Talk:Paisios of Mount Athos/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

This info should be moved to page Elder Paisios —Preceding unsigned comment added by Victor-435 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Elder Paisios is of of mid importance for wikiproject Greece??? Why? O.K. there are some thousand guys who consider him important and say he was a saint. However he was just a man living on a mountain who would give people advice and inform them about subjects he was uninformed or he could't understand.i.e. How to face the passion and problem of homosexuality, or about the fact that the theory of evolution is obviously wrong. Keep in mind that Manos Hatzidakis, one of the most important Greek composers ever, is considered of the same importance! Haztidakis is famous worldwide and millions of people consider him a very important personality. In fact it is rather difficult to meet someone who disagrees that Chatzidakis is one of the most important Greeks of the 20th century. How can these two men be considered of the same importance? --NNeilAlieNN (talk) 12:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it is not a "few thousand". Most Greeks, even vaguely, know who he is and those that know usually love him. I certainly do, and I am not even very religious. Maybe he is not important to you, that is absolutely fine, but don't be so dismissive.

• Elder Paisios wasn't just a "man living on a mountain". He was a spiritual leader, this can easily be proved just by the number of copies of his books, including "Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain" of course. He is venerated worldwide, not only in Greece but especially in Russia. Elder Paisios significance can be rejected by someone, by non believers etc., but he has indisputable authority among Orthodox believers. His glorification is anticipated (cited by non Greek sources); it is, in fact, just a matter of time. B7elijah (talk) 20:34, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Undo weight

This version [[1]] is the definition of WP:UNDUE, since a short lived & recently created facebook site is much more detailed than the biography of the person itself. I would also suggest to avoid aggresive edit summaries and blind reverts.Alexikoua (talk) 13:36, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE? hardly. The discussion is not on wheather the Earth is flat, is about truying to hide the Golden Dawn role through the Greek parliament which is a reporting the facts. So... which facts you thing are too much? maybe we could find a compromise? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 17:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Then you are in the wrong article, the biography is completely irrelevant with the issue you try to give in more detail that the biography itself. Maybe some rewording of a tiny sentence is quite enough, maybe with brief comments about G.Down involvement. But all this social stuff is really fringe.Alexikoua (talk) 18:44, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Also the name of the supposed perpetrator should be removed per wp:blpAlexikoua (talk) 18:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

The name is not of a supposed perpetrator, but of an arrested man (as given by the media), should we perhaps replace the name of the JFK killer with the "an american citizen" sentence?msymeonakis (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

In such instances we should be carefull and not reveal personal data per policy. JFK isn't a wp:blp case.Alexikoua (talk) 21:35, 27 October 2012 (UTC) In such case neither is Paisios. However "not reveal personal data per policy"? Wich policy forbids exact reporting of facts? The data has been given by the media, and the arrested "Greek Citizen" has gave a televised interview with his real name, also please keep in mind that the article is under the name "Controversy", the reader kows that he is going to read oopinions that could sound "different to him". Mainstream media links exist for the exact reason to support facts provided, and i have provided more then enough links to support the article.msymeonakis (talk) 12:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

msymeonakis (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The matter of naming the individual is now discussed at BLPN

The relevant section is at: Inserting the name of an individual under arrest into two articles. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh of an individual how gave a televised interview included on the links provided by my part... P.S.: why mainstream links have been deleted?msymeonakis (talk) 17:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Many of the edits which were deleted were not referenced. Also much of the information was undue WP:UNDUE weight for this article. There was also original research and synthesis present. If in the deleted material there is anything of value to this article it can be readded but it has to be discussed here first. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:59, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)After a user at BLPN advised, I also suggest a reading of WP:BLPCRIME which specifically mentions:

A person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law. For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured.

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, i hav read it, an i repeat, in the links provided there is a televised interview of the guy stating his name and the entire ordeal, in whic case WP:BLPCRIME is not the case, the case is about well sourced (as should be) blp.msymeonakis (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This is according to your own opinion. I would suggest you go to the link I provided and make your case at WP:BLPN. The way this stands now this name is not going into the article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:01, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Original research? cmon!? i have provided mainstream links and have been delet times and again... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 18:03, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

All of this edit was unsourced:

various religious aspects of Greece such as infant baptism, religious teaching in schools and non separation of church and state through the eyes of Pastafarianism, the satirical pseudo-religion "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster," which has been used to lampoon the teaching of creationism in schools. The main satire focused on his real and supposed bibliography that ranged from his prophecies on the end of the world, the upbringing of children, couples' relationships to his diet... underlining the exploitation of Paisios by newspapers, thousands of websites, publishers, radios that sold the supposed prophecies and advice of the elder, who according to the faithful, had managed to foresee everything, from the fall of the Soviet Union to the recent Greek debt crisis. What angered many in the Greek Orthodox church leadership (to the extent to provoke a question to the Greek Parliament by the neo-nazi Golden Dawn party rasing questions between their historic in one hand and their possible -on the other hand- ties) was that the page created a fictional story of a posthumous miracle by the Elder, which was later reproduced to numerous Orthodox and far-right online and print outlets and became a cover story on the far-right newspaper "Eleftheri Ora". The story was based on several existing tales that were already circulating online and involved a miraculous recovery of a teenage drug addict who had been in a coma due to a car accident and woke up after his mother placed dirt from Elder Paisios’ grave in a talisman under her son’s pillow.

