Talk:PWI's list of wrestling World Heavyweight Title reigns

untitled

This list of champions needs to be fixed--JB 11:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

GHC, 1PW, & CZW World Titles

OK, seriously, these titles need to be added. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be at this point. [[User:Noah's Arc|Noah's Arc]

Maybe because none of them are world titles? That's a very good reason. Just because a indy fed says their title is a world title doesn't make it so. And yes, all 3 of those are just indy feds. TJ Spyke 22:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

All the GHC titles have been defended outside of Japan, including the heavyweight title in Ring of Honor recently. I wouldn't consider NOAH just an Indy fed. CZW and 1PW I understand, but NOAH has had their championships defended in Japan, England, Mexico and the US. --WarEagleRK 8 December 2006

official title reigns

Can we just put in official title reigns only please--JB 06:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I have not been doing edits to wrestling articles of late, but I had to do some edits to correct some revisionist history on this page I created when I saw it. If you look at the history records and add up the titles, Ric Flair held a version of the recognized by Pro Wrestling Illustrated a total of 22 times, not 16 as World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) claims. That is why I reverted that back to the original.

As for Ted DiBiase, he bought the title and did hold it whether WWE says so or not. Larry Zbysko did a similar thing with the NWA National Heavyweight Championship and he is in their title history. I think DiBiase held the title because you have to hold a title to be stripped of it. That is my humble opinion on the matter.

Just keeping "official" title reigns knocks Flair down 6 reigns just because that is what WWE says. WWE does not have the right to do some revisionist history on titles it did not control until the acquisitions in recent years. They do have the right to have a say about DiBiase, but as I said, he had to be stripped of the title and that means he had to hold the title in order to be stripped of it. --phatcat68 21:35, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

WWE does not claim DiBiase as a former Champion. From everything I have read PWI has never recognized any titles from Japan as World Titles. It should also be noted that they stopped recognizing the NWA title as a World Title after the WCW Title was created, making Flair's 16 reigns correct. (The footnote is also incorrect. Flair called himself the 16 time World Champion in WCW.) Further more, they did not recognize the ECW Title as a World Title until Tazz's first reign when ECW secured a national TV deal. Currently, as stated in recent issues, they only recognize the two Titles from WWE. --67.175.8.60 08:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I can see your point however even Ric Flair has never claimed that he was a "22 time" world champion. Going back to his days in WCW, but I can see how technically he is a 22 time champion. As far as Ted DiBiase, he has never been recognized as a World Champion by any organization, and the opinion of whether he was or not is actually irrelevant. When you look at what happened, Andre was actually the one stripped of the title since DiBiase never "officially" held it. I think the case that was made was that the title was simply declared vacant but Andre was still awarded the victory over Hogan.

What about the Global Honored Crown of PW NOAH?

From the way I understand it PWI considers the New Japan, All Japan, and NOAH Titles to be regional or international titles, but not World Titles. For instance, they call the current NWA title the NWA Heavyweight Title, not calling it a World Title. They call New Japan's Title the International Wrestling Grand Prix Heavyweight title, not giving it World Title status, but not denying it International Title Status (if that means anything). They are very specific in their wording of what titles are what (to them).--Talison 08:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The GHC title has never actually been defended outside of Japan, in fact it's rarely been defended outside of Tokyo if I remember correctly, so no matter PWI's exact system for recognition it could never be a world title. --Kiltman67 17:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the GHC title has been defended in ROH recently, would that change it's status? --WarEagleRK 26 November 2006

Why isn't Shane Douglas' 3 reigns as ECW World champion being recognized on this page? He is just listed as 1 time NWA champion. Douglas held the ECW title after it gained world title status 3 times.--WarEagleRK 26 November 2006

Granted World Title status on August 27, 1999 by PWI. Championship reigns before this date aren't considered world championships. Secretaria 12:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

So PWI is the authority? PWI didn't recognize the WCW international or the NWA title after 1991 as world titles they were just listed as "NWA champion" and "WCW International champion". Those titles weren't recognized world titles at the time. Much like the the WWWF title from 1971-1983, as they were NWA members and PWI didn't just listed them as "WWWF champion" instead of WWWF World champion. This would mean 2 Flair title reigns, Barry Windham, 3 Rick Rude, 2 Sting,& Hase would all lose title reigns.--WarEagleRK 28 November 2006

PWI recently (a few months ago I think) said they had given world title status back to NWA and applied it ot previous champs, they also said they were giving world title status back to wrestlers who held the WWWF title between 1971 and 1983. I'm not sure about WCW International though. TJ Spyke 01:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, can someone answer why a mostly kayfabe magazine would be the bible on what is determined a world title? And if so, then the WCW International title should lose World title status as would the ROH title. As of earlier this year because they never listed it as a world title and rarely had their world champion ranked in their top 10, and almost never in their top 5.

Also, if PWI has gone back and recognized those mid-90's NWA champions as world champions, then the ECW title as of August 27, 1994 that grew out of Shane Douglas winning the NWA title probably should be recognized here as a world title. Raven defended it in Japan as early as 1996 and it was recognized and referred to as being a World title. Still I'm not sure where PWI is the bible.--WarEagleRK 8 December 2006

No, PWI said they were giving world title status back to those NWA champions, but not to the ECW Title (so only champions August 1999 and later count). PWI is considered the authority when it comes to this matter. And lord knows we can't just use any title that is called a world title since almost every indy fed calls their belt a world title. TJ Spyke 00:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"Pro Wrestling Illustrated has historically granted world title status to the following promotions: WWWF/WWF/WWE, NWA, ECW (now defunct), AWA (now defunct, and not to be confused with post-1991 versions of the AWA), and WCW (now defunct). PWI currently differentiates between a WWE Raw World Champion and a WWE Smackdown World Champion. It does not recognize the current incarnations of the ECW or AWA titles as world titles." Is this proven? Because this has been said too many times over wikipedia, specially in this discussion page. We need to settle this quickly.Secretaria 11:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Table

Can some one fix the table I tried to and had to revert it--JB 00:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Flair's reigns

As far as I know Flair only had 6 reigns as WCW champ so I changed it, I want there to conclusive proof that Flair held it 8 times before it is changed back. I don't want dispute over this at all.

Wrestling Information Archive's title history, Wikipedia's Title History, and Flair's own Wiki Article all have him listed as an 8-time WCW champion. Clint 17:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hogan

How does he have no WCW reigns, but 6 WCW international reigns? billz015

Could the word Wrestling appear in the title please? DJ Clayworth 18:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Hogan is a former IWGP champion. I edited this in before, but someone edited it out.

Indeed, but that championship was won in 1983, four years before being recognized as world championship. Therefore Hogan isn't recognized as IGWP "World Champion". I won't edit it out but the criteria for this page should be discussed. Secretaria 09:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Hogan won the first IWGP "championship" in 1981. I have updated the article to reflect this information. Eric42 16:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Does the AWA actually recognize Hogan as a former champion? According to their official webpage they do not. http://www.awastars.com/title.htm

Actually, even on the page you linked to, he is listed twice, so the answer to your question is Yes, they do. (btw, four ~ can be used to "sign" your name.) Eric42 03:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think if someone had a phantom title change or a Dusty finish it would make them the champion. Like the Flair/Midnight Rider or the Flair/Veneno changes. The official NWA webpage doesn't recognize these title changes as official either. These people aren't former champions. http://www.nwawrestling.com/information/history/world/heavyweight.htm

WarEagleRK Aug 20, 2006.

World title status

The ECW World Title does not include Eastern Championship Wrestling Heavyweight Title reigns, because at its time it did not hold world status, only territorial status, this largely effects the Sandman who won one title in the Eastern, and 5 In the Extreme, thats 6 title reigns in the same organization yet only 5 are recognizable as having world status, although confusing it is fair.

If this is the case, then why are Low Ki and Xavier on the list? They held the ROH title before it attained world title status. Tromboneguy0186 18:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The same can be said for Inoki as he held the IWGP title before it became a world title. We need someone who can clarify what happens to previous holders when a title becomes a world title. With the ECW title you could perhaps argue that the Eastern and Extreme titles were different but the same cannot be said for the ROH or IWGP. --Kiltman67 17:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Only people who have won the title while it held World Title status are considered world champions. That also means some former WWWF/WWF/WWE Champions aren't consider former world champions because WWWF didn't have world title status from 1973-1981(they were stripped of world title status when they re-joined the NWA). As for Japans titles, i'm not sure whether PWI considers them World Titles since I can't find any mention of which title are world titles on their website. TJ Spyke 23:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree... there needs to be an identifiable standard set when it comes to how/when a belt is considered a World Heavyweight Title and how it retroactively affects previous holders... as in the cases mentioned, ROH, NJPW-IWGP, and WWWF/WWF/WWE all have champions listed who held the belt when it wasn't a "World Title", but ECW's champions of the sort aren't listed for a reason that isn't consistent with the examples given. Personally, I think it would be easier to just state that when a title earns World Title Status, all holders (including previous holders) are credited with World Title reigns, even if the title didn't have such status at the time. Its not as solid a method as going through and clearing out all champs who held the belt during non World Title Status periods, but its a lot simpler and devoid of controversy. I would also argue that Eastern Championship Wrestling and Extreme Championship Wrestling are the same company. All that changed was the name and the NWA affiliation. In addition, when former Eastern owner Todd Gordon filed a lawsuit against the WWE for using Eastern material with the Extreme footage on WWE 24/7 (claiming that they were separate entities and that he-- Gordon-- was sole owner of Eastern), the judge threw the suit out... Clint 03:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

ECW is the same company, all they did was change their name(like when WWF became WWE, it's still the same company). TJ Spyke 03:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This month's PWI (August 2006 cover date) gives World Title Status back to the NWA Heavyweight and Tag Team Titles. In Stu Saks editorial he discusses the history of PWI's granting World Title Status. Once again they state the only Titles ever granted status are the W/WWF/E, NWA pre 91 and now, AWA, and ECW. As I have read in many other issues as well as PWI Almanacs and special publications they do not (nor have they ever)recognize the IWGP Heavyweight, Triple Crown, GHC, or any other Japanese Titles as World Titles.--Talison 23:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it apparently is effecting Shane Douglas as well. Shane was ECW champion 2 times after the change from Eastern to Extreme and was the ECW champion during the change over, but none of those are listed. WarEagleRK Aug. 20, 2006

Change of name?

I don't think the name of this article is proper. The word "Heavyweight" should be added in, because I don't see any Cruiserweight titles listed here. Also, "according to PWI" should probably be added at the end as well. SilentRage 07:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree regarding the Heavyweight name... it's only fair considering there are no other World Titles being listed here... I'm not so sure regarding the "PWI" addition to the title, especially considering that its an independent standard. Without such standard, any promotion who claims to have a World Title would have a World Title, and we'd have to acknowledge them and clutter this page with indy wrestlers who've held a meaningless belt many times... Clint 03:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Uh yeah... adding "according to PWI" in the title would do just what you said. It would help make this article less cluttered and prevent people from adding non-PWI approved "world titles". SilentRage 05:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

People need to read the article before editing it. If they read the article, they'll be more than aware that the standard is set by PWI, and therefore they should not include any non-PWI approved titles. You don't have to identify an official source in the title for this, but it is necessary in the explanation. I maintain that its fine as is... Clint 05:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

CZW, WWA, & PWG World Titles?

