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Archive 1

Second tier or third tier

If they are playing pro division in USL, wouldn't they be in the second tier rather than the third tier of the pyramid? After all, Austin played in the second level of the pyramid, why wouldn't it after moving? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Soccer_Pyramid Frank0051 (talk) 17:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Because USL Pro is a D3 league, not a D2 leage. The NASL is going to be the D2 league. --JonBroxton (talk) 18:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Team badge

I'm curious about the badge presented in the article. I live in Orlando, and all of the billboards I have seen advertising the team around town feature a green and white badge with a single lion rampant and topped with a crown. I'm not sure what to make of this discrepancy. 69.174.87.20 (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. --Trödel 21:37, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


Orlando City S.C. → Orlando City Soccer Club – I think we should move the article to Orlando City Soccer Club, since that is what the team goes by on its Facebook, website, and contact information. Frank0051 (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

This appears to be an uncontroversial move - so I moved it please lodge any objections below --Trödel 21:37, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge discussion: Orlando City Soccer Club (2015)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was to not merge. Pursuant to precedent with other MLS teams formed using the same name as a lower league team. It is a separate legal entity with a separate existence. The articles will properly diverge as this article will focus on the final USL Pro season, and the Orlando City Soccer Club (2015) article will focus more on preparations for entry to MLS. --Trödel 21:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Following tonight's MLS announcement, an editor has created Orlando City Soccer Club (2015). However, it is entirely redundant with the current article, where the same material about the coming MLS jump was already starting to be added. There's also an element of WP:CRYSTALBALL, as this isn't scheduled to happen for two years. The new article covers nothing that can't be dealt better here at the base name; maintaining two nearly identical articles does nothing to benefit readers.--Cúchullain t/c 05:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

