Talk:Përmet/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Përmet. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Name

Now that we have a reliable source that states that Greeks lived there, I hope the name question has been definitively settled. Athenean (talk) 22:25, 4 June 2010 (UTC) The name is used by many English-language sources, [, per http://www.google.com/search?q=premeti&btnG=Search+Books&tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1], therefore placing it in lead makes sense and is useful. Athenean (talk) 00:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)Why your lying yourself and others about greeks who "lived" there, the greeks didn't live in ioannina to begin with until 1913 London Conference when greece got half of Epir Region and now you want someone to believe your crap out of nowhere. Get it Permet and all southern albania was cradle of albanian patriotism and national awakening which strached even down to southern tip of Epir. No point putting edited photos to change the colour of the river — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.52.190 (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I am from there: Not a single Greek in the town, now, or ever! It's all propaganda. Greece should focus more on getting its economy out of the toilet, than making up history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.30.218 (talk) 20:46, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Name #2

I believe Mondiad needs to explain edit warring about the alternative name., especially the use of aggresive arguments in the edit summaries. One of the arguments appear to be completely wrong [[1]], about claiming that this is not part of a "minority zone". Even if we use this pov criterion, according to the new administrative reform the municipality of Permet includes Carcove, which is partly a so-called "minority zone". Thus, even if we use pov standards the alternative name should be part of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 19:04, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

As we can see here, [2], the Greek name "Premeti" is widely used in English-language sources, which is not surprising since Greeks lived there. Therefore, per WP:NCGN, the inclusion of the Greek name is warranted. Athenean (talk) 22:53, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Stop massacring every Albanian article with the word Greek. Leave the articles alone. Stop with Greek chauvinism. Since there is a name for the town, maybe sources that mention that. Does it mean anything that Italians call Munich "Monacho"? And there are plenty of sources that back that. So what?Mondiad (talk) 01:23, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

This is the English wikipedia. English-language sources never use "Monacho". Italian-language sources use "Monacho", and guess what? The Italian wikipedia uses "Monacho". Similarly, English language sources use "Premeti". So guess what? We are going to use it too. It's that simple. There is a wikipedia policy that decides these issues, it's called WP:NCGN. Do take the time to read and understand it. Again, this is the English wikipedia. If you want to continue to enjoy your editing privileges in the English wikipedia, please conform to its policies. Otherwise we will go (WP:AE|here), and pretty soon you will only be allowed to edit the Albanian language wikipedia (which, thankfully, does not use "Premeti"). Athenean (talk) 05:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the town and district was known as Permeti should not be omitted from the article.--Zoupan 14:39, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Greek population

Are there any newer sources regarding the Greek or "Greek-speaking" inhabitants?--Zoupan 14:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Can't find any number yet. Note that the existing section contains estimates about the Kaza and the wider region, not the town.Alexikoua (talk) 14:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Keep searching, you chauvinist! So glad your failed miserable country is in the toilet! Your economy is done! Germany owns you! Start selling more island for the next bailout payment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.30.218 (talk) 20:49, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

2013 clashes

A brief mention of the incident is ok. It was one of the main events in post-communist Albania that provoked reactions from the religious authorities and diplomatic intervention. Apart from the major news agencies the events are also mentioned with some detail in journals of political analysis.Alexikoua (talk) 21:09, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

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Stath Melani a Permet notable?

Alexikoua Which is the municipal unit where Melan is? Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC) Current municipalities cover wide areas and in some cases they correspond to the former districts, thus its impossible for an article that's about the city to cover also info about the entire municipality too. A similar issue occurred in Korce article, where the existence of antiquities that lie 750 metres from the urban centre was removed due to the fact that they belonged to another municipal unit (though part of the same Korce municipality). In the same fashion a notable person that wasn't born in Permet municipal unit can't be included in the correspondent section.Alexikoua (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Honestly I've seen editors on both sides apply double standards on this issue. I think since the municipal units keep changing and now they are ridiculously big, we should just keep it to if the person lived in the city as the simplest fair way to do it. If Stathi lived in Permet the city, keep; if not remove. He can be placed on the municipality page, next to Naim Frasheri. --Calthinus (talk) 22:39, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Calthinus Both Kotani and Verli say Stath Melani lived in Permet (town) after he returned from US. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:44, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 well then if he lived in the city surely there is no reason to remove him. Tons of people are placed in the notables list for cities they've lived in but weren't born in. --Calthinus (talk) 22:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Calthinus: According to the same rationale the specific one can be placed as a notable person in Worcester, Southbridge, Constantinople etc. However, this section actually serves to display the ones that are natives of this settlements and the person in question was not one of them.Alexikoua (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

It appears also that this edit summary needs a citation [[3]] since the correspondent article says no word of this.Alexikoua (talk) 23:18, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Ktrimi: Melan appears in various Ottoman records as part of Leskovik kaza, it's located in Petran municipal unit as per this: [[4]].Alexikoua (talk) 23:28, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Well no, he would not be placed in Constantinople, not because living there is not enough, but because Constantinople as the capital fo the Eastern Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires has loads of far more important people and not enough room for him. Worcester is somewhere in the middle, I wouldn't place him there, but I wouldn't remove it either. I've noticed there are several ethnic Greek figures in Southern Albanian cities' notables lists (whether on the page or categories) who were not in fact born there. Dimitrios Doulis was born in Nivice, not Saranda. Stavrianos Vistiaris was also born in a hinterland village. As was Andreas Zarbalas. Yet they are "from Saranda". Nobody has touched them. --Calthinus (talk) 23:38, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry but can't see the specific names in the notable people's section in Saranda article (actually they were never part of it even when this section existed [[5]]). Also your definition about who should belong in this section lacks objectivity: if a city was a capital or not that's irrelevant issue. I won't object a general cleanup: the specific lists are about natives not ones that simply lived there.Alexikoua (talk) 12:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