On the page listed "World Heavyweight Championship", it list Combat Zone Wrestling, World Wrestling All-stars, & Pro Wrestling Guerrilla as World titles. If this is true shouldn't why are they not recognized by PWI?

The WWA World Heavyweight Title is recognized as a World Title... CZW and PWG are only listed on the World Heavyweight Championship page because they have belts they claim to be World Heavyweight Championships. Due to the fact that they are independent promotions that don't have worldwide scope (their belts aren't defended internationally, overseas, etc.), they don't qualify for World Title Status as per PWI... Clint 03:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, don't know about the CZW title but the PWG Heavyweight title has been defended in Europe at least twice. --Kiltman67 03:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'm wrong then... but PWI apparently still doesn't acknowledge them as World Titles. If they do, someone needs to change the article and cite the source... Clint 06:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Please justfy Flair's reigns on this page

If we are going to "stretch the truth about Flair's title reigns, then you need to adjust the numbers for the other wrestlers as well. You have Flair listed as a 13 time NWA champ - it could be listed as 14. The 4 that are very questionable are the matches with Colon, Jovica, Veneno and the Midnight Rider match. This page is obviously only recognizing 3 of those matches - but which 3? Colon is listed as a 1 time champ but neither Jovica or Veneno are listed here, and Dusty is only given credit for 3 titles (his "official" number).

I'd advise signing your posts... anyway, I don't see any "stretching of the truth". Flair's reigns are listed according to each individual promotion's official title history. So what if WWE ignores that Flair won the belt in NWA 5 more times than they care to acknowledge? It still happened. If you want more detailed explanations, go to his article and read up. This is just a list of numbers, as the title says. Clint 06:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the official NWA webpage Flair is a 10 time NWA champion, and the Midnight Rider, Colon & Veneno aren't former champions. http://www.nwawrestling.com/information/history/world/heavyweight.htm WarEagleRK

Sandman

On the table, it says that Sandman is only a one time champion when it should be four, according to that note at the bottom. Speaking of that note, Sandman has only won the ECW title 5 times, not 6. I would change it myself, but all of that code looks like gibberish to me and I don't want to screw anything up. So somebody should fix that. SilentRage 05:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. I fixed it myself. I guess that I didn't screw anything up after all. :D SilentRage 19:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The code is a pattern of columns. Its hard to get when looking at the whole picture, but if you look at the title row and the first two rows it starts to make sense... Clint 06:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

FWA

On the 25/10/2002 in London England Christopher Daniels defeated Jody Fleisch & Doug Williams in a three-way match to become the first FWA British Heavyweight Champion who wasn't British. Then on 22/03/2003 at the Murphy Recreation Center in Philadelphia, PA Doug Williams defeated Christopher Daniels for the title. This match took place overseas so should the FWA British Heavyweight Championship be the FWA World Heavyweight Championship and given world title status Sion

All you had to do was read the first paragraph on this article to answer your question. ONLY World Titles recognized by PWI are listed here. SilentRage 05:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

your right but i see what sion is saying, if the FWA Title was won overseas then it has the right to be a world title just like the ROH or WWA World Title. Chris

While that may technically be true it's easier if we just stick to the PWI recongnized titles simply due to the numerous titles that have been defended overseas of their promotion, it would be impossible to keep track of all of them.--Trick man01 11:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If I started a promotion with 6 of my friends, won the title, then drove 20 miles to Canada and defended the belt, would I be a World Champion on this page? Tino 01:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

WWWF, WWA, ECW, Noah Reigns

A few quick comments (and I love this page, I am just trying to make it more complete). All ECW champions should probably be considerd world champions retroactively, and if you listen to current TV or check WWE.com you can see that all people who held the ECW title at one time or another are given credit as World Champ (Sandman - 5, Sabu - 2, Funk - 2, by the way, if you don't agree with this, Funk should still be a 2 time champ on this page) Let's face it, the way many people will remember history will be by what is WWE's history, which is more powerful than PWI. I know that means we have to consider Johnny Hot Body a world champ, but oh well.

Also don't forget there was a period in the late 70's - to early 80's when PWI revoked WWF world title status, they had rejoined the NWA, but who cares for the sake of this page.

I also think if at all possible we should include the WWA Los Angeles on this page. On a worldwide basis you can make a good argument that the the WWA title was the 2nd most important belt during the late 50's early 60's. Only the NWA title carried more weight. If we are not going to count champions before the NWA, than we should still count champions from the start of the NWA. I am shocked there is no WWA LA title info on WIkipedia.

Also, PWI or no PWI, not including Noah's world title is BS. In recent years, especially during the Kobashi reign, this title was as prestigious as any in Japan.

I would love to hear others comments on this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.88.18.99 (talk • contribs) .

While prestigious the title was never defended outside of Japan which is a requirement for consideration as a world title --Kiltman67 02:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's being defended in New York City this Saturday. Does that make a difference? Tromboneguy0186 07:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. Technically PWI never gave ROH world title status either. TJ Spyke 19:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I know it's a bitch to prove a negative, but what evidence is there of that? Tromboneguy0186 11:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This is getting a bit out of hand. We need proof!

I have noticed that alot of people on here aren't sure what is considered a true WH title and which exact champions are infact WH champs. Alot of confusion is going on! So what we NEED for this article to continue being edited properly, is documented PROOF on the guidelines of what PWI considers to be a World Heavyweight Champion/Championship. Please also remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~), so that we know who we are talking to. SilentRage 05:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. For now though, only the people who have won the titles stated on this page(and during the periods listed) should be included. This means leaving Sandman at 1 since he only won the ECW Title once while it was a world title. TJ Spyke 18:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I know it's not concrete, but I sent this e-mail to London Publishing(the company prints PWI, like Ziff Davis and EGM):

• I have a quick question, when a wrestling title gets World Title status does that apply to previous winners of the title as well? For example, since the ECW Title didn't get world title status until 1999 does that make The Sandman a 1 time or 5 time World Champion? What about the WWE Title which from 1971-1983 lost world title status?

I got this response from editor-in-chief Stu Saks: "That's an excellent question!
I confess that we are not terribly consistent on this. With ECW, we did not grant any retroactive world title status to champions prior to 1999. However, we are doing so with NWA champions who held the title during their tenure with TNA, but not before.
The WWE/F title was stripped of world title status only briefly during the mid-1980s. We have publicly stated that that was a mistake on our part.
Stu Saks."

So it would appear that WWWF/WWF Champions during 1971-1983 do have world title status, but at the moment only ECW Champion from 1999 and afterwards have world title status. TJ Spyke 01:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Damn... couldn't they have done something simpler and just granted such status to all champions (retroactive and future) for a World Title? And how does this affect the winners of the ROH Title? According to how it affects the AWA, NWA, and WWF champions, its definitely going to force us to edit that as well... Clint 06:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: I just realized that this qualifies as "original research" or something like that. While I find it credible if you'll show me the email (I'll go out on a limb and trust you), I don't think it classifies as anything by Wikipedia's standards... Clint 06:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

PWI World Title Recognition

I saw it pointed out above, but think it needs to be restated:

While this article claims to be a list of "World" Championships recognized by PWI, PWI has only ever officially recognized five championships as World Championships (this also applies to recognized World Tag Team Championships):

• WWF/WWE World Championship (the version currently on Raw)
• NWA World Championship
• AWA World Championship
• WCW World Championship
• ECW World Championship

The current "World" titles of Raw and SmackDown are not "officially" recognized as World Championships, but instead merely as the WWE Raw Championship and WWE SmackDown Championship respectively. It seems PWI's criteria for such recognition is: a) the title must have, at some point, been defended outside the US, and b) the organization must have a national television show. This affects every title on the list except the WCW World Title. The WWE Title from 1971-1983, as well as the WWE Titles since the Raw and SmackDown split, the NWA Title from the beginning of WCW in 1991 until the beginning of TNA in 2002, the pre-1999 ECW Title, and the AWA Title after 1992. Any other title included in the article was never "officially" recognized as a World Title by PWI. - Michael.douglas.dean 10:16 7 Jul 06

In that case, the IWGP Heavyweight Title IS a World Title, since it's been defended on foreign soil on more than one occasion and NJPW has a national show. Negating this would be rather dubious. --Voievod 21:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds nice and all, but how about you site your source. SilentRage 14:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Ditto on the citation please (even though I think you're right on this). I'd have to argue on the RAW Championship not being a World Title since it carries the lineage of both the WCW and WWF championships that were previously declared World Titles. As for the revived ECW Championship, by that explanation it shouldn't currently be considered a World Title since RVD/Show haven't defended the belt overseas while Rhino sits with the original belt in a red bag on TNA television. Either way, with AWA having supposedly lost its status, that means the NWA belt is the sole remaining world title? I find that hard to believe, though incredible news for TNA. Clint 06:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, again from the August 2006 issue, they state bothe WWE Titles are World Titles and tat they are currently calling them (for clarity) the WWE Raw World Title and WWE Smackdown World Title while pointing out their liniage. --Talison 20:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Further reading on my part through my old PWI issues and I found this. In the PWI 20th Anniversary Special (Winter 1999) there were the results of a readers poll. Question 44 was "Who was the greatest wrestler never to hold a World Title?" The Reader's Pick was Rick Rude. The magazine then states that they think Rude would disagree with this since he held the World Class Title and the WCW international Title, but since PWI didn't recognize either of them as World Titles they maintained his eligibilty for the question and said that there was no shame in him being "The Best of the Rest."--Talison 21:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Now, I don't know if my opinion counts, but I just wanted to say that, personally, I think the whole PWI thing just needs to be dropped. Let's add all of the ECW champions (at least, all of the Extreme champions, not Eastern since I agree that it was purely regional at that point) and other titles that are called World Heavyweight (if they have been defended outside the US at least). I think this will help this page and make it look so much better. Most people won't care anything about the PWI deal and may even be confused. Eric42 15:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Basically a decision has to be made as to wether to use PWI as a standard or not. Many use PWI since it is a stndard and then not every Indie promotion can claim they have a World Title. It's a valid arguement. Others might simply not care what PWI thinks. Also a valid arguement. But this article at current does not reflect PWI's Title recognitions while claiming to. It more reflects major companies that have claimed World Title Status for themselves. --Talison 22:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The very reason why I think it should just be dropped and all World Heavyweight Titles should be added. From reading other comments here, I got the idea that there's more info than PWI has ever mentioned anyway. Eric42 22:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The only problem I have with all of this, is that if we drop the PWI recognision, then anybody can add any world title from any company. The list would be huge. But I have a compromise, what if we list only the titles that PWI lists, but we don't go by when they consider them champions? So ECW would be a World Title, but all ECW champions would be world champions. ^---SilentRAGE! 16:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Adding in any title that claims world title status would not be a good idea, there are dozens of indy feds that call their main title a world title. PWI is accepted as the leading authority by both fans and those in the wrestling industry itself, that is why we use them. Also, PWI has since said that WWWF Champions from 1971-1983 have been given World title status, but only wrestlers who won the ECW Title after August 1999(including Taz) are considered World Title reigns. TJ Spyke 00:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

However, PWI should not be the single difinitive source of information. They were wrong their latest Almanac (2006 edition) in which they say Hulk Hogan was the first IWGP Title champion, when instead, he was just the winner of the first IWGP tournament, before there was a title. Eric42 01:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider this a mistake. They also list the other tournament winners from before it was a standard Championship Title. Some people consider this part of the history of the title (the title having existed in two different forms) and some don't. PWI abviosly does. --Talison 18:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have the issue in front of me, but PWI listed all the titles they consider to have World Title status and ROH wasn't there. I haven't read it in a few months though, so they may have changed that. I think part of the reason is that it's hard to justify giving world title status to a promotion that doesn't even have a TV deal. TJ Spyke 19:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

NOAH's GHC and 1PW Titles?

