Talk:Pétur Marteinsson

Value of DEFAULTSORT

Hello Snaevar: In your last edit, you changed the DEFAULTSORT value (from "Marteinsson, Petur" to "Petur Marteinsson") with an edit summary linking to the guideline WP:SUR. In my interpretation of WP:SUR, the DEFAULTSORT value was correct before your edit, because the guideline says "Normally a patronymic name is sorted as they are written. However, on English Wikipedia, the DEFAULTSORT value is Western order while an Icelandic category's sort value is as the name is written." and then there is an example which exactly matches the situation before your edit:

• {{DEFAULTSORT:Marteinsson, Petur}}
• [[Category:1973 births]] → this is not an Icelandic category so it will use the DEFAULTSORT
• [[Category:Living people]] → this is not an Icelandic category so it will use the DEFAULTSORT
• [[Category:Sportspeople from Reykjavík|Petur Marteinsson]] → this is an Icelandic category so it will use the name as it is written.

Then, the guideline explains one of the reasons: "For the listas= parameter in project templates on article talk pages use the DEFAULTSORT value (since it mainly categorises in non-Icelandic categories)". Are you sure about your edit? Regards --NicoScribe (talk) 17:59, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

This is not just a matter of what I think of the edit in correspondance to the guideline. The main issue is that the guideline is written in an ambiguous way. That does need to be remedied to solve the issue. So, no, I do not agree with every single statement you are making, far from it.--Snaevar (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you that the part "However, on English Wikipedia, the DEFAULTSORT value is Western order while an Icelandic category's sort value is as the name is written." is strangely written. But I think that, even without this part, the guideline contains very strong hints leading to {{DEFAULTSORT:Marteinsson, Petur}}:

1. the example is clear
2. the guideline has the reference n°10 leading to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Iceland/Archive_3#Sort_keys_for_Icelandic_names which says:
   • For Icelandic related categories pipe "first name second name" (no commas)
   • For DEFAULTSORT and other categories use "second name, first name" (with commas). Treat second name as surname.
   • For listas use DEFAULTSORT value (since it mainly categorises in non-Icelandic categories).
3. the guideline says "Normally a patronymic name is sorted as they are written. However, on English Wikipedia, the DEFAULTSORT value..." so I understand that, with the DEFAULTSORT value, the patronymic name is not sorted as it is written.

Moreover, I've found another text which is clear: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Iceland/Style_advice#Sorting.

What do you think of these new elements?

I agree that an unambiguous guideline is more important than "what you and I think" or "what you and I prefer" (well, without the guideline, my preference would be {{DEFAULTSORT:Petur Marteinsson}}). Do you think we should open a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people to improve the guideline? --NicoScribe (talk) 21:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello Snaevar: I have followed your comment. I have asked for a clarification of the guideline, in Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#Clarification_about_the_DEFAULTSORT/sort_key_for_the_Icelandic_names. --NicoScribe (talk) 13:32, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello Snaevar: in the guideline talk, I have asked for a clarification of the ambiguous sentence without modification of the meaning. It was a long talk, and the sentence has been modified. The old sentence "However, on English Wikipedia, the DEFAULTSORT value is Western order while an Icelandic category's sort value is as the name is written." has become "However, on English Wikipedia, the DEFAULTSORT value is Western order, overridden for Icelandic categories, where the sort key is as the name is written.". I think that the new sentence is clearer than the old one. Do you think that it is clearer? --NicoScribe (talk) 20:32, 25 September 2016 (UTC)