All of these sentences are unsourced. Can you provide reliable sources which verify all these claims? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This edit was trimmed version from Elder Pastitsios where -of course- there was no accusation for original synthesis... plus.. really? you need links for infant baptism?!!! Religious teaching in school???? Separation of church and state??? you really need links for this??? heh... more on it, did'nt the articles provided mention golden dawn instigation in the Greek Parliament??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 19:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC) msymeonakis (talk) 19:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

In case you have deleted the link of Christian Science Monitor before reading it... here it is

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/1002/Blasphemy-in-democracy-s-birthplace-Greece-arrests-Facebook-user

AKA:

The issue of the Pastitsios page was brought to the attention of the minister of public order by a member of parliament belonging to Golden Dawn, the neo-fascist party that entered the Greek legislature for the first time in May. Golden Dawn's popularity has been rising, and as a result it is able to influence the public agenda, with the help of the populist Greek media and the government’s fear of losing its more conservative voters. The accused, whose identity has not been made public, had created and managed the Facebook page Elder Pastitsios the Pastafarian, a name that plays on a combination of Elder Paisios, a famous, late Greek-Orthodox monk, and the Greek food pastitsio, a baked pasta dish made of ground beef and béchamel sauce. The term "pastafarian" is a reference to the satirical pseudo-religion "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster," which has been used to lampoon creationism. The picture of Elder Pastitsios has a pastitsio where the monk’s face should be. Paisios, who died in 1994, is well-known in Greece for his spiritual teachings. There have been dozens of books published about him and his prophecies, including such topics as the end of the world, the upbringing of children, couples' relationships, even the diet Paisios supposedly followed. LINKED enough??msymeonakis (talk) 19:22, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

For the rest please look for "Eleytheri Ora" first page of 10 AUGUST 2012.msymeonakis (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Please try to uderstand what I am telling you. I am not asking for references about baptism etc. What I am saying is that YOU put all these comments together and nobody else. WP:SYNTH says:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research

This means you went around, gathered all this known stuff to you and you added it in the article. Sadly this commentary is all yours, not somebody else's. It is your own synthesis. As such it is not allowed into the article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

There is neither implication... nor conclusion, just reporting the facts as they appeared on greek and internationll press. Would you be kind enough to point them out? Are the links provided implications? in not why are they deleted?msymeonakis (talk) 19:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

lets do it together line by line... whot you think is irrelevant?msymeonakis (talk) 19:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

For instance, whose commentary is this?

underlining the exploitation of Paisios by newspapers, thousands of websites, publishers, radios that sold the supposed prophecies and advice of the elder, who according to the faithful, had managed to foresee everything, from the fall of the Soviet Union to the recent Greek debt crisis.

I don't see any "Soviet Union" or "Greek debt crisis" mentioned in any of the sources you supplied. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Also this:

What angered many in the Greek Orthodox church leadership (to the extent to provoke a question to the Greek Parliament by the neo-nazi Golden Dawn party rasing questions between their historic in one hand and their possible -on the other hand- ties) was that the page created a fictional story of a posthumous miracle by the Elder, which was later reproduced to numerous Orthodox and far-right online and print outlets and became a cover story on the far-right newspaper "Eleftheri Ora".

Can you supply the reference which claims all that?

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

And who says this:

The story was based on several existing tales that were already circulating online and involved a miraculous recovery of a teenage drug addict who had been in a coma due to a car accident and woke up after his mother placed dirt from Elder Paisios’ grave in a talisman under her son’s pillow.

?