If I'm not mistaken, they both were successfully defended overseas recently and no one has added them to the World Title page. But you have the WWA up there??—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.32.158 (talk • contribs)

WWA was in many countries(including the United States, Australia, United Kingdom, and New Zealand) and was also on PPV. I don't think PWI ever declared the ROH Championship a world title either, but i'm not a regular reader of PWI so I don't know for sure. TJ Spyke 19:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Did WWA had a TV deal? If not, it probably should not be considered a World Title. The same would go for ROH. For consistency and to narrow down the article, the only championships that should be considered world titles should be the ones that were sucessfully defended overseas and regularly on TV.Secretaria 20:00 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if WWA had a TV deal or not, but they did do PPV's in several countries and were available to everybody (unlike ROH, which requires you to buy DVDs to watch them). I don't think PWI ever callde ROH's title a world title either. TJ Spyke 19:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It's been said a dozen times in this disscussion page that the ROH title isn't considered a world title by PWI. We have to start considering deleting it from this page or else we'll have to add the GHC and 1PW titles for consistency. Secretaria 03:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

AJPW World Title Status

I don't think the AJPW Championship was ever defended outside Japan, so I don't think it should have world title status. Secretaria 12:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You're correct in that the Triple Crown was never defended outside Japan but the three titles that compose it were which I'd assume was used as the basis for it's world title status. --Kiltman67 16:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

But since the three titles you talk about aren't world titles should we mantain its status? Secretaria 19:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Obviously PWI recognise it as a world title which seemingly should be enough to keep it in the article, I was merely suggesting how it qualified in their eyes. --Kiltman67 17:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

So you can confirm the title is recognized by PWI? There seems to be some doubts about that fact in this disscussion page. I've never read it, but that's true then problem solved. Secretaria 18:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

New Column

How about a column for the number of types of titles. Like, Ric Flair would get 4. I want to add this in, but I want some consensus from you guys first. ^---SilentRAGE! 15:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the board is too big as it is and, right now, is not that hard to see that flair, for example, has 4 different world title reigns. Secretaria 19:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

ROH and WCW International Titles

I may sound repetitive, but I don't think we have a final answer on the status of these titles. I've personally never read pwi magazine, but it has been claimed by this discussion page that neither of this titles are, as of now, recognized as world titles. Is this right and can someone confirm this? If they're not, should we delete them or add the much discussed GHC and PW1 titles who have a similar status as the ROH championship? Also, since wwe now owns wcw and doesn't consider the wcw international title to be a world title, maybe we should delete it. Tell me what you think? Secretaria Edited: 18:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if anything will happen, but I e-mailed PWI asking them if they ever declared them world titles, and asking them to state in their magazine or website all the titles they consider to have world title status. TJ Spyke 18:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I finally found proof that wwe recognizes the wcw international championship as a world title. It seems they just don't recognize Flair as one of the champions. His first reign is disputed (see the topic below) and his second reign only lasted a second. Here it is:

• http://www.wwe.com/superstars/dgenerationx/dxmembers/rickrude/profile/

Secretaria 07:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

WWE ignores 6 of Flair's title reigns. They also ignore Bob Backlund losing the WWF Championship to Antonio Inoki. TJ Spyke 07:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I know, I just thought that the reason they didn't recognized his wcw international reigns as world championships was because wwe didn't considered the championship to be a world title. Secretaria 11:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

WCW International Championship reigns

I know this isn't the right place to discuss this, but I figured I would get a faster answer on this discussion page. The list of WCW International World Heavyweight champions page says that wcw left the nwa on the same day rick rude beat flair for the nwa champioship. From what I understand this means that rude was the first wcw international world champion, meaning that flair was not the first champion. Can someone reply and answer this? Should Flair be a two time or one time wcw international champion? I have some sources to back me up:

• http://www.cpol.net/tonyd/ricflair.htm
• http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7411/Flair_titles.html
• http://www.popstarsplus.com/wrestling_men_ricflair.htm
• http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0282310/bio

Also should Rude's third reign be recognised?

• http://www.wrestling-titles.com/wcw/wcw-in-h.html (note that Flair is recognised as champion in this page but my doubt remains).

You can reply on the wcw international championship discussion page. Secretaria 07:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sabu

Shouldnt Sabu be on here? Won the ECW title twice and the NWA title once? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.187.147.147 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

He is, he is a 1 time world champion since his ECW title reigns were before it got world title status. TJ Spyke 00:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I did my research via numerous forums and was told that it due to him winning it and it being a world title its two world title reigns so I changed it feel free 2 change it back thought User:pastie252

Whoever told you that is wrong (finding "info" on forums is usually not a good idea). PWI does not consider ECW title reigns prior to August 1999 as world title reigns. Sabu won the ECW title before it was considered a world title. TJ Spyke 06:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

Page has serious inconsistencies. I don't read PWI, so for these world title reigns, I go here, but even here it seems twisted. It says in the description that the current incarnations of ECW and AWA world titles are not considered world titles by PWI, yet they're on the table of active titles with world status list. I of course don't follow the magazine to know what's recognized and what is not, there's got to be some information out there to clear this up. TonyFreakinAlmeida 04:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Setting the record

OK. Here's what we have so far in this debate.

• Any promotion can easily claim that their top title is a World Title. To avoid the excessive inclusion of vanity titles, we have to have a certain definition of what is a true World title. Being the best known independent magazine that respects kayfabe, the recognition of Pro Wrestling Illustrated was chosen (the reasons why more general dirtsheet mags like Wrestling Observer are not used is unknown at this time, and may be a source for debate). However, we have seemed to deviate somewhat by including non-American promotions (It's really apparent that PWI focuses on American wrestling) such as the titles of top-tier promotions of Japan and Mexico, as well as including those from leading independent circuit promotions. Some have advocated that we should strictly go by PWI guidelines (which would effectively put six or seven titles in this list), while others say that we should really go by this latter method as it is more true to what is considered the leading promotions, supporting the view that the top titles of leading promotions should appropriately get World Title status. Others say that international defense should be the only requirement to World Title status.
  • Proponents of the "pure PWI" approach claim that it is the only way in which such a list is verifiable, as it is solely based on a secondary source. However, it lacks comprehensiveness.
  • Proponents of the "leading promotions" approach claim that it is a product of the consensus process. However, it lacks verifiability, as no other authority at the present time can conclusively show that these promotions are in fact leading promotions.
  • Proponents of the "international defense" approach claim that only through this means does the "world" part have any true meaning. However, this leads to smaller promotions claiming World Title status, not all of which can be independently verified.
• Any promotion with a World Title and a top tag team title has the tag team title also granted World Title status. There have been no promotions under the above criteria which places more value on their top tag team titles than their top heavyweight titles, so we assume that this is a necessary and sufficient condition.
• As for the reigns considered to be World Title status, those of the "strictly PWI" camp prefer "strictly PWI" recognition of reigns - that is, it's only considered a World Title reign if they won the title during the period in which PWI recognizes the title as a World Title, in accordance to PWI's own title histories. Others prefer official title recognition based on reigns recognized by their home promotions, regardless of whether PWI considered the title a World Title or not, just so long as it has been recognized as such in the past.
  • Proponents for PWI histories use it for consistency with how PWI computes title reigns. Critics say that it is not independently verifiable, especially when PWI title history and promotion title history conflict.
  • Proponents for official title histories prefer a more historical approach - how a title can gain world title status, and properly honoring all champions past and present that make it happen. However, critics can claim "revisionist history" in official title histories, which boils down to a verifiability debate (which is more verifiable - kayfabe or an "what really happened from a kayfabe perspective" - where neither the promotion nor the independent authority can truly be accurate).
• The general consensus is that the top titles of WWE (all three brands), WCW, TNA (ie. the NWA championship), and AWA will be included regardless of whatever consensus is come up. As a bit of semantic difference, PWI uses Raw and SmackDown! world titles purely to disambiguate between the WWE Championship and the World Heavyweight Championship (and their respective tag title counterparts). The fact that two titles have changed shows does not weaken the claim of Batista and John Cena to their World Titles, who held the titles in the interim that both were on Raw, nor does it strengthen the claim of Orlando Jordan, who held the WWE United States Championship (what was effectively the top remaining belt on SmackDown!) at the time. This also does not imply that Batista and Cena held two separate reigns during which the belts changed shows - one for their tenure on Raw and one for their tenure on SmackDown!.

Points up for discussion folks. A cleanup is inevitable. kelvSYC 07:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I am in favor of the PWI recognition. But simply put we need to choose something. If the article is to be left in it's current form than saying that we are using PWI's recognition is false. The article contradicts itself right now and that's not good from any point of view. --Talison 22:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well for one thing, I believe this page should only be for PWI-Recognized world titles, and as some have brought up on this page, a couple of these titles aren't PWI-recognized world titles, and IMO, the page has to also be renamed, and also since you can't really publish total opinion on this web site without people bringing the rules into play, it should remain a page that's official to one source, I'm a big fan of the international defense claim, so that would mean even if titles that have claimed such status may not even have PWI's oh so "prestigious" status, because to me from a lot of what I've read, PWI isn't really the "unbiased" judge that many claim them to be, I have my own definition for world titles in the professional wrestling industry that I may post on my user page, but seriously this page needs some work done to make it a little more legitimate as it is very contradictory. TonyFreakinAlmeida 06:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

PWI is considered the most trustworthy, and are a reliable source. I also don't think that just being defended internationally makes a title a world title. I live about 2 hours from the Canadian border, so would any of the local feds get world title status from crossing the border and defending their main belt? I will check PWI, maybe e-mail them, and see for sure what they consider world titles. Then I will maybe bring this up at WP:PW. TJ Spyke 06:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean but that's not where I'm getting it, just a simple crossing from US to Canada or vice versa for a title defense I wouldn't consider a world title, more a North American or Continental title, because you're basically just going from one part of the continent to another. ROH however has had their title defended across both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, in a way they've hit 3 major points of the globe with the title, and also defended in Canada, Austria, Switzerland and Mexico during Aries' reign, and they are on the Fight Network in Europe so some friends have told me. PWI is basically all about the promotions who have the TV deals either nationally(several in Japan) or Globally/Internationally(WWE/TNA off the top of my head), and many of those are the ones who have world status, and that is where I'm getting at with the claim that PWI being the most trustworthy, PWI's status isn't really the most important thing to professional wrestling promotions these days, because now it really doesn't matter if the promotion can just claim these status themselves and not have to worry about what someone else thinks, but there are promotions who have genuinely made the effort of having their titles "defended" around the world, and that's where I think some are getting dissed. TonyFreakinAlmeida 03:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

"PWI is considered a legitimate, unbiased, and independent authority on who really has a World Title and who does not."

