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Ireland and Iceland as part of P.I.G.S.

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Ireland and Iceland are definitely not in southern Europe.

ICE77 (talk) 03:37, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Revert of re-write

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I've reverted a wholesale re-write of the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PIGS_%28economics%29&oldid=676853102

The substance of the re-write shifted the balance of who is the "real" PIG (Ireland or Italy) and to play-down Italy's association with the term. The problem with the re-write, however, is that the references it cites says the oppose of what it claims.

For example there was the statement: "Sometimes a second "I" was added in order to restore the presence of Italy..." But the reference supporting this statement says: "Ireland was sometimes thrown in as a second 'I'..." (i.e. the very opposite). Similar examples are throughout the re-write.

Perhaps, if there is something to correct, the author can identify problems here on the talk page and cite an appropriate source for their claim. --Tóraí (talk) 19:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. First of all the re-write included Italy. I think that the real problem is that now the article plays down Ireland's association with the term which is the actual country that needed a bailout. I am going to explain the history of the term. In the 1990's the term was used to refer to Southern Europe. During the European Crisis The term was used to refer to the four countries that were bailout recipients. And after that, Italy was re-added as a second I in order to replace Ireland because people thought Italy needed a bailout. The sources were clear about all of this. Barjimoa (talk) 11:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the term gained prominence during the European crisis. Barjimoa (talk) 11:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to describe the sources you have eliminated. I thought that you should had find a consensus before deleting everything i wrote. However thank you for having brought the issue here. 

Barjimoa (talk) 12:00, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The first source describes Portugal Ireland Spain and Greece as PIGS. The second source (BBC) does the same thing and adds that some "analysts use PIIGS to include Italy - Europe's longstanding biggest debtor." So, Italy is the second I. Not Ireland. At the beginning of the Crisis, Ireland replaced Italy. After that, some analysts feared that Italy needed a bailout and therefore they restored the presence of Italy (PIIGS). Barjimoa (talk) 12:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "New york times" and the fourth source also describe the PIGS as the four countries that needed a bailout. Furthermore the fourth source basically says what the BBC already said: "we should be talking PIIGS here, not PIGS. The former bundles Italy in with the four PIGS countries."

Conclusion: In the 1990's the term was coined to refer to southern Europe. During the European Crisis, Ireland replaced Italy. And after that sometimes Italy was added as the second I. In practice, people use the term as they prefer but this is the historical (and financial) use of the term. Barjimoa (talk) 12:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, It makes sense. I agree with Barjimoa, i prefer that version. That version changes the order in which countries are presented, not the sense of the article. It seems more correct. 01opportunity (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good, I also wanted to say that the article follows the sources that i have provided. Actually, there were sources proving my point, even before I added the four sources that i have described. I am going to make that clear in the article. Barjimoa (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take that one sentence, which appears to be the nub of a thesis the re-write is putting forward: "Sometimes a second "I" was added in order to restore the presence of Italy (changing the acronym to PIIGS)."
This is backed up by 6 references, 4 all of which actually contradict the claim:
  • "PIGS usually refers to the economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain." ref
  • "The acronym "PIGS" was first coined in the 1990s to describe Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain – four peripheral European Union states with the weakest economies. In 2008, it became PIIGS when Ireland was added after its banking crisis." ref
  • "...PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain) group. Ireland was sometimes thrown in as a second 'I'." ref
  • "PIGS includes Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. While not originally included in the group, Ireland has found its way into the mix, which is why the term PIIGS is more commonly used now." ref
This kind of false use of references is throughout the re-write. For that reason alone it cannot stand. It fails WP:V. I suggest that rather than clumsily trying to push a POV using false references (deliberately or not) that you identify what you believe needs to be improved with the existing version of the article. --Tóraí (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I'll do that.

I just want to say that these are not the sources i have included. And only one of these sources contradict my point.. Maybe I am not able to explain myself. This is the historical order of the term PIGS (1990s:Italy)>PIGS (European crisis: Ireland)> PIIGS > PIIGGS. But the main problem of this article is that it totally ignores the fact that term is often used to refer to the four countries that were bailout recipients. 

Barjimoa (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tóraí, I have taken your suggestion and I have made a reasonable edit. I still prefer the former version, however this can be a compromise (altough it is partly wrong to say that all of Italy is in southern Europe, since Northern Italy is in central europe but anyway....). I removed the controversial part that claimed that Italy's presence was first eliminated and than restored. And i have mantained the 1990s meaning of the term in the beginning of the lead. Barjimoa (talk) 22:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. I can see what you're doing. I'll tweak it a bit and feel free to modify my edit again to improve it again. --Tóraí (talk) 19:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PFIGS - Portugal, France, Italy, Greece, Spain

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I heard 'P.F.I.G.S' used in northern European lands towards the Romance/Mediterranean lands of Portugal, France, Greece, and Spain - moreso towards the French than anything. Has the spelling hints, moreso in the nations of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, and the Netherlands, Luxemburg, and Lichtenstein but also the likes of Norse countries. Seems to be taking off in Australia and New Zealand too, where it runs alongside the word 'wog' for the natives of the aforesaid 'pfigs'. I think it was an Luxemburger whom introduced 'pfigs' into the British isles - he was shocked at just how many French immigrants living in London, and compared the so-called 'Calais jungle' preferable compared to the 'pfig-sty' bits of London had sadly become. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:411:1600:226:8FF:FEDC:FD74 (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

UK treats Southern and Eastern Europeans as subhuman

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Well at least they're not as xenophobic as the French and all countries from the Germanic language group. 109.230.45.15 (talk) 18:24, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:FORUM Jonpatterns (talk) 18:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So Germans use a word to describe southern europeans, and it's pigs.

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And wikipedia bans the discussion of that fact. ok............ --fs 12:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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