As nominator, you're not permitted to vote. – Michael (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Please don't refactor other users' comments. My vote is clearly marked as "as nominator".--Cúchullain t/c 20:00, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
My apologies, I didn't quite pick up on that rule. – Michael (talk) 22:25, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
No trouble at all.--Cúchullain t/c 00:51, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
This isn't a vote per WP:NOT#DEM.--UnquestionableTruth-- 03:17, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, I see there's precedent on Wikipedia to treat different incarnations of a team as separate subjects, so my apologies on that front. However, the practice strikes me as cumbersome and doctrinaire, and out of step with wider Wikipedia policy. The teams have the same name, branding, ownership, management, and possibly even players down the road; they're only "different" in an extremely legal sense. It's going to be a lot more confusing for readers of articles like this, which says "The Lions will play one more season in USL-Pro before joining MLS in 2015", to type in Orlando City Soccer Club on Wikipedia only to find that this article on a "team with the same name and ownership" arbitrarily excludes the information they're looking for.--Cúchullain t/c 05:58, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
As such I believe that's why we have guidelines for the disambiguation of subjects. As for defining what this team is to the former team, that's a non-issue simply because despite this team as well as previous teams sharing "the same name, branding, ownership, management, and possibly even players down the road" with their other counterparts, they are nonetheless different from one another. A slightly magnified yet still appropriate example would be the Red Bull New York and its vast "similarities" with the Red Bull Brasil. Despite sharing the the same name, branding, and ownership, they are nonetheless "different." --UnquestionableTruth-- 06:37, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
It's clearly not a "non-issue" as the sources treat them as one entity.[1][2][3] A better example would be San Antonio Spurs - they played in the American Basketball Association before moving into the NBA; despite this change the sources treat it as a single team and thus so does Wikipedia. Wikipedia articles need to follow how the sources handle subjects and not astonishment its readers with interpretations of the material that don't appear anywhere else; I highly doubt that many sources use phrases like "different team with the same name and ownership", for instance.--Cúchullain t/c 14:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Actually the better example would be if the Spurs' D-League team, the Austin Toros, were also called the Spurs and based in San Antonio. They'd both wear the same colors and such and be owned by the same people but they clearly wouldn't be the same team or "unit." That's why your argument falls flat. The more accurate example would be if the NBA Spurs didn't exist and the D-League Spurs ownership would then buy an expansion NBA team and also name them the Spurs. Unfortunately this hasn't happened in the NBA and there isn't a real example to use. Fortunately vast examples exist in a different league called the MLS. See the Sounders, Timbers, Whitecaps, Impact, and Earthquakes.71.189.134.239 (talk) 08:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge. Like all USL to MLS moves that have happened previously (add Seattle Sounders FC and Seattle Sounders (1994–2008) to the teams listed by 3bulletproof16) they are separate teams/franchises that just happen to share a name. Similar moves all have separate articles as precedent and this one should too. Any issues with the short nature of this article will be eliminated over the next few months as more information is added leading up to the team taking the field in 2015. Don't see any WP:CRYSTAL issue as this is not a speculative article. It is about a confirmed upcoming soccer franchise. Gateman1997 (talk) 05:38, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Merge This whole BS about MLS teams being different has got to stop. They share more than a name. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:42, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Comment Personal opinions aside Walter, factually speaking, MLS teams are indeed separate entities than their minor league counterparts. MLS expands through franchises unlike other soccer leagues where clubs in minor organizations can eventually elevate to the top league. --UnquestionableTruth-- 05:50, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
In a legal sense, perhaps, but even MLS discusses them as one unit.--Cúchullain t/c 05:58, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
You state that personal opinions should be aside, but you respond with a personal opinion that has been propagated across multiple articles. I'm not discussing promotion and relegation, which I completely understand. I'm stating that multiple teams, Montreal, Portland and Vancouver in particular, where not only is the team's ownership unchanged from its time in the second division, they all claim history from that era and earlier. This legal fiction that states that they are suddenly franchisees and therefore a completely different legal entity is the problem not the fact that some clubs didn't follow the model of earlier clubs. This imposition of an earlier precedent is too much of a burden and unsound. The Whitecaps, Timbers, Impact and now Orlando have paid to come into the league with their names and so I don't know why you think that's an opinion.
Besides, this entire merge discussion is an offering of opinion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Quite so. "Factually speaking", the sources describe them as one entity. It's not on Wikipedia editors to decide the sources are wrong, even if it's already been propagated at other articles.--Cúchullain t/c 21:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Merge Reading the articles, it definitely sounds like they are one unit in my mind as well. A thought that I had that may occur is that the league buys the team, bringing them in under the single entity like every other team, and then sells the franchise back to the owners for the expansion fee and whatever the league paid for the team. That way, the team is legally the same team and the league can keep the single entity structure. Of course, that is just my theory, but I would say that it sounds like they are going to be the same company in a legal sense, and as such, these pages should be merged. Elisfkc (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Comment Read Cúchullain's sources below in the Intro section. They are referred to as one entity. Elisfkc (talk) 15:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Read my follow up to that.--UnquestionableTruth-- 06:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
You misinterpret what those articles say. Both the expansion club and the current club share the same name causing allusions to be made with one another. The actual press release specifically states a "new MLS team, Orlando City Soccer Club, will join as an expansion team" not that the current USL Pro team will enter the league. --UnquestionableTruth-- 03:17, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
The sources say the things I quoted them as saying below. They all describe the USL and MLS incarnations as the same entity. Not one of them says anything like "a different team with the same name and ownership".--Cúchullain t/c 04:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
3bulletproof16, it is "Orlando's new MLS team, Orlando City Soccer Club, will join as an expansion team for the league’s 20th season." It is a new MLS team because it isa a new team to the MLS, not a brand new team. I also have sent an email to the team to try to find out what is the truth. Elisfkc (talk) 15:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
It bears pointing out that the whatever the team's viewpoint is won't trump what appears in the reliable, secondary sources for the subject. "Verifiability, not truth" and all that. What we have here is a situation where the sources say one thing and Wikipedia says another, which is a problem.--Cúchullain t/c 17:54, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As someone who works for the organization, we very much consider ourselves to be the same entity. There is no separate staff, there is no change in ownership or coaching staff, we will own the heritage and history of our time in USL PRO. The only reasonable argument for not merging the topics seems to be precedent set by other clubs, which seems to me to be a poor reason for separating our history into two articles. It's not for me to make edits to the page, but I would strongly propose the wiki community reassess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.43.47.82 (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Orlando City Stadium