PWI was never unbiased. They rigged their voting for their awards every year to allow for people they were on good terms with to get the majority of the awards. Even their voting was kayfabe. They made up their own articles and interviews a lot of the time. When Vince McMahon started not allowing them access to their shows in the mid 80's, suddenly their big awards almost always went to NWA guys because they made up the voting. PWI was covered with bias. PWI is an artifact in wrestling these days. It started dying with the birth of the internet and the rise of the sheets and it's not coming back. If in 1985 you had said we should use this as the bible, I would agree. However in 2007 it's just not valid.

The GHC title deserves recognition. It's the title of the largest company in Japan this decade, it has been defended outside of Japan and draws the largest crowds of any company in Japan. It also has the most visibility of any title in Japan across the world. It's far more of a "World title" today than the Triple Crown or the IWGP title ever were in their entire existance.

Also, I disagree with ECW getting recognition only as of August 99. ECW had exposure on regional cable as early as 1994 in the US reaching most of the country by 1996. The title was defended in Japan as early as 1996 and it's "world title" status started from the lineage of the NWA title 5 years to the day that PWI gives it credit for being a World title. If status isn't given back to 1994 when it was established or 1996 when it was an international title, it should at least start in 1997 when it went nationwide on PPV. I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with PWI being the bible as it pertains to this discussion. Kayfabe died years ago as did that magazine's rep of being the #1 source for wrestling. WarEagleRK 03:02, 04 April 2007 (UTC)

Your claims about PWI are BS and unsourced. The GHC title is not even close to being a world title since it is rarely ever defended outside of Tokyo and not even close to the legitimacy of the IWGP or Triple Crown titles. The ECW Title was not a world title until August 1999. We use PWI because they are respected and independant. We will not drop them, since then everything would be OR. We can't include every title that just because a promotion calls it a world title (half of the indy belts call themselves world titles), and just being defended outside of the country isn't good enough either for reasons already discussed. PWI is what we use, and we will not drop them just because you don't like them (and because the entire article and others would be in danger of being deleted as OR). TJ Spyke 20:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I actually like PWI and got it for years, so please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I didn't like them, I just questioned their bias. I grew up on PWI and enjoyed it while growing up, but I disagree on it being an unbiased source.

The GHC title doesn't have the legitimacy of the Triple Crown or the IWGP (which aren't world titles according to PWI)? I'll say it doesn't have the legacy, but it has the legitimacy. It's the top title in the #1 promotion in Japan. NOAH has been the # 1 promotion in Japan since early on in it's history, their shows attendance will show that. If it's not a World title, then neither are the Triple Crown or the IWGP title. The Triple Crown is almost never defended outside of Tokyo and never outside of Japan. The IWGP title is virtually the same. So using your argument against the GHC title not being a World title, the same can be said about the other Japaneese titles.

My opinion on PWI is unsourced, but not BS. Listen to any interview when the topic comes up, or even Apter himself. You are putting your faith in a magazine that not only made up articles and interviews, but also made up fictional writers who didn't exist to "write" the articles. Even the wikipedia article on PWI mentions that much of their quotes were just made up on the spot. During the 1980's after Vince stopped allowing Apter to go into MSG and take pictures and do interviews, PWI's tone to the WWE was changed a little bit. Their awards have always been gimmicked. You can't say on a fan based vote that from 84-86 Hulk Hogan wouldn't have won the wrestler of the year award. While Flair was worlds better than him all around, Hogan was in the mainstream and far more people knew who he was than Ric Flair. Just the sheer volume of casual fans buying magazines at that time would have lead to him getting the vote.

As far as the ECW thing, that was just me stating my opinion as to when it should be recognized. I won't argue this further as it's obvious that you are bound to your dedication to PWI.

However, it seems on this page we use PWI as the source when needed and then sometimes they aren't used and just opinions are used. The ROH title would an example. While I think it's a valid world title, it's not recognized by PWI, but this page recognizes it. I'm the worlds biggest ROH fan, but if you are being consistant then either you stick just to PWI or you allow other interpretations of what is a world title in the argument. You can't take bits and pieces of both and not come across as unbiased. It's not that I don't like PWI, I just don't like how the random selection as to what is a world title is done on this page, then it's back up by PWI being unbiased and then some titles never recognized by PWI as a world title are thrown out there as world titles. It's not consistant. There has to be better criteria and I don't think PWI is the best option, but if it's the one that is going to be used, then it should be used consistantly and it's not. I was just trying to get my opinions on the record.WarEagleRK 04:06, 07 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about ROH, I haven't actually read PWI in a long time (or any wrestling magazine really) so I don't know about them. If you can provide a source that they don't consider the ROH title a world title, I would be more than happy to remove it from this page. IF we didn't use PWI, what would we use? We can't just come up with our own criteria, as that would be OR and lead to the article getting deleted.

As for the Japanese titles. The GHC title is growing in popularity, and may be a world title within the next couple of years. TJ Spyke 21:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I've seen PWI on the newsstands and they only list the 2 WWE titles and the NWA title as world titles. Neither the ROH title or any of the titles from Japan are considered world titles. If you go to PWI's webpage and look at history, they don't use the word "world" in any of their historical updates on these titles. However if any title in wrestling today is considered a legit world title it would be the ROH title. I really disagree with PWI on this, as the ROH title is as close to a true "world title" as wrestling has today. So I wouldn't want it to be removed personally, but I also think if you are going to use PWI as a source then you have to only use the ones PWI recognizes. Which I believe currently are the WWE Raw, WWE Smackdown, NWA and historically WCW & AWA. I don't recall them ever recognizing the WWA, the WCW International title, etc. Also I don't recall PWI recognizing Hogan's two AWA title wins that were taken away as official AWA title reigns.WarEagleRK 12:14, 08 April 2007 (UTC)

I just checked PWI's history page and did searches for the title names and such, they do refer to each title as world if they consider it to be such, those that have it currently are WWE Raw, WWE SmackDown, and NWA. Searching IWGP brought nothing up, as did AJPW, searching ROH world brought up nothing, references on the page only list it as ROH Championship, ROH Champion, or ROH title. Searching AWA world brought up nothing, it's listed as either AWA title or AWA heavyweight title or championship or champion, same as ECW title, world is not used to refer to it. So IWGP, AJPW, ROH, AWA and ECW have to be unbolded and recent title reigns that aren't world title reigns as according to PWI have to go in order for this page to remain consistent, unless we want to start a whole original research debate as to what is a world title(jeez the World Heavyweight Championship(WWE)debates come to mind), changes have to be made. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Raven

Why aren't Raven's 2 ECW World Titles recognised and only his NWA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.104.109 (talk • contribs)

Do people not bother to check the notes section first? ECW title reigns before August 1999 are not considered world title reigns. TJ Spyke 23:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to be uncivil, but I seriously don't get how so many people miss this in the article. Jeff Silvers 18:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Chris Jericho?

Listed as 3-time world champ including the WWE title (undisputed reign) and 2 WCW reigns? I'm not an expert but I think that's completely fabricated as far as WCW goes. STFmaryville 01:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? He won the WCW Title on October 26, 2001. Then he won again on December 6, 2001. That same night, he defeated Steve Austin to win the WWE Title (and unify the two titles). That means he is a 3 time world champion. TJ Spyke 01:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I had forgotten the WCW title being defended in the WWF that year. It is ridiculously confusing trying to remember the difference between the WCW belt in WWF and the newer WWE World belt. STFmaryville 23:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Just remember that the current World Heavyweight Championship (on SD) technically has nothing to do with the WCW Title other than having similiar designs, they don't share the same title history. TJ Spyke 23:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Kurt Angle's reigns

As it stands right now, he is still a 6-time world champion by PWI's standards. TNA's title has not even been made public yet, nor has PWI recognized that TNA has a world title. Once again this page is not remaining consistent with PWI's standards with the people continuing to edit in reigns that aren't even officially recognized by PWI as world title reigns. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

TNA World Heavyweight Championship

Just a bit of a warning; until PWI says that the TNA Title is an actual WH Title, we cannot add it here. ^---SilentRAGE! 05:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If the PWI is from keyfabe, surely Kurt's NWA title reign counts? I mean, he won the belt at Sacrifice, but from a keyfabe perspective, no one would've known that Cage was stripped of the title before the match.Rhys 49 19:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Kurt never won the NWA Title. The NWA took the belts back before the PPV, and even TNA has Cage listed as the firs TNA Champion. TJ Spyke 21:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Where do they list Cage as the first TNA Champion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs)

They seemed to have removed it now, but they had Cage listed as the first TNA Champion. TJ Spyke 23:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

what does pwi say about angles nwa title win?--Tboneangle123 07:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Query

Do people who held the NWA World Title between September 1993 and May 2002 count as having been world champions? At the time, nobody, including PWI(and who made them the last word anyway?) regraded the belt as a "world" title. I have old PWI's, Inside Wrestlings etc, and the belt was referred to as simply the "NWA Heavyweight Title", if it was even acknowledged at all. Obviously during the NWA-TNA era the belt regained its "World" title status, but after Flair was stripped of the "Big Gold Belt", and before Shamrock won the tournament, the NWA belt should NOT be regarded as a "World" Title, and anyone who held the belt during this period was NOT a World Champion.

Also, who says the ROH belt is a "world" belt? PWI don't recognise it is such, just as the "ROH Title".....

When PWI restored world title status to the NWA Title, they also gave world title status to all those who had held it. They also gave world title status back to those who had the WWWF Title from 1972-1983 (when the title had been downgraded to regional status after the WWWF rejoined the NWA). Some people here call the ROH Title a world title. I suppose now that ROH are doing PPVs (they just taped their first one lat week and it will aire on July 1, they will tape another one next week), PWI may give it world title status. TJ Spyke 00:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

If they did that for NWA and WWF, why didn't they do it for ECW? ^---SilentRAGE! 06:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Because both the NWA and WWF Titles had world title status before losing it (PWI just restored it). The ECW Title didn't get world title status at all until August 1999. You will have to ask PWI why exactly. TJ Spyke 06:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to know why the titles that obviously do not currently have world title status continue to be recognized as such. It's so clear on PWI's history page which titles they recognize as world titles. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I will take care of it tomorrow, there will probably be backlash from some people. If that happens, I will bring it up at WP:PW. TJ Spyke 01:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

From PWI's website:"Steve Corino drops the AWA heavyweight championship to Shinjiro Otani at a Zero-One Max show at the Korakuen Hall in Tokyo, Japan." This means that pwi doesn't recognize post-91 awa reigns as reigns with world status. I'm gonna change the page.Secretaria 18:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Chris Benoit as WCW World Champion?

