Talk:Oran massacre of 1962

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"Background"

Does the actual information about the massacre need to be prefaced by something that states how horrible the French were to Algerians? POV as hell IMO. Imagine a similar background being given on Soviet mass killings. "The Kulaks tried to bla bla bla after that N million died in the holodomor. It is just not done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.8.212 (talk) 21:29, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PC rule X: When Whites/Germans/Christians maltreat non-Whites, non-Christians then it's always an expression of bigotry and cruelty and we have to put the full blame and responsibility on them. If it's the other way round, we don't condemn it, but try to find all kind of excuses for the massacre and violence. --197.228.55.29 (talk) 12:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah poor white male Christians. So opressed in this dark modern times that they have to resort to falsehood. Too bad whining does not count on Wikipedia as an excuse for falsehood.

It is just lame some of IP's were persistently misleading kill count as way over the sourced value... I have described it below.

Numbers

Shouldn't we include the work of Jean-Jacques Jordi, who puts the number of dead at around 360 and the number of missing at the same figure? Especially since many of those who disappeared in the chaos of the immediate post-independence period have never been found (so it is reasonable to assume that they are dead). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.75.84.215 (talk) 21:17, 11 June 2023 (UTC) Please provide sources for the following:[reply]

but ultimately, up to 3,000 people were killed ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› ^{[citation needed]}, for the greater part kidnapped and murdered
in atrocious circumstances. 40   years later, the majority of them are still considered 'missing'.

See WP:Verifiability. Thank you, Tazmaniacs

Ok, someone just had to finally clean the mess with the killed count. The 3000 figure had been taken from the List of events named massacres page on 12:48, 1 June 2007 by IP 199.21.28.13. Unfortunately there was not any source. Initially this list had been only linked under "See also". But then these doubts had arrived. So later someone had added alongside a reference supossedly also linking there. It had just looked like this: "https://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/List_of_massacres".

On 4 November 2012‎ User:Mandsford had added a source to the statement that there were only 95 deaths and just 20 among them were European. It was the Benjamin Stora, Algeria, 1830-2000: A Short History (Cornell University Press, 2004) p105.

On 12 November 2012‎ User:The RedBurn had writen that 3,500 were kidnapped but on the same day deleted that leaving only 453 disappeared. In the meantime at the list page the Oran entry had been deleted, then had reapeared with 95–548 count but finally somehow also has got that 3,500 number... Of course there was no source.

And then had came IP 67.103.38.116 on 25 August 2013. It had deleted a statement that a minority were European and writen that it was a majority. But most importantly it had put 3,500 figure immediately after 95 even before the source that User:Mandsford had given. So it had looked like the 3,500 count was also in that source.

Finally User:Parkwells had came and had copied 3,500 to the "Event" section of this article. But User:Parkwells also had copied the source User:Mandsford had added - which was supposed only for the 95 figure... Until today it was listed two times in the "References" section. User:Parkwells had written "A 2004 history estimated...".

So here is what I did. I have deleted the in fact unsourced 3,500 figure.

Not to mention it was not only unsourced but also we had already other sourced figures which were contradictory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.102.198 (talk) 18:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apparent contradiction

"Although the majority of deaths were European, Algerians were also massacred. Estimates of the death toll are 95 killed (a minority — 20 — of whom were European)..." This would appear to make no sense. Were the majority or only a minority of 20 European?? Chris k (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed this too. It goes from an implied 100% European massacre, to majority, to minority. Can anyone sort this out? - Boneyard90 (talk) 15:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

April 2023

@Antiok 1pie: the claim of 5,000, being 7 times greater than the highest next estimate, is clearly extraordinary.

the 20 estimate was by Georges-Marc Benamou which should not be cited without proper attribution. Sure, but in that case, why didn't you attribute the stupid claim of 5,000?

Also, Jean Monneret claimed 3,000, and not 5,000 (this is highlighted in the note and already covered in the article's body along other claims). M.Bitton (talk) 21:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Monneret estimates 3,000, while Hubell says that 5,000 is the highest estimate. In fact, Monneret's estimate shows that the 5,000 claim is not, as you said, 7 times greater than the highest next estimate and not WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Also, the Hubell source used is high-quality so I see no reason for it to be excluded. Regarding attribution, Benamou's statement (that the official French government's position is that there were only 20 casualties) seems to be outdated. According to a 2022 Politico article: Macron is heading to the city of Oran on Friday after having called earlier in the year for “the massacre” there of “hundreds of Europeans, mostly French citizens,” to be recognized [1]. Antiok 1pie (talk) 22:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hubell (who is not a historian) doesn't estimate anything, she simply put a number and added a note (6) to it (which in fact is wrong and most likely a typo). Your explanation about the lack of attribution doesn't hold much water, especially given your instance that others do so. What Macron and those who have a problem admitting to the genocide that was committed by the French in Algeria think is irrelevant.

The only outdated and contradicted number is the stupid and extraordinary claim of 3,000 (made in 2006). I suggest you have a look at how the subject is covered on the fr.wp. M.Bitton (talk) 22:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably right that it's a typo since I can't find the 5,000 number anywhere else. However, I don't understand how Macron's claim is irrelevant. You added a statement which said (in wikivoice) that the French official estimate is 20. That claim was made in 2018 by Georges-Marc Benamou (also not a historian). However, as of 2022 and as Macron's statement indicates, the French official estimate is 100+, so Benamou's statement is indeed outdated. Btw, the 3,000 victims claim has been reiterated in 2020 (although it seems to be about kidnappings rather than murders per se) so it's definitely not outdated. [2] Antiok 1pie (talk) 18:50, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]