fine ether way. EkoGraf (talk) 15:17, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it should be included, because it's in the same region, despite the difference. If you want to look at the east Homs Province as a whole, Qaryatayn would sit at the edge of the frontlines, and since it appears that ISIL is trying to capture all of east Homs (as predicted by the Institute for the Study of War), while the Syrian Army is attempting to counterattack and recapture Palmyra, it should all be included in the article. LightandDark2000 (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should rename this page to (Homs governorate offensive) to accommodate all information about: government offensive to Tadmur, ISIL occupation of Al-Qaryatayn, Clashes around T4 airbase. 3bdulelah (talk) 21:32, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is Original Research (not allowed per WP policy) to lump different unrelated events into one event. And I also don't see how a distance of 120 km makes them in the same region. The only thing in common for these two events are that they take place in the same province, nothing else. As for predictions that's also not per WP policy (read WP: NOTCRYSTALBALL). Create a new article if you will for the ISIS-led offensive taking place in a totally different district of the province. PS 3bdulelah, I would politely ask that you do not change the name of the article unilaterally while a discussion is ongoing. I thank LimitationsAndRestrictions for changing it back. Also, I would remind that per the policy set by WP administrators more than 1 revert on a Syria-related article within 24 hours is grounds for a block. EkoGraf (talk) 22:31, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I did not expect this to turn into an edition war... LlegóelBigotee (talk) 02:31, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not about distance. Palmyra offensive (May 2015) was talking about an offensive in a longer distance. also 2015 Northwestern Syria offensive was squeezing two important battles (battle of Ariha and battle of Jisr al-Shughur) with even different belligerents. anyway we can solve this out by creating a new article for the Qaryaten of

fensive. any suggestions for the title? 3bdulelah (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Homs campaign"? LlegóelBigotee (talk) 15:30, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Palmyra offensive (May 2015) was ONE ISIS-led offensive. Same goes for the 2015 Northwestern Syria offensive, it was also ONE rebel-led military operation/offensive. All events/battles pertaining to those two offensives were related. What we are debating here are TWO separate offensives/operations with events unrelated to eachother. The two offensives are not even led by the same party. PS If we created a Homs campaign article it would have to include all events throughout the province dating back to 2011, so no, opposed to that. Again, I propose to create a specific article on the takeover of Al-Qaryatayn. I think that's a fair compromise. EkoGraf (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The battle of victory in Jisr ashoghoor is totally different than Jaysh al-fateh in Idlib and Ariha. Anyway what is the best title of Isil takeover of Al-Qaryatayn? Battle of Al-Qaryatayn? 3bdulelah (talk) 00:00, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Idlib city was a separate offensive and thus we have a separate article for it. However, the 2015 Northwestern Syria offensive relates to both Jisr Ashoghoor, Sahel al-Ghab AND Ariha. Read the article and its sources. It was a three-pronged attack targeting those three places at the same time. In any case, doesn't matter. In regard to the best title name, considering there wasn't much of a battle and reliable sources didn't even call it as such I think ISIL takeover of Al-Qaryatayn would be the most appropriate. EkoGraf (talk) 06:04, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Where can I find the old text? can any body help me in creating this article. Fall of Al-Qaryatayn 3bdulelah (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Old text? The SAAF bombing you say? I believe somebody moved it here. LlegóelBigotee (talk) 00:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

17 August

According to the SOHR —the seemingly favorite source for the English language wiki—, intermittent clashes took place in Palmyra right up until the battle at the Triangle of East Homs. Shouldn't this be the official end of the offesnive? LlegóelBigotee (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Intermittent clashes continue even today and will continue in the future but that does not mean its part of a planned and organised offensive. Clashes on static frontlines are common in any war. Besides, there were no attempts at advances by ether side between 4 August and 17 August (almost 2 weeks). EkoGraf (talk) 14:56, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article in light of the offensive launched March 2016

This article seems to have originally been written with the idea in mind that the fall of Palmyra to the SAA was inevitable; what results is a muddled, confusing, and poorly written entry. 8 months from the original offensive and with the knowledge firmly in mind that ISIS utilized the pinning down of SAA/Hezbollah west of Palmyra in order to permanently take Qaryatayn and other territory in the first week of August, in the process gaining a vital supply line as well as opening another front against Government forces(see:attack against Sadad in October-November 2015). I see that the issue of relevancy has been discussed briefly above, with EkoGraf ludicrously arguing that the issue is not germane because Qaryatayn is not in the same "admistrative region" of Palmyra, despite being directly connected to it by road and within a couple hours drive from it. The taking of Qaryatayn was a direct consequence of the failed operation to retake Palmyra. This battle was was far from "indecisive" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 666DonQuixote666 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First, calling a fellow editor's arguments ludicrous is not per Wikipedia policy on assuming good faith and being civil. Second, the Qaryatayn operation was a separate military operation (launched by ISIL) for which we have a separate article. Third, unless you have sources that directly link the Palmyra and Qaryatayn operations, any speculation made that they are is considered unsourced OR (Original Research) which is not permitted per WP policy. Cheers! EkoGraf (talk) 16:17, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NSFW Image!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War

When you hover over the 'Palmyra offensive (July–August 2015)' under the 'US intervention (September 2014 – September 2015)' section, it shows a naked dude!! Ew!! Please fix! :D

2606:A000:1118:C737:6569:C2C3:8E7:34B7 (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]