Chris Benoit should not be recognized as a former WCW Champion. Benoit's victory was what we call a Dusty Finish, ie Benoit's win was always going to be overturned, declared null and void, cease to be etc. Of course Benoit was so pissed off he jumped to the WWF who briefly recognized Benoit as a "former WCW Champion", until they realized how stupid that made them look. The old wcw.com website DIDN'T count list Benoit on their "World Title History" page, because his title victory was overturned!!! Only in 2003 when benoit got the Jesus Push en route to his WM World Title victory did WWE start up the lame "former WCW World Champion" nonsense again, apparently to show the "is for real". Hoever, if we count benoit as a former WCW World Champion, then Goldberg is a 2-time WCW Champion(see Halloween Havoc 1999), Sid Vicious is a 2-time WCW Champion(he may already be listed as such here?), Chuck Palumbo is a former WCW Champion(with regards to an incident in mid-2000), and who knows how many times the Steiner Brothers "won" the WCw Tag Titles from the Outsiders in 1997! Also, quite apart from the Midnight Rider incident, Dusty Rhodes is a 4-time NWA Champion(Starrcade 1985), RVD also "won" the WWE belt from the Undertaker in 2002, so he's a 2-time WWE Champion, and the list goes on an on. In short, Benoit's WCW World Title win was declared null and void, and thus he never officially held the belt. EVER. If we count Benoit as a former WCW champion, then should we start recognising all Dusty Finishes as title changes, and counting those as official title reigns? And don't say he "voluntarily vacated the belt after winning it". He was stripped of the belt, then asked for his release, which he got, and jumped to WWF/WWE. Since WCW were controlling their own title lineages, and they never ecognized Benoit as officially ever having held the World Championship, he should not be recognized as such by wikipedia. Unless you count ALL Dusty Finishes as official. So either Benoit isn't a WCW Champion, or Chuck Palumbo is also a former WCW World Champion. Take your pick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.202.22 (talk • contribs) 08:30, May 26, 2007

WWE has the final say in this subject since they bought WCW. If they officially recognize Benoit as a former wcw champ , then he IS a a former wcw champ. The same does not occur with the other wrestlers you mentioned. Terry Funk also had an unrecognized us title reign in wcw until wwe bought the promotion. On the other hand one of Flair's WCW championship reigns isn't recognized by the wwe so wikipedia isn't exactly being consistent, is it? Maybe we should ask what others think? Secretaria May 26, 2007 18:20 (UTC)

WCW did count Benoit's win, they just stripped him of the title afterwards. Goldberg is NOT a 2 time champion, Sting complained that he didn't think it was a title match, JJ Dillion (head of the "WCW CHampionship Committee") agreed that the title didn't change hands and then stripped Sting of the title (for attacking the referee after the match), nor do any of those other counts since no one reckonizes them. WCW considere the Benoit title win legit, WWE considers it legit, PWI considers it legit, wrestling-titles.com (which conside) considers it legit. Bottom line, Benoit is a former WCW World Heavyweight Champion. TJ Spyke 21:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually to clarify....after Bret Hart was forced to vacate the world title(and retire) due to a concussion, the planned Hart vs Sid Vicious title match was changed less than 48 hours before the match to Sid vs Benoit. Since there was no time to build up the match it was decided to do a screwjob finish, and then build to the rematch at Superbrawl the next month. So benoit "won" the match(with Sid's leg clearly on the ropes), and then the next night on Nitro the decision was overturned. The official result of the Sould Out 2000 Main Event was "Chris Benoit and Sid Vicious fought to a no-contest". End of story. Except not. Pissed off at the shitty booking, Benoit confronted booker Kevin Sullivan(who benoit had a personal history with re: Nancy). Sullivan then told Benoit if he didn't like the booking he could ask for his contract release no questions asked. benoit took him up on it and jumped to the WWF. The difference between this and the millions of other screwjob/Dusty finishes was that rather than the belt seemingly moving from one champion to the next, then being handed back....the bgelt was vacant before Benoit "won" the title, thus the overturning of the decision made the belt vacant once more. Sid also had a seeming title victory only for the result to be overturned due to his "pinning the wrong Harris". Officially at the time the belt went from Hart to a vacant state to Kevin Nash awarding the belt to himself........

Okay, so Vinnie Mac has bought at WCW and recognised both Benoit's and Sid's first wins as World Title Wins. He has also recognised Hulk Hogan's two AWA Dusty Finishes as official World Title Wins. I don't like it, but I guess it's official now. The obvious question is, since Vince owns WWE, WCW, ECW and AWA can he, say overturn David Arquette's WCW World Title win at this point? That's just stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.202.22 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 1 June 2007

The Sandman

The Sandman won the ECW Championship FIVE times, not one as the article shows! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.202.22 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 1 June 2007

Only ECW Title reigns from August 1999 and after are considered world title reigns, and The Sandman only won thr title once after it got world title status. TJ Spyke 22:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

WWA World Title

Where did it go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.202.22 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 1 June 2007

The title didn't have world status from PWI, so it was removed from the page. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

New criteria for wikipedia's world status?

From PWI's wrestling history section:"Jeff Jarrett beats Sting to unify the NWA and WWA heavyweight championships in Auckland, New Zealand. (2003)" Neither championship is called a world championship altought in the same section they later grant world status to the nwa championship. However, they don't do the same for the wwa championship. Perhaps it's time to change wikipedia's criteria for the world championships, afterall they only recognize 1999 to 2001 ecw champions as world champions despite the promotion's popularity. Secretaria 13:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't have criteria, we use PWI's criteria. I've never been comfortable with the WWA Title being considered a world title, so I wouldn't feel bad removing it. The NWA Title was given back world title status (and all previous champions given world title status), so everybody who has held the NWA Title is considered a world champion. TJ Spyke 22:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

You havent't said nothing new to me. I don't think anybody cares about the wwa championship. Personally, a championship that lasted roughly two years and never appeared on tv should not be among wrestling's top championships. I think this is the final disscussion about this particular title. I'm taking it out.Secretaria 23:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

What about the ROH, AJPW Triple Crown, IWGP and ECW titles? They aren't world titles to PWI at the moment either. They only recognize WWE, World Heavyweight(WWE) and NWA(which will inevitably lose status soon). Also, was the WCW International title recognized? I've read from some that it wasn't. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's just a matter of time before ROH and ECW are recognized again since the championships are being/will be defended on TV so we might as well keep them. I don't know about the japanese and wcw international titles though. That's why I think this page's criteria needs to change. Secretaria 20:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah from looking at the history page they don't have the world status on the Japanese titles, heck, has PWI ever recognized a world title from a promotion outside of the United States? TonyFreakinAlmeida 00:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at an old issue of PWI (December 1997 issue), and it had AJPW and NJPW's titles just listed as "IWGP Championship" and "Triple Crown Championship" while it had the WWF and WCW's titles both listed as "World Championship". TJ Spyke 01:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Can someone check recent issues to confirm this, please? And TJ Spyke, does that issue or other one you have say anything about the wcw international championship? What does anybody think abou changing pwi's world status criteria to another one. It's kinda ridiculous seeing Scott Steiner on TNA.com claiming he was a a world tag team champion in Japan or that Team 3D are 20-times world tag team champions or ECW's Joey Styles calling Sabu a former world champion. I'm talking about the two most important and well known wrestling promotions of today. Secretaria 16:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope, no mention of the WCW International title. I don't have any issues from when the WCW International title existed, and they don't mention the title at all in the issues I have. Sabu is technially a former world champion, he won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Remember that a lot of organizations call their titles world titles (including indy feds who never hold shows outside of their city area). TJ Spyke 21:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a question, why do you keep bringing up stuff like indy feds who claim world status when no one seems to be arguing any, for example, I don't see anyone trying to argue that Jersey All Pro Wrestling has a world title(just an example of what I don't see). Pro Wrestling Illustrated's world titles are so clear, WWE, WHC(WWE), NWA, with WCW, AWA and ECW reigns from August 1999 to 2001 as the inactive world titles. Also to Secretaria, not everyone goes by PWI's standards because there are many people out there who find that historically they've shown total bias. To some, the ECW tag titles and heavyweight title had right to claim their own world status, but there's no say that PWI is the official judge of anything.TonyFreakinAlmeida 00:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

They are no more bias than other sources (like Melter, whose history shows an anti-WWE bias). TJ Spyke 00:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Meltzer's good for news though IMO, most credible sheet out there from when I've followed. That's all I say about that. TonyFreakinAlmeida 02:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying he isn't good for news (although he doesn't always mark his rumors as rumors, and lets people think they are true). I just don't trust his personal opinions. TJ Spyke 02:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

So, if there is no source we can trust, where does it leave us? If we can't trust any source, maybe we should have our own criteria. Maybe it's the most unbiased of them all. We'll just have to warn viewers at the top of the page that there isn't an unbiased source that classifies the real world titles. Then we would list the titles of the major promotions past and present such as AWA, AJPW, ECW, IWGP, NWA, NOAH, ROH, TNA, WWE. What do you think? Are we right to do this? Cause pwi's view on subject is IMO inaccurate, biased (specially against the japanese titles if indeed they don't recognize them as world titles) and often contradicts wrestling's most powerful promotions. Secretaria 07:45, 01 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but this article is supposed to be solely for PWI world title recognition. AJPW and IWGP don't have world status. It's already been said, WWE, WHC(WWE) and NWA are the titles currently recognized with world status at the moment with inactive world titles being, WCW, AWA(pre-AWA Superstars) and the ECW title reigns from August 99 til the promotion's demise recognized as World title reigns. PWI has only recognized 3 world titles at any given time historically and this page is not reflecting that, but it needs to. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"...this article is supposed to be solely for PWI world title recognition"

No it's not. If you wanna make it so then create a page called "Number of World Heavyweight title reigns in professional wrestling per PWI" or something along those lines. This page is supposed to be, as its name declares, a complete listing of the world title reigns in professional wrestling. It's now clear that this page's name and its purpose must change. Either we change it to "Number of World Heavyweight title reigns in professional wrestling per PWI", listing the reigns that pwi considers to be world title reigns, thus diminuishing its importance and relevance, or we change this page to "Number of World Heavyweight title reigns in professional wrestling's major promotions" or some better name, listing the champions of the big ones, so to speak. Secretaria 17:15, 01 June 2007 (UTC)

No thanks on making a page for PWI world titles, if you haven't noticed, I hate PWI. Personally I feel that anyone who uses PWI to to think of what is and what is not a world title, is an idiot. I'm going by this quote at the top of the page. This list includes all title reigns for titles given "World Title Status" by Pro Wrestling Illustrated (PWI). Many promotions claim to have a World Title but PWI is considered a legitimate, unbiased, and independent authority on who really has a World Title and who does not. Then it goes on to say who "claims" world status. Well if this page is to be for promotions who have claimed world status then I guess we're just going to have to put WWA back right? For it was taken away all because PWI doesn't recognize it. It's been debated for a while about what titles have PWI status, because this page is for PWI's status. TonyFreakinAlmeida 22:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

While I would like for use to come up with our own criteria, we can't. That would basically be the definition of original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. TJ Spyke 22:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