Anyone want to help me create the Orlando City Stadium article? Elisfkc (talk) 14:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm in. I think at this point there's enough info on even outside the local press that even if it doesn't come to pass, it will be a notable failed project.--Cúchullain t/c 14:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Intro

Can we please stop removing the MLS mention from the first paragraph? It's essentially the most notable thing about the team at this point. Perhaps we can find different wording, but we shouldn't bury key information based on the fairly idiosyncratic way other MLS team articles are written. I've now included several sources, including one from MLS itself, that describe the USL Pro team and the announced MLS franchise as one entity:

The sources have no problem discussing this as one entity, and none I've seen call it a "different team with the same name and ownership". We need to follow them.--Cúchullain t/c 15:14, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't mean to insult your misinterpretation of the information provided in the sources, and I also won't say those sources are wrong, because they're not. The 21st MLS expansion team will be named the Orlando City Soccer Club, thus a club called Orlando City SC with the same name, ownership group and front office as the USL Pro team will play in MLS beginning in 2015. However with how MLS expansion works, this new team, while similar in a number of aspects to the minor league USL Pro team, is a separate entity from its USL Pro counterpart. As previously stated in the Orlando Sentinel The new soccer team will adopt the name and colors of the town's minor-league team, the purple-clad Orlando City Lions.--UnquestionableTruth-- 06:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

It takes a lot of parsing to get that interpretation. The fact remains that there is one entity underlying both incarnations of the team, and the sources treat it as such. And it's continuing to happen:

  • Orlando Sentinel: "Orlando City owners endorse current Lions coach Adrian Heath to lead club against MLS competition": "Orlando City owners Phil Rawlins and Flávio Augusto da Silva have already identified the man they want to help steer the Lions to the major league level. Still riding a wave of euphoria following a boisterous celebration of the club's official invitation to join Major League Soccer, the owners endorsed current Lions coach Adrian Heath."
  • Fox Sports, "New tasks for Orlando's MLS venture": "The fervor rose to the fore when Orlando City finally confirmed its expected ascent to MLS on Tuesday night."
  • Sports Business Daily You've Got 21! MLS Officially Announces Orlando City SC Will Join League For '15 Season "Orlando City's attendance 'peaked at an average of around 8,100 this season and roughly 12,700 during a playoff run that culminated in a USL-Pro championship.' The question 'will be how large an attendance bump the Lions can expect in the new 18,000-seat stadium.'"
  • MLS: "Kick Off: Orlando City set for "major announcement" on Tuesday": "All we know is that it's a "major announcement," the second in consecutive days for USL PRO side and MLS expansion hopefuls Orlando City"
  • MLS: "Get to know Orlando City SC, the newest club in Major League Soccer":
    • "History: The current incarnation of the club was founded in 2010 when the Austin Aztex moved to the Sunshine State..."
    • "Trophies: Orlando City have been the preeminent team in USL PRO since the league was founded in 2011."
    • "Stadium: Orlando City will call ESPN's Wide World of Sports Complex home in 2014, then will open MLS play in 2015 in the Florida Citrus Bowl Stadium, where they’ve played since 2010."
    • "[Phil Rawlins] originally founded the Aztex in 2007 before he moved the club to Orlando in 2010 with eyes on building it into an MLS expansion franchise."
    • "Head Coach: The man in charge since 2008 is Adrian Heath, a 52-year-old former regular with Everton, Manchester City and Burnley during his playing days in the 1980s and 1990s. He was the USL PRO Coach of the Year in 2011 and 2012, and has received ringing endorsements from Rawlins in the buildup to the MLS announcement."
  • MLS: "Sporting Kansas City mulling options for new USL PRO affiliation": "But even before Tuesday's announcement that Orlando City SC will be moving up from USL PRO to become MLS' 21st club in 2015, Sporting were already looking at plans for life after the Lions – plans that could involve owning their own lower-tier affiliate club."
  • Boston Globe: "Orlando City to join MLS in 2015": "After founding the club as the Texas-based Austin Aztex in 2008, Rawlins moved his franchise to Orlando as a minor league team that still competes in USL Pro (where it has won a Championship and a regular season title). Rawlins set up shop in Florida with the hope that his venture would one day become a professional MLS team."
  • Latino Post: "MLS Betting Big on Florida Soccer, Expanding Into Orlando While Supporting David Beckham's Project": "Soccer is returning in a big way to the state of Florida with Major League Soccer (MLS) announcing on Tuesday that the Orlando City Soccer Lions will get become an expansion team for the American soccer league that will be set to play in in 2015, promoting the team from the USL-Pro League."
  • Boston Herald: "Owners hope for global brand with Orlando MLS team": "Orlando City becomes MLS' 21st franchise and will start playing in the league in 2015. The team currently plays in the United Soccer Leagues."

