Talk:Orange station (NJ Transit)

Proposed move

I have moved this article back from Orange station (New Jersey) to Orange (NJT station). I think a requested move for this article and most other similar NJT articles needs to be created here in the near future. epicgenius (talk) 01:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I can guarantee this one would be vague because the Orange Erie depot, if I ever get to it, would also be an Orange station. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 02:04, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Consensus has already been established in the USSTATION RfCs. If you have an objection to the convention, you should open a discussion there. --Regards, James(^talk/_contribs) 02:18, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

This was disputed at here, so that is why I restored original name for now. epicgenius (talk) 02:40, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

OK. The naming convention for these stations is "Name (NJT station)" whereas the naming convention in WP:USSTATION would simply be "Name station", with state or other disambiguation as required. As I see it, since NJT usage predates the current consensus, if you want to change from one to the other you must change them all. The entire system. Not just a random choice. I think that would require discussion. Secondarywaltz (talk) 04:46, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with moving them one at a time. In fact it's inevitable when dealing with ambiguous stations that are often not near each other, as with the Orange stations. However, now that it's been brought up it a bulk RM should probably be the way to handle it. To be fair, it does appear that the New York City Subway WikiProject does have written conventions, but I don't know if New Jersey Transit does, and at any way the conventions are out of step with the article titles policy and WP:USSTATION.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:42, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh! I agree with your naming. The problem is that some editors who work on articles which use those entrenched system naming conventions are going to fight to maintain the status quo. Since they already have disambiguation, there is no harm in us keeping those the way they are - for now. We can choose when we want to fight that fight. I'll be in your corner! Secondarywaltz (talk) 19:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Just the question that comes to mind is the fact that if I write Orange (Erie Railroad station), it's referencing the same Orange, New Jersey and Orange station (New Jersey) would then need to be a disambiguation. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 19:27, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

In that case, we'd distinguish by system, per WP:USSTATION. The proper titles would be something like Orange station (Erie Railroad) and Orange station (NJT).--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Either way, this problem is going to be prevalent across New Jersey, so it's something worth discussion. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 19:57, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 12 January 2016

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved; the number of "conditional" support votes, in the absence of a discussion evincing support for the mass move on which they are conditioned, makes it impossible to find a consensus in this discussion. I would suggest having the mass move discussion. bd2412 T 04:58, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Orange (NJT station) → Orange station (NJT) – USSTATION. Per the discussion above, it appears that disambiguation by system rather than by state is preferred, due to a currently non-existing article. Regards, James(^talk/_contribs) 21:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Conditional support – There are merits to the changes to USSTATION; however, America is a much more complex situation than much of the world when it comes to railway stations. Many railroads had many stations in the same municipality. At some point, we're going to have to conform, but I think that each station in NJ, NY, PA, etc should be considered on their own merits. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 21:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support per WP:USSTATION, but this really should be a multi-move proposal for the entire line.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I support Mackensen's suggestion of Orange station (New Jersey) as the simplest and clearest of all the proposed options; Orange Station (NJT) is also fine with me.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:09, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Conditional support, but only as part of a mass move. If every single NJT station cannot be moved, it is pointless to disambiguate just a single station. However, and I say this very lightly, there isn't really a need to move the article just this second. We can't move all the articles as once, either, so I suggest moving other articles to comply with USSTATION first. epicgenius (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
• Conditional support if you choose to raname all with the (NJT station) suffix. If you don't want to do the work required to change all of them to the current US station naming convention, at least amend your nomination and other people will do it for you. Secondarywaltz (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - The current use of simply "NJT" as a suffix applies to other features within New Jersey Transit Rail Operations, most notably things features like the West Trenton Line (NJ Transit). As User:Mitchazenia pointed out, many railroads had many stations in the same municipalities, and some still do, which is another reason why this rampant renaming campaign should not only not be carried out, but should be completely reverted. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 18:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - I just thought of one other problem this rampant renaming crusade is going to screw up for New Jersey; Union (NJT station). If we go along with Cúchullain's plan, it'll turn into something like Union station (New Jersey), which will give the incorrect impression that it either is or was an actual Union Station. There used to be some distinction between these types of errors. This campaign is destroying that distinction. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 19:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
    • Obviously, other disambiguation would be needed for that one. Union station (NJT) would do it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Still mistaken for a Union Station, and still misuses qualifiers for other structures. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 20:14, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
        • No, not really.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:17, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
          • Actually, it does. Main Line (NJT) = Main Line (NJ Transit), and the same goes for other Main Lines. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 20:27, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

• Keep in mind, I don't think we're going to get past having stuff changed. But, Union station (NJT) is probably the best compromise we're going to come up with. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 21:59, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

• There are plenty of dictionary definition Union Stations in the world. Union (NJT station) never qualified as one. Change the name and people will get the wrong impression. Likewise, Burlington, North Carolina (Amtrak station) has nothing to do with any other Burlington Station, a common name for stations formerly owned by the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 04:16, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