And plus everything on the page points to the fact that this page is merely for PWI's status, with the exception of titles that are on this list that are not even recognized by PWI, which is most likely by mistake or someone added them all because of name. Fact is, if this page wasn't for PWI, then I guess ECW wouldn't be listed from the date that PWI gave it world status, or it wouldn't be noted on the World heavyweight championship page how PWI restored world status to the NWA title in Summer last year. TonyFreakinAlmeida 23:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright, it seems a complete listing of wrestling world title reigns is undoable. But this page needs to be changed radically. The title is misleading and makes people think that this page is much more than a pwi listing. This page is linked to all championship pages like it was that relevant instead of just being a pwi subpage. I mean look a this page's counterpart for the tag teams that I created, every day people keep adding the 8 championships the dudleys won in ecw because they don't understand that this is merely a pwi subpage. This article needs to change now. Secretaria 11:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the page to reflect its true purpose. If you don't agree with my changes just say so. If you do I'll change the tag team page too. Secretaria 13:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah the list of reigns by length also needs work too. Thanks for going through with the changes, all I gotta say is, bout time it was set straight. TonyFreakinAlmeida 05:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

i say we use PWI's, except that if a world title is given status, then ALL previous champions gain status, and that a title CANNOT lose world status once it is given its status, that coulb be wikipedias rules.--Tboneangle123 02:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that would be original research too. If we are using PWI's standards, then we can't alter them the way we want. TJ Spyke 04:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

well i say we mostly use PWis standards, but alter them to recognize earlier title reiggns and unnoficial ones and such.--Tboneangle123 05:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally i don't think defending a title in another country is enough to get world title status, a World Title should be something regarded to be at the top of its particular sport, and have the top talent in that sport competing for that said title, and honestly, putting brand preference and bias aside, we all know that the top of this sport is right now the WWE, whether we like it or not. with TNA having monthly ppv's and a prime time tv show and with the talent additions they have recently done they should also get world status. the old NWA and WCW should also get world status becouse during there respective era's they had top level talent and prime time tv and ppv's as well. as for ROH and the old ECW and all the other indy's, as good as there talent is at wrestling, absolutly no one besides the most dedicated fans even know who the heck those wrestlers are until they show up in the higher companies, example samoa joe, aj styles, christopher daniels, cm punk etc... the average fan only heard about these guys when they started wrestling in TNA and/or the WWE, theres a reason why those guys end up in TNA or WWE and thats because its the best in the world, hence the name WORLD TITLE. just like alot of people don't never heard of Sidney Crosby until he started playing in the NHL, its becouse the NHL is the best,and most watched league. as for the japanese titles i really dont know enough about it to say, but if they need to be a member of the NWA then they must not be big and strong enough to stand on there own. would depend on how there tv ppv numbers are i guess, if they have that. and the level of talent for there magor titles. only people i really know alot about in japan is kobashi and misawa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.210.149 (talk • contribs)

Just thought that I would point out that Sidney Crosby was only in college before playing in the NHL, and that's why most people hadn't heard of him. Lrrr IV 01:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Sidney crosby played for the rimouski oceanic of the quebec magor junior hockey league for 2 years prior to the nhl, not that it makes a difference, you were missing the point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.214.115 (talk • contribs)

I got your point, I was just pointing otu why most people hadn't heard of Crosby (besides the fact that hockey in general is not a very popular sport outside of Canada). Lrrr IV 03:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

accually hockey is one of the 4 magor sports in north america, including the states where 24 of the 30 teams are based and extremely popular in russia, sweden, finland, chech republic, slovakia, switzerland, and other northern nations. NHL is looking at starting a NHL europe within the next 10 years. but if you dont like hockey use whatever sport you want, the average person won't know much if anything about star players until they play in the big leagues of any sport.

Flair's "lost" reigns

Okay, so this is not actually on-topic, but could someone list Flair's "unofficial" title wins, and why they aren't recognised? WWE et al say Flair is a 16-time World Champion. Which title wins aren't viewed as "World" Titles by Vinny Mac et al? Thank you...

Well here are the ones that the WWE and I'm guessing, Flair as well, only recognize. [1] TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like right off the bat, they ignore 2 NWA Title reigns that even the NWA recognizes (NWA's official website considers Flair a 10 time NWA World Heavyweight Champion). Lrrr IV 22:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I know Flair's 9th was only recognized years later after he actually won it. He had been stripped of the title and the reign wasn't recognized until the nwa made a revision on its lineage. WWE however opted not to do that. Secretaria 14:22 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if WWE will ever recognize Antonio Inoki winning the WWF Championship. Lrrr IV 22:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

They did recognize Inoki back when WWF.com had a title history page, but when WWE.com put a title history page up his reign wasn't there.--JB {{flagicon|Canada}} 17:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Earlier comment

Everyone seems to be so preoccupied with whether or not ECW Champions prior to August 1999 were retroactively given World Title status, that another point in Mr Staks' earlier post seems to have gone unnoticed...

"However, we are doing so with NWA champions who held the title during their tenure with TNA, but not before." (emphasis mine).

Thus the NWA Heavyweight Title was only considered a World Title from recognition of Orville Brown as the first NWA World Heavyweight Champion in 1948 to Ric Flair in 1991, and then from Ken Shamrock in 2002 to Christian Cage on May 13, 2007. Presumably the new NWA Champion will NOT be a "World" champion, but we'll have to wait and see about that. However, what is clear is the Messrs Chono, Windham, Candido, Severn, Ogawa, Steele and the rest were never World Champions in the eyes of PWI, and that Ric Flair's final reign as NWA Heavyweight Champion in 1993, was just that..the NWA Heavyweight Championship(NOT World). Thus the article needs some cleaning out of people who were never World Champions in the eyes of PWI.

But what is your source for them not recognizing NWA Title reigns before 1948, or Flair's 1991 reigns being the point when they withdrew recognition? TJ Spyke 01:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

So do they recognize reigns from 91-02 or not? Cus we don't have PWI in Portugal, so I'm blind on the subject and I have deleted nwa reigns from the tag team page. Secretaria 13:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That e-mail is the one I sent to PWI's website and is what Stu said in the reply. However, we can't remove any NWA champions until we know when they stop recognizing it as a world title. TJ Spyke 22:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

But certainly recognizing them as "World" Champions without proof that they are/were World Titlists at that point is equally as wrong? I have the PWI Almanacs from 1996-1998 and in all of those it's just the "NWA Heavyweight Title". Also all the PWI magazines of the time refer to the "NWA Heavyweight Title" and make it abundantly clear that it is NOT a world Title. Not sure how that would do as regards references/sources however. Since it is the PWI List of World Titles though, surely back issues of PWI count as a valid source? Also, holders of the NWA belt before Orville Brown in July 1948 don't count as World Titles, hence Brown is a 1-time World Champion(despite being a 2-time NWA Champion), the National Wrestling ASSOCIATION is an entirely different belt which was never recognized as a World Title, so Lou Thesz is only a 3-time WORLD Champion. Flair's last reign as NWA Champion(1993) would be different from his reigns 1981-1991 as it wasn't a World Title. Corino ewt al should be removed, otherwise all ECW Champions be added. You can't have one rule for ECW and a different one for the NWA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.136.217 (talk • contribs)

Except we know for a fact that only ECW Champions starting with Tazz are world champions. We don't know when the NWA Title lost world title status. Also, what is your source for the NWA Title before 1948 not being considered a world title? TJ Spyke 20:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have the answer. It's in the PWI website: 1948 - Later in the year, Orville Brown is recognized as the first NWA World champion. Also, Masahiro Chono, the first nwa champion after ric flair left for the wwe is the first to be simply called the nwa champion - IWGP champion The Great Muta (Keiji Muto) pins NWA champion Masahiro Chono in a title vs. title match. Secretaria 10:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Care to take a swipe at List of professional wrestling World Title reigns by length? It uses PWI as well, but continues to include the ROH Title, and someone tried to add Angle's TNA win. TJ Spyke 21:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It's done, but I don't know the lenght of Orville Brown's reign. Secretaria 15:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

TNA has World Title Status

From PWI.com's latest article:"...with Joe’s most recent X division title reign, he’s now eligible for the “Match Of Champions” at Victory Road announced by Jim Cornette last night. There, the TNA World champion and X division titleholder will square off against the TNA tag champs with the man gaining the pinfall walking away with the title of the opponent he covered for the victory." In the same article they call the ecw championship the "ECW title" not the ECW World Title so I think this pretty much proves that the TNA Championship has World Title Status. Secretaria 14:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The NWA Title only got world title status back thanks to TNA, so no surprise. Glad to see it official now though. TJ Spyke 23:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

NWA title is losing world status for sure, PWI only recognizes 3 world titles at any given time. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because they traditionally have not recognized more than 3 doesn't mean they wouldn't. The fact that all the wrestlers in the NWA Title tournament (almost all of whom I have not even heard of) are indie wrestlers (the biggest name appears to be only Bryan Danielson. Nothing against Danielson, but he is just a indie wrestler) does seem to support the idea that the NWA Title won't have world title status when the new champ is decided. TJ Spyke 04:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Well if PWI has made a reference to the NWA title in the magazine as of late, being that the tournament is into the second round, then we'll know, but the tradition has always been 3 world titles, heck, they probably have already withdrew the NWA's world status. NWA is an indy in this day and age. It only makes sense for this magazine to recognize those 3 world titles coming from the big two of wrestling promotions in the US today. TonyFreakinAlmeida 14:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Messed up Angles list, please fix before i make it worse, sorry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.9.242 (talk • contribs)

Johnny Nitro

I was about to add him, but I wanted to check here to be sure I wasn't missing something. I thought there may be a reason he's not here already (there probably is). Gavyn Sykes 04:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

PWI doesn't seem to consider the ECW Championship to have world title status. They call the other two WWE Titles world titles (RAW World Championship and SmackDown World Championship) and the NWA Title (although they will probably demote it soon) and now the TNA World Championship, but they just call the ECW Title the "ECW Heavyweight Championship". We have decided to use PWI for this page (since we can't come up with our own guidelines and half of the wrestling feds out there call their main title a world title). TJ Spyke 04:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I see. I notice the ROH Championship also lost it's status. Unfortunate. Gavyn Sykes 18:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it ever considered the ROH Title a world tilte. It's just that a few weeks ago we decided to go through and clean up the page, we had always used PWI for the standard but there were a bunch of titles listed that PWI did not consider world titles (the IWGP Championship, AJPW Championship, AWA Championship, ROH Championship, current ECW Title) and the NWA Title from 1993-2002. TJ Spyke 19:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, ok. I recall reading this article a few weeks back and seeing all of those titles listed. Thanks for clearing that up.Gavyn Sykes 19:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

NWA title probably already lost it's status, they only recognize upto 3 world titles at any given time. Since NWA title is going right back to the indies and TNA title has a TV deals internationally, it already filled it's spot. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Given the current news that the NWA is going back to national television that may not be entirely true. I think the three world titles recognitios is just a coincidence but I could be wrong. It's a new era, it seems. For the first time five world titles will be defended on tv. Secretaria 14:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, even ECW's first PPV was very successful in '97 and that wasn't enough for PWI to grant that belt world status. Remember this is PWI, and going by history of the most popular and biggest promotions in just about every decade, there have always been a maximum 3 that stood out above everyone else. 60s-70's, AWA, WWWF(even as a member of the NWA), NWA. 80s-early 90's, same promotions. 90's. WWF and WCW, with ECW getting on national TV in '99. And now, you have WWE, TNA with 3 PWI-recognized world titles between them, with NWA getting a TV deal(granted, on Dish Network, not everyone can see it), and ROH on PPV, I don't see how PWI will grant more than 3 titles that status given the big two at the moment are accessible through basic cable while the others are not. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Tatsumi Fujinami

I have the PWI Almanac from a few years ago and the Flair/Fujinami title changes from 1991 are NOT recognised by PWI in that one. However I have not edited the article, as anyone who DOES have the LATEST PWI Almanac should look up the NWA Title History to see whether the Flair/Fujinami switches are recognised by PWI. If they're not, then Fujinami should be removed from the article. Whether or not the NWA themselves recognises the change is irrlevant here, this is PWI's List of Wrestling World Heavyweight Title Reigns. If PWI don't count it, it shouldn't be one here. Anyone out there with this year's Almanac?