This is not a case of a new team that happens to be "similar" to an old team. It's one entity behind the USL and MLS variants. There's no reason to divide it into separate articles, and even less to use confusing wording that doesn't appear in any sources to make the incarnations appear more distinct than they are.--Cúchullain t/c 15:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Again, [4] [5] [6] "The MLS club is expected to adopt the Orlando City Lions name and purple coloring of the current club, which was founded in 2010 and plays in the United Soccer League, the third-level of football in the United States." Nevermind the survey leaning towards keeping the articles separate, but its been clear from the start these are separate teams, one which draws its lineage from the other. Portland in 2010 announced their expansion in very much the same way Orlando did with the Timber name being adopted from the get go. --UnquestionableTruth-- 01:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you cited that one article already; your other two links just quote it. I've now given 14 sources, including several more recent ones from the same publication you quoted, that describe this as one entity. They are only "separate" to people bound and determined to read it that way. And none of the sources use confusing, wonkish qualifications like "teams with the same name and ownership" or say Orlando City was "founded" in 2013. In terms of encyclopedic coverage, there's no reason to have separate articles, and even if the consensus upholds the current status quo for now, we still can't make claims not included in the sources.--Cúchullain t/c 04:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
That last Orlando Sentinel article certainly used that terminology and made it clear that the new team would adopt the same branding as the minor league team and it sure didn't seem confusing to me. Perhaps that confuses readers bound and determined to read it differently, and somehow "new team adopting same stuff as other team" means "same team" to them. That's all a bit silly considering the official press release refers to its 2015 season as the new team's inaugural season not the old team's 5th. --UnquestionableTruth-- 07:02, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
That October piece from the Orlando Sentinel and later pieces quoting are the only things we've seen so far that can remotely be read in the way you're advocating. You're still not acknowledging the 14 other sources I've brought up that pretty clearly describe this as a single organization. As I showed, even subsequent Orlando Sentinel articles (that don't just quote the first one) have described it as one organization overseeing the USL and MLS incarnations.[7][8][9], as does MLS itself. The press release says 2015 will be the team's inaugural season in MLS, which is true, but even that also talks about them hosting "the USL PRO championship match in September" and says "Individuals who purchase 2014 Orlando City season tickets will have top priority for the club’s 2015 MLS season seat selection", which are obviously referring to the USL incarnation. Wikipedia is meant to reproduce what the available sources say about a subject; here they're consistently describing this as one organization.--Cúchullain t/c 00:06, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

More sources from outside Orlando describing this as one entity:

