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Article name and alpha sort

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Khenchen is an honorific title, a concatenation of Khenpo (a degree similar to Geshe) and Chen, roughly meaning "great." Given that we never include Dr., Mrs., Kyabjé, H.H. (His Holiness), H.E. (His Eminence), Venerable, HRH (Her Royal Highness) or virtually any other honorific or descriptive title in the titles of articles named for persons, should not this article be moved to Palden Sherab? Also, and separately, someone who knows what they're doing with it should add the DEFAULTSORT stuff to this article so that the categories and whatnot are not being alphabetized under K; that said, I'm not sure what the conventions are for sorting Tibetan names since there is no proper concept of surname (i.e., all the names are "given" names). --Geoff Capp (talk) 00:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 3 October 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:53, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Palden Sherab → Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche – The full name, and the name used on publications, by said author, teacher, and scholar is Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche. Palden Sherab is an unknown version of his name. (For equipment reasons, the move is being requested.) Pasdecomplot (talk) 18:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 21:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes @Kj cheetham it's true some titles are listed with only KPS, but not all. And certainly not Palden Sherab alone. Beyond Amazon, please see padmasambhava.org and their store Chiso for images of titles and for standards of KPSR's name.
  • It's sometimes confusing for people when several names are used, but even with the use of several names, certain combinations of names aren't correct or respectful. For example, I had to see the picture before understanding Palden Sherab was actually Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche. Also, Palden Sherab isn't really respectful, since it omits the names which signify high levels of wisdom and accomplishment.
  • Note the Wikipedia standard of using Rinpoche in the page's title when the subject is honored with the name. Thus, Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche, again.
  • Similar problems also occur in other Tibetan Buddhist pages, where editors aren't sure what all the names signify. Best general practice is to use all the names, and discover if there is also a commonly used version by students and close people which is still considered respectful. These points should have been added to the original request - apologies to all, and thanks for relisting @BegbertBiggs.
  • Fyi, @Amakuru it wasn't an officially contested move, but an equipment issue. Otherwise, I simply would have made the changes weeks ago. Pasdecomplot (talk) 23:03, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Without additional responses, I will proceed to move the page. Thanks! Pasdecomplot (talk) 18:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pasdecomplot: Sorry, that's not how the RM process works. You must wait for an uninvolved editor to assess consensus and close the discussion (see WP:RMCI). I have reverted the article to the previous title for the time being. BegbertBiggs (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks for the advice and the response. Sorry if I misstepped. It seemed as if all the reasons, as listed in the response, are strong enough to move ahead, especially the reason of respect, together with usage at provided sites. There's also agreement in using KPS, and pages typically include Rinpoche as evidenced. Thus, Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche is appropriate. What's the wait time, usually? May I submit a request for the attention of an uninvolved editor? Pasdecomplot (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. How long it takes for someone to close a RM can be hard to predict, because some discussions are harder to assess than others. WP:RFCLOSE exists as a venue to request closures, but I'd wait a few more days before posting there. BegbertBiggs (talk) 20:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks BegbertBiggs. I'll keep waiting. Pasdecomplot (talk) 22:13, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also note Would add to the request that Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche's center's sadhanas (prayer books) list his full spiritual name as Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche, not just Khenchen Palden Sherab. And:

  • A sangha website uses the full spiritual name of "Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [1]
  • Biography from a main US center uses the full name in "The Life & Legacy of Ven. Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [2]
  • Independant 2003 teaching listings uses full name as "Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [3]
  • Buddhist bookseller Namse Bangdzo uses full name as "Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [4]
  • Biography from Dharma Fellowship's Contemporary Masters uses full name as "The Venerable Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [5]
  • China\Buddhist Encyclopedia entry uses full name as "Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [6]
  • Google Books carries at least ten titles by "Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" and its biography uses "Ven. Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche" at [7] and "Khenchen+Palden+Sherab+Rinpoche"#ip=1

I trust these additional links provide information necessary to change the name on this page, and complete the request. Pasdecomplot (talk) 12:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC) added additional links Pasdecomplot (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just looked at RFCLOSE: Could we close the request here, and use full spiritual name, or would you say it's still unclear @BegbertBiggs and that we need a formal close? What's the advice? Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is the text which supports going ahead with the request, since discussion has slowed down and it's been more than 30 days since the contest from Amazon books was provided. (As a counter note, the Amazon https text[8] and Amazon's title descriptions use the full name as "Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche".) "Many discussions result in a reasonably clear consensus, so if the consensus is clear, any editor—even one involved in the discussion—may close the discussion. The default length of a formal request for comment is 30 days (opened on or before 12 October 2020); if consensus becomes clear before that and discussion has slowed, then it may be closed early. However, editors usually wait at least a week after a discussion opens, unless the outcome is very obvious, so that there is enough time for a full discussion." If I understand correctly, the consensus is also reasonably clear now, and thus the request can move forward. Are you uninvolved enough BegbertBiggs to complete the request? Asking since instructions seem to say formal requests are preferred for highly contentious moves. Which this is not. Pasdecomplot (talk) 23:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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