NWA Title in 1991

As to the "The NWA belt only had World Title status because of TNA" comment. Well, in 1991 the NWA belt only had World Title status because of WCW. When WCW created their own World Title certainly the NWA belt lost it at that same moment? I have PWIs from 1991, but they only acknowledge the one belt, called the NWA/WCW World Title! Does anyone have any sources which state conclusively when the NWA belt LOST World Title status in 1991? I'm sure that Sep 8 is wrong, but haven't edited it, as I have as of yet been unable to find a definitive PWI source.

This is from the PWI website:"March 21 (1991): New Japan and WCW hold a joint show that draws 64,500 fans to the Tokyo Dome. The main event sees IWGP heavyweight champion Tatsumi Fujinami pin NWA World champion Ric Flair in a double title match to “win” the NWA title. In Japan, Fujinami is recognized as the NWA champion, while in the U.S., WCW disputes the finish. In the summer of 1991, the NWA Board “officially” recognizes the match as a title change, and that Flair had regained the title by pinning Fujinami on May 19 in St. Petersburg, Florida.

PWI recognizes the title change. The question is if they recognize Fujinami as a World Champion since the statement isn't clear about the championship status. Can someone prove that the nwa championship lost its world status when it was separated from the wcw championship? If so, Fujinami's and Flair's last reigns are out. Secretaria, 14:45, July 12 2007 (UTC)

The latest PWI Almanac does NOT recognise the Flair/Fujinami title switches. Also the fact that they wrote "win" and "officially" in parenthesis would seem to imply that PWI does not hold this "title switch" as official.....22 July 2007

Does PWI recognize Angle's NWA title win?

I mean since they are a kayfabe magazine, they should know all the details as well as if TNA had until midnight and all that stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.34.19 (talk • contribs)

The only reference I can find is in their weekly wrapup page (where they briefly recap what happened on RAW/SmackDown/ECW/iMPACT), and they refer to it as the TNA Championship (not the NWA). This appears to be the only mention of the incident: "The road to Slammiversary began last night with a ray of Louisville light being shed on the TNA World title situation and the official kick-off of the “King Of The Mountain” qualifiers. After the confusion stemming from the finish of the three-way World title battle at Sacrifice that saw Christian Cage, Kurt Angle, and Sting pretty much lose at some point, Jim Cornette cleared things up as much as made the waters a bit murkier. The TNA World strap is apparently vacant for the time being as a result and will be the top prize at Slammiversary's “King Of The Mountain” match of which Angle will be a participant after defeating Rhino last night. I can safely say right now, with Angle being the only member of the match, he is my rock-solid, stone-cold lock to win the match. Of course, that may change after more people are added." [2] Lrrr IV 00:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

wierd, guess we have to wait for the almanac--71.139.22.117 00:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

From the wording of that, it seems that they recognize whatever title was on the line at Sacrifice as a world title. TonyFreakinAlmeida 16:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

In TNAToday, the final promo said Angle was a 7-time world champion. So we'll have to wait until TNA decides what to do. Secretaria 15:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Why, all of a sudden, has PWI removed World Title status from the All-Japan and New Japan Championships? They are World class organisations! Is it because those companies are not based out of the United States? Do wrestling companies have to be orginally based out of the United States to garner World Title status?

They never did recognize those titles as world titles to begin with. It sucks but its true. But, hey, it's just an opinion from a magazine. Secretaria 15:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sandman

I was under the impression that Sandman won the ECW World Title 5 times, not once. Why isn't he regarded as such by this article?

The title wasn't recognized as being a world title till after he won his first 4 titles.

TNA title

A world title?? Give me a break. Now that TNA has severed ties with NWA, I don't know what argument can be made to consider this title a world title.

They only gave back world status to the nwa title because it was defended in TNA. It was a natural transition, though we still don't know if the nwa title lost its world status. Secretaria 15:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone told me on a message board that in the latest issue of PWI the NWA title is infact listed as still being a world title, it might change though once a champion is crowned. TonyFreakinAlmeida 14:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The TNA Title was recently defended in Japan

NWA Tag Team Title history

I know this is not the right page but this seems to be a really "popular" wrestling talk page.

Since the NWA World Tag Team Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) is the WCW World Tag Team Championship and not the current official NWA World Tag Team Championship should we change "PWI's List of Wrestling World Tag Team Title Reigns" page to reflect this? I don't know PWI's stand on this. Secretaria 19:00, July 24 2007 (UTC).

About that, the Mid-Atlantic tag titles before they became the WCW World Tag titles were not a world tag team championship, it wasn't until the NWA board decided to create their own world tag titles that the NWA had an official World Tag Team title, so from the first WCW reign with Doom and onward, those are World Tag Team title reigns. Anything before that is just a regional tag team title reign in NWA Mid Atlantic. TonyFreakinAlmeida 20:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that according to the history page on here wikipedia, Doom's reign from Mid-Atlantic crossed over into the history of the WCW tag titles, so they weren't separate reigns, I'd have to look this up, as the Mid-Atlantic territory very much had national notoriety and maybe worldwide notoriety in PWI's case with how they view things. TonyFreakinAlmeida 05:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Oddly, PWI in its new almanac, includes the Mid-Atlantic reigns with the current NWA World Tag Team Titles, not WCW's.Bmf 51 17:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I just checked out PWI-online's history page, and they refer to the Mid-Atlantic Tag Team Championships as the NWA World Tag Team titles at least from December of 1976 onward, so it's a safe bet that every NWA World Tag Team title reign from the Mid-Atlantic territory from 1975-1991 to WCW is recognized by PWI as a world tag team title reign. Here's a quote by the way from the piece

December 25(1976): Ric Flair wins his first world title when he teams with Greg Valentine to beat NWA World tag team champions Gene and Ole Anderson in Greensboro, North Carolina. I'm not sure how big the Mid-Atlantic region (aka Crockett's promotions) were in those days but I think it's safe to consider every reign of those titles before they were renamed the WCW World Tag Team titles, as world tag team title reigns on the List of World Tag Team Championship reigns page. TonyFreakinAlmeida 20:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone have a magazine to confirm if the mid-atlantic tag championship is recognized by PWI as part of the nwa tag team lineage or wcw tag team lineage? Secretaria 21:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC).

NWA World Title Status?

In the PWI 2007 Almanac I read that the NWA World Title was re-awarded World Title Status on June 27, 2006. Why, then, is it considered to have World Title Status from the beginning of Ken Shamrock's victory in 2002? Did PWI given them World Title Status retroactively? Bmf 51 17:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

"With ECW, we did not grant any retroactive world title status to champions prior to 1999. However, we are doing so with NWA champions who held the title during their tenure with TNA, but not before." - Stu Saks, PWI. Secretaria 01:21 27 July 2007 (UTC)

What's up with this?

In the 2007 PWI almanac, they include the WWE Title when it was on Smackdown! and the World Heavyweight Title after it moved to Smackdown! as part of the same lineage. They consider the pre-brand extension WWE Title, the World Heavyweight Title when it was on Raw, and the WWE Title since it moved to Raw, in a single lineage as well. I realize they refer to the WWE's two titles as the Raw World and Smackdown World Titles, but is it necessary to split all WWE Title reigns, while it was defended on Smackdown, from the rest of its title history? Bmf 51 17:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

PWI is crazy!-- bulletproof ^3:16 23:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, if you haven't noticed, PWI recognizes the title lineages as separate from show to show, so if you were to look at when Batista and Cena were both on Raw and when the WWE title moved to Raw from SmackDown and WHC from Raw to SmackDown etc you'd see more title reigns, it's how they do things, they don't call the titles by their actual names but create their own terms for them. TonyFreakinAlmeida 05:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

WCW/Pre-Split NWA one in the same, according to WWE?

I was reading through a WWE.com article about Ron Simmons and Teddy Long, and about half way down, it says...

Picture it: Atlanta, 1986. The National Wrestling Alliance (later known as WCW) hires a young man named Theodore R. Long as a referee. That same year, a former college football All-American named Ron Simmons makes his sports-entertainment debut in the NWA.

A bold statement to make, eh? Maybe, in the mind of WWE, its like the Baltimore Ravens/Cleveland Browns situation in the NFL. The original NWA "became" WCW, and a newer version of NWA inherited the old versions history. Or, perhaps they believe WCW rightfully inherited everything.

This gives some insight into why they originally viewed the World Heavyweight Title as formerly being the WCW and NWA Titles (not that they don't still believe that, considering on the page showing the WCW title history it says...

The World Heavyweight Championship that has recently been carried by such greats as Batista and Triple H got its start in WWE back in 2002. But its prestigious lineage can actually be traced back all the way to George Hackenschmidt and 1904. For years, it was known as the NWA Championship; then when WCW pulled out of the NWA in the early 1990s, Ric Flair was recognized as the first-ever WCW Champion. Since that time, top names such as Hulk Hogan, Ron Simmons and Bret Hart carried the championship prior to WCW's demise.

Here are both articles:

http://www.wwe.com/shows/smackdown/articles/4375906/bestman http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/wcwchampionship/

Bmf 51 17:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The Sandman

The Sandman is a 'FIVE-time ECW World Champion. Wikipedia only recognizes him as a 1-time holder of this title. What gives?

Read through the previous questions on this talk page and you will find your answer. That question has been asked multiple times. 63.3.9.129 15:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

World Titles before 1948

What is PWI's take on people like Gotch, Stecher, etc who held recognized "World Titles" before the formation of the NWA? The Almanac recognizes these people as "World Champions", but it's clearly not any of the known World Titles after mid-1948, eg NWA, WWE etc. Should these people be listed? Or aren't these reigns even World Title reigns per se?

Personally, I would recognize several pre-1948 titles including the one's belonging to AWA (Boston), the National Boxing/Wrestling Association, the Midwest Wrestling Association, the New York State Athletic Commission, and Los Angeles Olympic Auditorium, as well as Maryland's version of the World Title. All split from the original World Title, and all were unified into the NWA Title in the late 40s and early 50s. But this is PWI's list, not mine. I'm not sure if they even recognize any championship before 1948 (even though they include the main line of the lineage of the World Championship dating to 1904 with the current NWA's title history). Perhaps they haven't done so for fear of a little research.

My guess would be that they recognize the NWA World Heavyweight Championship as the very first, as it had many others unified with it and PWI most likely has no way of tracking any other "world" titles before this time, it's only upto their own interpretation. TonyFreakinAlmeida 20:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Killer Kowalski

Does PWI recognize Killer Kowalski's NWA reign? According to Kowalski himself, he is a former NWA World Champion(during the early 60's) but the PWI Almanac makes no reference to this?

"(Kowalski) never held the NWA title, but did wrestle as champion on some shows in Texas for promoter Morris Sigel in 1962. Kowalski had defeated the champ, Buddy Rogers, in Montreal when Rogers suffered a broken ankle and couldn't continue after the first fall. Sigel used this match to promote Kowalski as the NWA champion."63.3.9.129 16:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Batista and Cena

According to PWI logic when they switched promotions in 2005, they each got credited with an extra title reign?

It's possible, but seeing as they recognize Flair's NWA/WCW(1st) title reign from 1991 as one reign, they most likely do something similar for Cena and Batista's title reigns in which Cena went from SmackDown to Raw, and Batista from Raw to SmackDown. TonyFreakinAlmeida 20:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Christian Cage

2-time or 3-time World Champion according to PWI?