• I think lowercase "station" implies that "station" is not part of the proper name; i.e. it isn't a proper noun in this instance, but a common noun. epicgenius (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Whatever confusion exists with that title comes from the fact that the subject is literally named the Union station.[1] This is not a problem started by the Wikipedia article, but by the subject itself. And that confusion is likely to be minimal and will be cleared up as soon as the reader sees the disambiguation or reads the article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Jeremiah Cox's photo blog is not really a reliable source for these types of things, though. epicgenius (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

That was just the first thing that popped up for me. It does seem to be fairly commonly used, including by the institutions in the community:[2][3]--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of this, since the Union (NJT station) isn't an actual union station, it shouldn't be given that name, especially since we already have qualifiers for real Union Station in the cities they're located in. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 22:23, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

One thing to add that we might want to talk about. This would be a great time to eliminate the NJT thing for New Jersey Transit as far as I am concerned. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 19:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

So, are you saying that the disambiguator should be "New Jersey Transit"? epicgenius (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Yep. I always have preferred spelling out the entire name of the railroad than using initials. I just BOLD-moved Hunter station (New York Central Railroad) yesterday. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 20:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Initials are fine IF they're recognizable to readers. That's often something to decide on a case by case basis. For Atlanta, the system is always referred to as MARTA, meaning "(MARTA)" is the best disambiguator, but I imagine that "(CTA)" confuses a lot of people reading about stations of what's better known as the Chicago "L". Perhaps we could see some evidence about how common or uncommon "NJT" is for New Jersey Transit.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

"NJT" is apparently common enough that, even using an unbiased search, New Jersey Transit shows up as most of the top Google results for "NJT." epicgenius (talk) 21:57, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Common, yes. However, I feel like it would be easier to have a standard of all spelled out names except ones like MARTA and SEPTA. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 22:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

I would think MARTA is fairly easy to recognize, as well as CTA, which controls the Chicago L. You do realize that in places like Chicago and Boston there are stations with the same names on the same line that are on different branches, don't you? You have three different "Harlem Stations," two of which are on the CTA Blue Line. In Boston, you have two "St. Paul Street stations" on the Green Line trolleys, one on the Green Line "B" Branch," and the other on the "C" Branch." They should be left alone, and the ones you messed up shouldn't have been tampered with. The current names are pretty cumbersome, but at least they're precise. As for the renaming of Hunter station, I would've chosen "U&D station" for Ulster and Delaware Railroad myself, but New York Central is good enough. Speaking of former New York Central stations, I spotted station links on the Boston and Albany Railroad and the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad both of which contained redlinks for State Line (NYC station). I had to fix those redlinks so that in the event somebody were to try to make articles on those station, the one for the B&A wouldn't show up on the LS&MS list. I'm really glad you weren't around to take any action against me when I tried to keep an old Louisville and Nashville Railroad depot in Florida from showing up on the NRHP lists in Illinois. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 22:18, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Obviously, Mitch is talking about articles that currently disambiguate by "NJT", not ones that use the line. According to WP:USSTATION, if there are multiple stations of the same name in the same system, disambiguation by line is preferred.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

First, the U&D was eaten by the NYC, so NYC gets priority. Also, Dan, we're not going to stop the changes made to WP:USSTATION, I'm trying to come up with a couple reasonable solutions that would make your life easier. Is there something wrong with something like Merillon Avenue station (Long Island Rail Road) over Merillon Avenue (Long Island Rail Road station)? They give the same exact information in a different way. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 02:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I know I am butting in here, but I think Merillon Avenue station would work just fine, as is Merillon Avenue station (LIRR). We don't really need to spell out the full name IMO, but it may marginally help if readers want more characters to type. The shorter the title, the better. epicgenius (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I understand that NYC acquired U&D, but upon doing so, they also got two Mount Pleasant Railroad stations, one of which is now the Metro-North station you posed at. So we're creating a situation where you can read an aticle on Mineola (LIRR station), and when you want to go to Merillon Avenue (LIRR station) it suddenly becomes Merillon Avenue station?!! Yuck! The Category:Long Island Rail Road stations is going to be a big mess when you people get through with this. Something like Merillon Avenue station (Long Island Rail Road) might be okay, but there's still the issue of Main Line (Long Island Rail Road) and Central Branch (Long Island Rail Road) which also have the same qualifier. I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between the lines and station and junctions. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 13:55, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Personally,, I don't think the LIRR stations or Metro-North stations should be moved at all unless there's consensus at WT:NYCPT. Merillon Avenue (LIRR station) works fine, though. epicgenius (talk) 15:19, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad. I'd also like to remind everybody that New Jersey Transit also falls under the scope of WT:NYCPT. Something I want to make clear to Mitchazenia; I was never against his use of NYC as a qualifier. I just mentioned what I would've chose, in spite of the NYC acquisition of U&D. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 16:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