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

• Greek crisis and fall of soviet union, wikipedia, internal wikipedia link from Pastitsios. These have been said by himself on the video interview provided.
• Eleythei Ora first page: Eleytheri Ora first page of 10 August 2012. Again in the inteview link, Pastitsios cites the story himself as a styre story, more link on the hoax again in Wikipedia Pastitsios page with links on Pre-Eleyheri Ora circulation of the Hoax.
• Golden Dawn instigation in the Greek Parliament, i included 2 different versions, one of the Cristian Science Monitor, and one Of Kathimerini.
• The Talisman story in its detail is wikipedia Pastitsios.msymeonakis (talk) 20:00, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

to save you some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLGalea0NnMmsymeonakis (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

"Seleo.gr" is not a reliable source. Youtube is not a reliable source and the "Prin newspaper" link does not work Stavroula, Katerina (September 30, 2012) "Γέρων Παστίτσιος: Σύλληψη κατ'εντολή της Χρυσής Αυγής [Elder Pastitsios: Arrest by order of Golden Dawn". Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

These are not links provided by me. : ) my links are Cristian science monitor kathimerini and the video which is interview by hot docmsymeonakis (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The rest was internally linke to wikipedia... chech history in Pastitsios. : )msymeonakis (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Prin newspaper, apparently keeps articles online for a period of one month... (keep the names maybe we can find the printed article)...msymeonakis (talk) 20:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I restored your edit. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

• Heh... Soviet Union.. (bare in mind that since the cult of paisios is not mainstream... its surces -links- are of minor importance, hence limited reliability, someone could work his way around only by buying his books, again this could be a problem of copyrights when it comes to uploading it... the same applies for Greek Crisis profecies... from newspaper frontpages)... i'd also like the Hot Doc televised interview of Pastitsios restored please... and in turn a official Greek orthodox church link on "his canonization as a saint in the near future". thank you.

http://www.alopsis.gr/modules.php?name=Content&pa=printpage&pid=347 "5e Elder Paisios’s prophetic insight was also evident when he informed a certain person that the Soviet Union would collapse. However, this person refused to accept this because of the military strength of that country. The elder nevertheless insisted that this would happen and that he was going to be a witness to that event. He also took the opportunity to mention that Constantinople would return to Greek hands in the near future. This prophecy was made in 1990 when a group of students from the Athonite school went to visit the elder in order to ask him whether this would actually happen, after having heard about this from others who had been in contact with the elder. However, these students were hesitant about asking this question. On leaving the elders keli, elder Paisios turned around and said to them: “You should be aware that Constantinople will revert to Greek hands and you will all live to see this event” "msymeonakis (talk) 06:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• One more mainstream link on the Golden Dawn lawmaker -Xristos Pappas (hope not BLP since he is a lawmaker -public figure-)- question to the greek parliament

http://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/?aid=225181 msymeonakis (talk) 07:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The Pastitsios interview does not belong in this article because the details belong in the main Pastitsios article. It would be WP:UNDUE weight to include the information here. The actual Pastisios interview is also a WP:PRIMARY source; as such we cannot analyse it on our own. Doing so is original research. For all these reasons this interview should not be added here. In addition other details of the Golden Dawn actions should also be added to the other article per WP:SUMMARY. In any case you are free to add any information regarding Elder Paisios's life as long as it is supported by reliable sources. I am not sure where is the link of the canonisation of the Elder but please feel free to add it on your own. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• Having deleted, the core of the controversy aka "who, why, when for wich reason and by which means" (allready existent prior to my edit in Pastitsios wikipage but regarded as synthesis in paisios page after my edit) i'd like to insist for the addition of the interview so the core of the controversy cane be readily be found, after all according to WP:PRIMARY well founded secondary sources "do exist" to support it.msymeonakis (talk) 02:37, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• • I can't see why we have to include the interview in this article. This article is about the life of the elder. The controversy is just a recent event and it is not germaine to the life of the elder. As such per WP:RECENTISM, WP:UNDUEWEIGHT, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER etc. etc., I don't think we need to include the interview here. But you are free to add it to the Pastitsios article if it is not already there. I just can't bring myself to read the other article to see if it's already there. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'm done... much ado about nothing... let's close it here (i only wanted the core of the controversy readily available)... you can also delete the "without...profanity" phrase it is said at the Christian Science Monitor... That's pretty much all from my part.msymeonakis (talk) 09:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• • Yes, I left the "without profanity" expression because I wanted to edit your words in a minimal fashion. But I agree that removing it would improve the sentence. Since you asked, I'll remove it. Thanks. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:04, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Althoght i'd like a Greek newspaper link added at the Golden Dawn (last phrase linked with Christian S.Monitor) alongside Christian science monitor... http://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/?aid=225181 please feel free to remove the disoute (POV tag) with our without it.. as you please. Thank you for your attention and collaboration. You are also welcomed to join the Hellenic Police /Allegations of collaboration with Golden Dawn dispute-talk page and help save some links : ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msymeonakis (talk • contribs) 09:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done And thank you for your kind invitation, however I can get involved in so many controversies around here. I'm afraid I may have exceeded my controversy number quota. :) Regardless, it was a pleasure meeting you as you are an exceedingly civil and reasonable editor. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 13:58, 1 November 2012 (UTC)