TNA billed him as a World Champion after NWA had already stripped him of their title. But, TNA does not include his reign (or Kurt Angle's subsequent reign prior to him being stripped of his "title") in their own championship's history. My guess is PWI won't recognize this reign at all, making him a 2-time champion. We'll have to wait and see.63.3.9.129 16:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The WCW World Title

Apparently, Flair was recognised as the first WCW World Champion after he beat Sting in January 1991, but I am sure that during his reign in 1990, Sting was specifially and unambiguously referred to as being "WCW World Champion", and his title as the "WCW World Title". Does anyone have any links or the like which can either confirm or disprove this?

So are you saying that WCW recognized Sting as being WCW World Champ going into the match with Flair, which Flair won, and became first recognized champ? Sorry, your post isn't very clear. TonyFreakinAlmeida 20:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Hogan's AWA reigns

Does PWI recognize his AWA reigns? Cause it seems AWA Superstars has nothing to do with the original AWA. Secretaria 3:55, August 14 2007 (UTC).

They probably do not recognize them as they tend to side with whatever the company put in their title histories, unless it's a case of revisionism. Hogan's AWA reigns should not be recognized on this page, as the AWA did not recognize them, only the false AWA of today does. TonyFreakinAlmeida 04:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Does that mean Bockwinkel is a four time AWA Champion or was he always a six time champ? Secretaria 15:59, August 18 2007 (UTC)

Four times. TonyFreakinAlmeida 23:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Question, who added that PWI recognizes the AWA Superstars of Wrestling revisionism? I'd like to see a source for that. TonyFreakinAlmeida 22:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I edited it out, came from some IP that didn't leave a reason for the edit or a source. TonyFreakinAlmeida 22:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sandman

I seem to remember The Sandman holding the ECW World Title more than once, yet he's only listed as a 1-time ECW World Champion?

There are already four "sandman" sections asking that question. read them.

Big Show's/Giant's title reigns

I understand that Big Show's ECW Title reign is not counted (which to me is bullsh*t - it should have regained status ever since RVD held both WWE and ECW titles at the same time) (and don't get me started on the Ric Flair number of reigns issue - I believe he had 25 different reigns - I did the research) but I noticed that it listed that he had 2 TNA reigns and not 2 WWE reigns. But i discovered a different problem: if you link to this page from the PWI main article, it searches for: "PWI's List of Wrestling World Heavyweight Title Reigns" (notice the capitalized letters) When you search for that, it will give you the "redirected from" warning under the title and the incorrect title reings. The actual title is: "PWI's list of wrestling World Heavyweight Title reigns" (there are less capitalized letters) When you search for that, there is no "redirected" warning and Big Show's title reigns are correct. WTF? Diego 14:12 p.s.t. 30 August 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.121.60.42 (talk) 21:16, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

NWA Title - Pearce reign

Adam Pearce just won the vacant NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Since this is the first reign after TNA severed ties with the NWA, should we wait and see if PWI recognizes the title as a World Title before putting him in the article, or should we put him in the article now and take him off later if his reign isn't recognized? TheNewMinistry 06:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

We put it now and take back later if he isn't recognized. Secretaria 14:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone edited the page and now it reads that NWA isn't an active world title in both heavyweight and tag team pages. Any source that it lost it's world status or did someone jump the gun? TonyFreakinAlmeida 00:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The Sandman

4-time World Champion according to ECW, but only 1-time according to wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.128.105 (talk) 08:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

PWI did not recongnize the ECW Title as an actual World Championship during four of five of The Sandman's reigns. This article is based on PWI's list. If you check The Sandman's article you'll see that he is listed as a five time champion. Gavyn Sykes 17:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

ECW World title status

I was checking the PWI website and I found this on its history sectio:"July 6 (1999): PWI grants world title status to ECW following the promotion’s deal with The Nashville Network to begin airing weekly programs on August 27.". This means that the world status was given on July 6 and not August 27, when it began airing on tv. Now, this fact doesn't affect the ecw championship since Taz was already the champion on July 6, but it affects the ecw tag team championship, whose championship changed hands 6 times from July 6 to August 27. Secretaria 22:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep, and the Dudleys also had a couple of title reigns that aired on ECW on TNN's premiere and first couple of episodes, so this means that they actually did have possibly 2 out of their 8 ECW Tag Title reigns recognized as World Tag Title reigns by Pro Wrestling Illustrated. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Correction, 3 world tag title reigns from PWI for Bubba Ray and Devon. I see you've already made the changes, hadn't seen this sooner, good job on the find and edits. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"World" Title status and discrimination

It seems to me that PWI is discriminatory towards any World Title claimant that's not of US origin... The only championship that are given "World Title" status are only those that originate from the US... All Japan and New Japan should and DESERVE World Title status... But of course, they're not American-originated World Champoinship, so that in itself nullifies any chance of it ever given recognition of World Championship. If PWI wants to be that discriminatory, then they should also nullify the recognition of non-Americans who have held "recognized" World Titles such as Bret Hart, Adam Copeland, Jason Reso, Masato Tanaka, Chris Benoit, Chris Irvine and so forth...

Why even call them "World" Titles if they won't recognized major championships from MAJOR companies from other nations.. the All Japan and New Japan are MAJOR companies and rival those like WWE and TNA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iroquoisfalls (talk • contribs) 08:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

For one thing, both WWE and TNA have TV shows/PPV's that are shown internationally. Also, WWE tours outside of the country a lot and has their titles defended outside of the country and TNA is starting to do so. AJPW and NJPW do neither. If you want to know PWI's direct answers, e-mail them rather than complaining about it here. This page is for discussing ways to improve the article, not talk about the general subject (see WP:TALKPAGE). TJ Spyke 22:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

TJ's right, it's a sad truth of quite a few Japanese promotions and their reach outside their country of origin. TonyFreakinAlmeida 00:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Sandman

5-time ECW Champion, but only 1-time world champion?

Yes, you're right. Read above in one of the million "Sandman" sections. Secretaria 20:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Kurt Angle's May 2007 reign

Not listed here? he definitely held the NWA Title for 24 hours, so why no mention?

NWA doesn't recognize the reign, only TNA. Until the reign isn't recognized by the NWA, PWI won't recognize it either. Secretaria 20:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

NWA and PWI will likely never count it since TNA no longer had control over the belt. The NWA stripped Cage and Team 3D of the belts (and the NWA took them back), so there was no title for Angle to win that night. TJ Spyke 00:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

NWA title reigns from 2002-2007

PWI retroactively awarded all the NWA title reigns under TNA from 2002-2007 world title status.

So...where did they go? Jarrett still has his reigns listed, but Raven and others are missing their NWA reigns. TheNewMinistry 23:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• nevermind, fixed it TheNewMinistry 23:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

NWA World Title?

This page lists the NWA World Title as having been stripped of World Title status on May 13. This seems to be the logical thing for PWI to do, but this page doesn't cite a source. Does anybody have proof that the PWI has already stripped this title of World Title status? If not, I think we should assume they haven't, at least until PWI says otherwise. 63.3.9.129 04:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You're correct, there's no proof, but historically Pro Wrestling Illustrated has only recognized three world heavyweight titles at any given time. It's been said they "quietly" stripped it of their status, since that title only got World Status from the magazine back because of it's exposure in TNA and all, once TNA dropped that title in favor of their own new title, it was a no-brainer that PWI would grant TNA's new title that status in the NWA title's place. PWI hasn't mentioned the NWA title in their online updates since it's final days in TNA as well, so that's good indication of their care for it. TonyFreakinAlmeida 03:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The Sandman

According to the new issue of Power Slam magazine, The Sandman is a 4-time ECW WORLD Champion! But he's just listed as a 1-time World Champion here. What gives?

Please read the other topics on this page before posting. That has been brought up around a dozen times. I'm not going to bother explaining it again. Bmf 51 (talk) 01:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Chuck Palumbo

Some messages above somebody mentioned that Chuck Palumbo is a former WCW World Champion. What's up with that? Is that a joke, or should Palumbo be included in this article?

I don't recall Palumbo winning the World Title, even in a "Dusty finish". Even if he did win it in that fashion, it shouldn't be counted. The argument made in the message above was that if Chris Benoit's reign is recognized, so should Palumbo's reign (if it existed, which it might). However, WCW, WWE, and PWI all recognized/recognize Benoit's reign. None of those three recognize Palumbo as a former champion. So his reign (if he did indeed "win" the title in a Dusty finish) shouldn't be counted, nor should any other reign involving a Dusty finish be counted (including Benoit's two WWE title "victories", which were a result of Dusty finishes). But Benoit's reign in WCW should be counted because the victory wasn't overturned (as happens in Dusty finish). Rather, he was stripped of the title following his departure for WWE, with the match's result staying intact. Bmf 51 (talk) 01:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Flair//Race '84

Apparently the rationale for not including the Hogan-Bockwinkel changes in the 890's are that they were not recognised at the time, and were only deemed official years after the event. But then what about the Flair/Race changes in New Zealand and Singapore? These were never acknowledged(if they ever really happened at all) at the time, and all PWI's, Inside Wrestoing's, The Wrestler's etc refer to Race as a 7-time, and Flair as 1-less than thought of now. I remember before Starrcade 1993 when one of the London mags did a big piece about whether Flair would wis tenth (overall including his 2 WWF belts) World Title. In the same article Race was referred to as a 7-time former World Champion. Then about 1996 or so(?) somebody decided that these changes did happen, and so now Race is an 8-time etc. Hoever WWE doesn't recognize these title changes as ever having had happened, and according to them Flair reaches 16 World Tityles by adding his 1993 NWA Title(which PWI doesn't regard as a World Title). Also, unlike Hogan-Bockwinkel (and one of Flair's Caribbean switches) no footage or proof exists that these title switches('84 in NZ/Sing) ever took place at all! I honestly do not understand how the Race/Flair title changes are official, but then Hogan's 2 AWA reigns aren't. And if Race/Flair is official then why Jovica, Veneno, and Colon aren't recognized?

Verne Gagne

I added up Verne's list from the PWI Title History page, and get 9 AWA World Titles. It's listed as 10 here? :Not sure. TJ Spyke 18:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Sandman

he won the ECW World Title FIVE times, not one, as wrongly stated here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benoit's Ghost (talk • contribs)

He won the ECW Championship 5 times, but he only won it 1 time when it had world title status (August 1999-April 2001). TJ Spyke 18:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Different NWA's ?

I have seen reports etc that the 2 NWA belts 1)from 1948-1991 2)from 2002-2007

are in fact 2 DIFFERENT belts, not the same lineage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benoit's Ghost (talk • contribs)

Those reports are wrong. It's the same title with the same lineage (the NWA itself says this, as does every RELIABLE title history site).

Hogan's seventh WCW reign

At Bash at the Beach 2000 Hogan clearly pinned Jarrett, and usso in his "shoot", even stated that Hogan "got his wish and won the World Title". Should it be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benoit's Ghost (talk • contribs)

No, because Hogan didn't win the title. TJ Spyke 18:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Antonio Inoki

Where is he on this list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benoit's Ghost (talk • contribs)

He never won a recognized world title (his WWF Title win was never recognized). TJ Spyke 18:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Didn't the old WWF.com title history page have his title reign???--JB {{flagicon|Canada}} (talk) 17:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Not that I know of. TJ Spyke 22:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)