I'm sure we can find some middle ground here. Obviously we all agree that both incarnations have the same name, ownership and staff, and branding and identity. I think most of us also understand that MLS works on a franchise model, so Orlando City will be taking a new franchise slot in the league (and may thus be a new legal entity). The disagreement is whether that fact means the MLS franchise is separate enough that it needs to be discussed entirely on its own, considering that everything else is the same. For most people, "team with the same name, branding, ownership, and staff" = "same team", and it appears that a significant majority of available sources are comfortable describing both variants together.
My suggestion would be to make the differences known without drawing too fine a line around it, and without introducing claims that don't appear in the sources. As such, we should be perfectly comfortable saying things like "Orlando City Soccer Club currently plays in USL Pro, and has been selected as a 2015 MLS expansion franchise". If necessary, we can add links to the appropriate sections (or articles, if the local consensus is really to keep them separate.) In those designated sections (or articles), we can include wording like, "in 2013, the team announced that its MLS expansion bid was accepted. [[#MLS bid|Orlando City]] [or possibly <nowiki>[[Orlando City Soccer Club (2015)|Orlando City]] will join MLS as the league's 21st expansion franchise for the 2015 season.</nowiki> That way we aren't making up wording that doesn't appear in any sources just to justifying our article arrangement.--Cúchullain t/c 04:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

With the survey leaning towards the latter, that is keeping them separate, I'd be fine with that wording. 71.189.134.239 (talk) 20:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
It really doesn't seem like anyone else has much to add as far as this "local" survey is concerned. Might as well close it.--UnquestionableTruth-- 21:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
It's an RM. After it runs for at least 7 days an admin will come by and close it according to their judgement of the consensus.--Cúchullain t/c 21:49, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
If we look outside the relatively small realm of MLS article for a minute, there's substantial precedent for such an approach. Articles like Cincinnati Reds, Green Bay Packers, San Francisco 49ers, Detroit Pistons, San Antonio Spurs, and Edmonton Oilers all discuss the teams' origins in earlier leagues before they became franchises in their current leagues. In fact, this is necessary to provide good encyclopedic coverage of the subject.--Cúchullain t/c 04:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
That wasn't actually expansion though, which is what it is with the MLS. In the cases you listed above the teams and their properties were owned solely by their owners and entered their leagues via mergers. In MLS expansion, for teams with existing branding and other properties wishing to keep their brand identity when ownership buys into the league, they give up said properties to MLS as well as ownership and simply only operate their team. So basically they buy stake in the league through the 'expansion' fee, give up ownership of their branding properties and operate their new team under the existing branding now owned collectively by MLS. This unique single entity structure is what makes MLS different from other leagues. That's why its past cases of expansion are unique. That said, if the consensus agrees to keep the articles separate, I would also be ok with the wording you mentioned above.--UnquestionableTruth-- 21:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Every case has its nuances, but there's little functional difference between modern "expansion" and "creating a new franchise slot so we can bring the Green Bay Packers/Cincinnati Reds/Fort Wayne Pistons into our league", or even "absorbing another league and adding all/some of its teams as new franchises". And either way, regardless of how they function in a legal sense, the actions of the Orlando City organization prior to 2015 are the only reason there's an MLS franchise to begin with, and so it's necessary to cover in an encylopedic treatment of the team(s).--Cúchullain t/c 21:49, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Going forward, it sounds like we have some broad agreement about compromise wording. I hope to start working on some stuff using the sources I've found soon.--Cúchullain t/c 21:50, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Move to Orlando City Soccer Club (2010-2014)

Once Orlando City has played their final game of the season, which since they already clinched a playoff spot means the earliest will be September 13 and the latest will be September 27, I am going to move this page over to Orlando City Soccer Club (2010-2014). The name is in line with Seattle, Portland, and others. If you have any comments or disagree with this, speak now or forever hold your peace. Elisfkc (talk) 17:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Orlando City Soccer Club

The usage of Orlando City Soccer Club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:Orlando City Soccer Club (2015) -- 70.51.46.146 (talk) 04:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

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