They are in Category:People from Sarandë. And no it's not inherently because Constantinople is the capital city of three major historical entities plus modern Turkey, but because of the (correlated) fact that Stath Melani is simply irrelevant in comparison to all the great and influential people hailing from Constantinople, the mother of cities and a long-time center of civilization. It's an issue of notability. Permet, however, is not nearly as important a place. It can't even really be called a city. --Calthinus (talk) 17:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Nice mention about the cases of this category (though they were never in the notables section of Saranda as the case of S.M. in Permet), since there isn't a category "People from Sarande district" the most appropriate category is "P. of Vlore County". S. Melani is a similar case who isn't a native of his district's capital too.Alexikoua (talk) 19:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Whoever feels a bit confused can have a look at articles such as Ulcinj, Niš, Jagodina, Bari and Nuremberg. The notable people section has a list of notable people who were born and/or are important part of the specific settlement's history and tradition because of their contribution as residents. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

wp:OTHERCRAPEXISTS isn't an argument. By the way, your claim still needs some decent citation about S. Melani: based on his article he didn't lived a single day in the city.Alexikoua (talk) 22:56, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Well I do appreciate the attempts to be consistent Alexi. Though on that note Doulis also is from Nivice not exactly Lukove itself which still lists him. Personally I don't really have a stake in this one as long as the solution is principled and fair to both sides across articles in Greek/Albanian border areas.--Calthinus (talk) 23:43, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your nice comments Cal.. Doulis was born in the municipal unit of Lukova, on the other hand Melani wasn't born in the municipal unit of Permet, but in Petran (Melani belongs to Petran, Nivice Bubar in Lokova mun. unit). Thus, Melani needs to be moved there in the same fashion Doulis belongs to Lukove and not Sarnada, the capital of the district. I also can't understand why you neglect to support with a decent citation your edit summary in your revert [[6]] (neither the correspondent article says a word about).Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about with my edit summary, but if you're referring to the citation for Congress of Manastir, no I didn't have that [so I removed it in the next edit]...? As for the cite it turns out Ktrimi had it anyways. Anyhow, apparently it seems that the municipal unit you speak of now no longer exists and is now part of the municipality of Himare. --Calthinus (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant the edit summary in your revert [[7]] which still needs -cn- since the subject still appears not to have spent a single day in this town. Not to mention that his birthplace is from another municipal unit (contrary to Doulis who was born in the municipal unit of Lukova).Alexikoua (talk) 08:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Alexikoua my apologies, perhaps that should have been obvious, my bad. Usually the "Notables" section does not have cites for each person-- for example, none of the others is cited. I have nothing against providing a cite, but I'm a bit busy at the moment. I re-added it, as you can see above, because Ktrimi presented textual sources for his stay in Permet after returning from the States, which was a very important part of his life. Perhaps Ktrimi991 can help here then? Cheers all, --Calthinus (talk) 15:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC) P.S. regarding Doulis, this seems to now be the municipality called "Himare". --Calthinus (talk) 15:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

The addition of the specific person is inappropriate due to being from another municpal unit, contrary to Doulis who is place in the correct one (the argument about his so-called stay in Permet still needs citation: no slightest evidence in the correspondent article).Alexikoua (talk) 13:34, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Well the person who seems to care more about Stath Melani's place here is absent. But I may remind you that regarding Doulis, it seems Lukove municipality no longer exists. Now Lukove only refers to one entity-- the city. The municipality was merged into Himare municipality two years ago.--Calthinus (talk) 06:37, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

As I've mentioned above the municipal unit of Lukova still exists (Petran too). Imagine the mess that will be created if we add all notables that belong to the current (larger) municipalities in the article of their correspondent capitals. Current municipalities deal with wide regions that nearly correspondent with their districts: Korce municipality includes even Moscopole municipal unit (the same with Libohove and Zagoria) etc..Alexikoua (talk) 10:21, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Alexikoua with your permission I would like to move this discussion to WikiProject Albania, where a broad consensus may be formed covering this issue. If you want I can try to revive that old Albania-Greece "peace" talk page, forget what it was called, I stumbled upon it one day. My aim in moving it isn't to subtly canvas -- just want to make a broad consensus on this issue so that there may be symmetrical treatment everywhere. Is that ok with you? And if so which group talk page would you prefer this discussion moved to?--Calthinus (talk) 17:02, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this issue concerns all municipal capitals in Albania. Thus, a new topic in WP:Albania will be an appropriate initiative. My main concern here is: Current municipalities cover much wider areas than previous one due to the last administrative reform. Should the article about the municipal capital cover also all related information about the correspondent municipality (for example adjusting the "Notable peoples" section accordingly, or restoring the Mycenaean past of Korce due to the antiquities in Quender Bulgarec municipal unit)?.Alexikoua (talk) 17:12, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion started there, all participants tagged. --Calthinus (talk) 22:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)