One thing to keep in mind is that New Yorkers and railbuffs are basically the only people who know what "LIRR" stands for. I'd much rather be content with having all reasonable names spelled out because people aren't going to know NYC, CNJ, PRR, etc without violating COMMONNAME, arguably. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 04:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

One thing I recommend is dropping the qualifier, where possible, for the actual article. So Kaaterskill Junction station (New York Central Railroad) should actually be Kaaterskill Junction station. The only thing worse than not knowing what the abbreviation stands for is not knowing what the full name is, yet having to type the entire thing out. ;) epicgenius (talk) 13:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I still would suggest that those redirect. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 21:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of the stations within the Catskill Mountains, as much as I appreciate User:Cuchullain's recent rename of the other Mount Pleasant Railroad Station (Mount Pleasant (U&D station)) when I click on the S-line at Phoenicia Railroad Station I still end up in Mount Pleasant (Metro-North station). ---------User:DanTD (talk) 05:44, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

@DanTD: No one changed the s-line templates in the individual articles to use the dabbed templates, though the templates themselves were updated to handle the renames. For all that, Cold Brook Railroad Station had been broken for months, if not years. I've fixed it all up. Mackensen (talk) 13:46, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, at least this issue is fixed. Although I tried to fix the s-line templates for Mount Pleasant, New York. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 13:49, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support moving to Orange station (New Jersey). If and when there's an article on the Erie depot, this article would still be the primary topic for Orange station (New Jersey), and the Erie article could be at Orange station (Erie Railroad) or some such. Mackensen (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment - There's something else that should be kept in mind during this fiasco; Not every railroad station in New Jersey is part of New Jersey Transit, and even those that are have distinctions between the standard commuter rail and the Newark Light Rail, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, and River Line (New Jersey Transit). In addition to that, there are two Jersey Avenue stations; One is Jersey Avenue (NJT station) and the other is Jersey Avenue (HBLR station). Also, besides the historic stations, former stations, heritage railroad stations and such, you also have plenty of Port Authority Trans-Hudson station, AirTrain Newark stations, which we don't bother with anymore because they've all been redirected into the article, PATCO Speedline stations, and one SEPTA station. Having said that, there are really very few stations without qualifiers attached to their names right now that I have any problems with. Hoboken Terminal, Secaucus Junction, Newark Broad Street station, Trenton Transit Center, Pennsauken Transit Center, Atlantic City Rail Terminal, they don't bother me. My only problem is Tuckahoe Station, since you also have that other Tuckahoe former New York Central Railroad station on the Harlem Line. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 04:17, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I think we've all kept that in mind; are any of those stations named Orange? Mackensen (talk) 13:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Newark Light Rail has Orange Street (NLR station). HBLR has Martin Luther King Drive (HBLR station) (there are lots of those). Of course that obviously doesn't matter to you because you'll just turn it into another excuse to rename those. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 04:07, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

If by excuse you mean guideline, then yes. In the former case, Orange Street station suggests itself and appears to be unambiguous. As for Martin Luther King Drive, I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion? (Though it would be Martin Luther King Drive station and, again, appears to be unambiguous). Mackensen (talk) 12:10, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I think we've reached the point where I think we're not going to have a consensus right now. Thoughts? Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 18:11, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• I count two supports (plus the nominator), two conditional supports if all other articles are renamed, one support (me) for Orange station (New Jersey), which might well be acceptable to the other supports, and one oppose (DanTD) which isn't grounded in policy and didn't demonstrate an actual problem with the proposed name. If everyone's having second thoughts about the name of New Jersey Transit and the use of abbreviations then that discussion probably needs to happen first. Mackensen (talk) 21:41, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's also clearly obvious that we need a discussion in general of how to deal with this. No one seems to have a clear idea what the naming of articles should be. I personally think Orange station (New Jersey Transit) would be best, but I don't know if this is the right place to deal with it. Mitch32^{(I can have oodles of charm when I want to.)} 22:14, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

There's clear consensus for a move at this point; it's less clear what the move should be. (New Jersey) may be the simplest way forward for whatever articles need disambiguation. I agree that all the articles ought to be moved at once.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:40, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree, too. Who's going to move the articles, though? If we leave some articles at the old naming format and move others, then we'd have an "Amtrak"-style situation where every other article is at the old name. We need to move them as quickly and uniformly as possible, at least for the NJT stations. epicgenius (talk) 02:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

A third party closer will come by and close the RM, eventually. After that, the closer, nominator, or the rest of us can move the rest of the articles. In the future, it would probably be best to do a multi-move for all the related articles so the RM closer can take care of them all.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:09, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Weak Support. Although it doesn't reflect colloquial usage, it does make it easier to search for the article. I think "Orange station (New Jersey)" works fine. If towns have more than one station, it can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. 8bitW (talk) 03:54, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
  • This is one case-by-case basis where there is more than one Orange station in New Jersey. epicgenius (talk) 16:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Allendale station (NJT) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)