Talk:Outline of BDSM

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	This article is an outline, a type of article that presents a list of articles or sub-topics related to its subject in a hierarchical form. For the standardized set of outlines on Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Contents/Outlines. Outlines are within the scope of WikiProject Outlines, a collaborative effort to improve outlines on Wikipedia. For guidance on building and maintaining outlines, see Wikipedia:Outlines.OutlinesWikipedia:WikiProject OutlinesTemplate:WikiProject OutlinesOutlines articles
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Quick explanation of Wikipedia outlines

"Outline" is short for "hierarchical outline". There are two types of outlines: sentence outlines (like those you made in school to plan a paper), and topic outlines (like the topical synopses that professors hand out at the beginning of a college course). Outlines on Wikipedia are primarily topic outlines that serve 2 main purposes: they provide taxonomical classification of subjects showing what topics belong to a subject and how they are related to each other (via their placement in the tree structure), and as subject-based tables of contents linked to topics in the encyclopedia. The hierarchy is maintained through the use of heading levels and indented bullets. See Wikipedia:Outlines for a more in-depth explanation. The Transhumanist 23:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lead image

As many people here know, Wikipedia is NOT censored. That's why there are many images with nudity in this article and in many other articles.

However, according to MOS:SHOCKVALUE and MOS:LEADIMAGE, "lead images should be of least shock value; an alternative image that accurately represents the topic without shock value should always be preferred". So the old lead image that has nudity was replaced with another image without nudity. Both lead images have the exact same context: a person on a leash during some BDSM event. The only difference is the nudity.

MOS:SHOCKVALUE also says: "sometimes it is impossible to avoid using a lead image with perceived shock value, for example in articles on human genitalia". But that's not the case here, it is possible to use a lead image without perceived shock value. Both lead images (the old and the new) bring the same information to the readers, the only difference is the nudity. gabibb2 ^✉ 04:12, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought the "shock value" of the lede image would be a person with a collar and lead, not a pair of breasts. Please do not continue to change the image back to what you think it should be unless you gain consensus here on the talk page. --John B123 (talk) 18:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, @John B123:, sorry for tagging you again. After both of us reach a consensus on Master/slave talk page, can we talk about Outline of BDSM lead image now? The current lead image is even less relevant here than it is in the other article, in my opinion. Originally, I was trying to swap the current lead image to another lead image with the same context: a BDSM couple without nudity, since a full-body nudity is irrelevant to illustrate Outline of BDSM. Can we put one of the images you suggested in the Master/slave talk page? If you prefer, there are also other suggestions without BDSM couples that could also illustrate this article well, such as BDSM equipment, a Dominatrix in a BDSM dungeon or three people in BDSM attire at a BDSM event.

Ironically, the lead image of this article was changed by an anonymous user without any discussion three weeks ago.[1] Then the same person reverted my revision complaining about changing the lead image without any discussion.

By the way, if you already thought that master/slave was unbalanced in terms of gender, this one is even more unbalanced. It is basically full of naked women. As I said before, Wikipedia is not censored and nudity is completely acceptable for improving the quality of the articles. But let's be honest here, it looks like these images were probably posted by some horny user. There are thousands of BDSM images on Wikimedia commons, but it is very ironic that here there is no male nudity, male submissive, gay couple, etc. gabibb2 ^✉ 22:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, out of the three, a Dominatrix in a BDSM dungeon jumps out at me as being the best by far (probably a psychologist would read a lot of meaning into that!) I did think BDSM equipment would be suitable for the "BDSM equipment" section, but none of the equipment in the picture is listed in that section, so it's not just the images that need attention.

Totally agree about the images imbalance, and that the images should be more inclusive. --John B123 (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Edit to add, given her importance in bringing BDSM towards mainstream, I'd like to see more Bettie Page [2] images within the various articles, but of course this doesn't help the balance issues. --John B123 (talk) 23:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"But none of the equipment in the picture is listed in that section". It is VERY weird that the article is mentioning only gags and bondage harness. In my experience, gags are actually prohibited at many BDSM events because they are not considered "safe" by many people. Gags should be mentioned, but it weird that it is being mentioned over more commons equipments like whips, spanking paddles, strap-on dildos and violet wands. Anyway, the whole article is pretty bad. There are also internal links to many articles that were deleted or redirected, like Contract, Negotiation and Ass torture.

I was going to originally only change the lead image because of the shock value guidelines. But I think I can help improve the whole article. I'm a little busy right now, but some other day I can suggest many images of female and male submission, straight and LGBT activities, etc.

I agree with you about Bettie Page. We could put one of her images in "significant BDSM people" section. gabibb2 ^✉ 00:00, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted while discussed. This is becoming a habit for both of us. Curved Space (talk) 21:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both people who were in this discussion agreed that the image should be replaced. You should not continue to revert edits without a valid reason. If you disagree with our decision, please bring your arguments. gabibb2 ^✉ 22:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]