Talk:Operation Ha-Har

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Joseph Tabenkin

Is there a way to condense the size of this picture and have it used in our article? Since Joseph Tabenkin was the officer in charge of operations, I think that it is worthy of having his photograph shown in the article, even though the photo is post-war.

. Will be glad to hear any responses.Davidbena (talk) 12:57, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's now no need to have the image incorporated in this article, since there is now an article on Joseph Tabenkin, which includes the image.Davidbena (talk) 03:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Heally Gross (author)

User:Huldra, can I please ask you why you do not first start a discussion on the Talk-Pages and on the Wikipedia/Reliable sources/Noticeboard before you delete sources? Can you imagine if everyone did what you did, simply because he wasn't sure about the source being reliable or not? Heally Gross is an Israeli author. She happens to be a third generation of writers from her family, having compiled several books. Here is a brief description of her published books (click here), where she writes on places in Israel's modern history, from the foundation of the Modern State of Israel unto the present. She approaches each subject with a critical demeanor, bringing down in her works the archival material from which she draws her information (citing many academic sources). She is also a lecturer. She also has her own YouTube channel which you can see here, and there is a video showing how she interviewed Arab residents of Allar (now Mata, Israel) before publishing her book, which you can see here. See minutes 1:35 - ff. You can see one of her lectures here. The Israel Association of Archiving and Information has published another one of her academic lectures here. One of her books, Adullam: `veshavu banim ligevulam`, Jerusalem 2014, has received a review in the Bakitzur weekly which you can see here, and which weekly publication was itself a question of "reliable source," published by the Mateh Yehuda Regional Council, until you posted a question on the Noticeboard in April of 2017 about its reliability and it was duly confirmed as reliable (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_223#Bakitzur). The Palmach Information Center also mentions her book here. Gross' book, "Adamah Ahuvah" is a vital source for history of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, a plethora of information not easily had elsewhere, and, yet, you deleted the well-sourced material in the article Jab'a and this article taken from her book. To impress upon you how well renowned of an author she is in Israeli circles, look at the collection of books on her name at the Hebrew University library in Jerusalem (click here). I suggest that you start a query on the aforementioned Noticeboard about the reliability of the current works by the author Heally Gross. I will restore the edits that you have deleted after 24-hours and will hope that you will inquire about the WP:RS on the proper venue before deleting in the future.Davidbena (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Davidbena As I am sure you know, there is a myriad of sources, even in English, about the 1948 war. You said nothing about her qualification, (sorry, being a third generation of writer isn't a qualification). Does she have a phD in a relevant field? Say, political science, history, etc? If not, she probably isn't acceptable as a RS in this area, Huldra (talk) 23:44, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have her e-mail address, I can ask her. Notwithstanding, this does not excuse your deletion of well-sourced material before going before the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. You have been very disruptive.00:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I also doubt the reliability of these sources. Since Gross only publishes in Hebrew, it's difficult to search for information, but I cannot find anything that would lead to an assumption of reliability. I cannot find any evidence that Gross is a recognized expert in history or any related field. I cannot even find the publisher for her work - only one of her books is listed in WorldCat, with the publisher unhelpfully listed as "Israel." The "review" of Adullam is a shallow and fawning essay, and I afford it no weight. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:13, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's policy is to accept foreign publication, but to provide translations of the texts if called upon. Perhaps you can direct your question to an Administrator here in Israel, and there are a number of those. Perhaps User:Avraham, though semi-retired from conflict areas, can help us here. He is an Administrator and he lives in Israel. Davidbena (talk) 03:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exclude. I find no indication that Heally Gross is a reliable source or academic. Nowhere is she quoted or cited; her works appear self-published and not held by libraries or booksellers. Softlavender (talk) 06:23, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Hebrew University library (Where her books can be found as you can see here) not a library? If I might add one more thing, Heally Gross's seminal work, Adamah Ahuvah (translated as: "Beloved Land"), does indeed have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, as most of her quotes are taken from historical war records contained at the Yad Tabenkin (Tabenkin Memorial) in Ramat Ef'al. Their web-page (in Hebrew) is seen here. See also a list of their collections here: Tzur, Ze'ev (1980). "The Archive of the Kibbutz Hameuhad Movement at Yad Tabenkin". Cathedra: For the History of Eretz Israel and Its Yishuv. 14: 203–206. Retrieved 26 July 2018 – via JSTOR. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |registration= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help). Bear in mind that their field of expertise is in the History of the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) and its "Yishuv", meaning, Jewish settlement during the Ottoman period and during the period of the British Mandate over Palestine. One of the criterion for identifying Reliable sources is that her material can be fact checked, per WP:QUESTIONED. While User:Softlavender, without actually looking at this work, has taken a hard line, other Wikipedia editors have have taken a more conciliatory approach. The books' inner cover lists the Publishing House as: "Israelim" - whose web-page is www.Israel-im.co.il . Three of her books' publications (including Adamah Ahuvah) have been funded by the Mateh Yehuda Regional Council here, in Israel, and freely distributed among the Jewish collective farms and settlements in the Jerusalem / Adullam / Beit Lachish region.Davidbena (talk) 10:02, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no requirement to obtain pre-clearance before a WP:RS can be added to wikipedia. On the contrary, the onus is on the parties challenging the reliability of the RS to take it to Reliable Sources and obtain a consensus that the source is not. Massive deletions by any such parties are destructive and could lead to a block down the line. XavierItzm (talk) 20:57, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is being discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. FYI, Heally Gross is a self published author, with (AFAIK) only Batchelor degree, Huldra (talk) 21:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Excision of Sourced Material from Zvi Dror's book

User:Huldra, can I ask you why you felt it necessary to excise the following passage taken from Zvi Dror's book, Har’el: Palmach brigade in Jerusalem:

In mid-October 1948, the Har’el Brigade published a combat ordinance, which read: "The enemy is planning to cut-off the well-springs of immigration and [Jewish] settlement, to build a nest of war conspiracies against us and against all those who love peace in the world, to cut-off from Israel the Negev; to inflict harm to the capital, the center of yearnings of the generations of Israel; to subjugate the Hebrew element of Jerusalem; to dismantle Jewish industry; to block-off the sea; to deny the independence of Haifa and its port. These schemes will be eradicated on the battlefield."^[1] (END QUOTE)? After all, the passage is not taken from Heally Gross' book. Would you have any objections to the edit being restored?

References

^ Har’el: Palmach brigade in Jerusalem, Zvi Dror (ed. Nathan Shoḥam), Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishers: Benei Barak 2005, p. 267 (Hebrew)

--Davidbena (talk) 01:53, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Davidbena I cannot see that this as a RS, I have started a discussion on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, Huldra (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fine.Davidbena (talk) 18:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality dispute

Can someone here please tell me what are the current disputes regarding NPOV? Please be specific and provide sources. In the absence of a response I plan on removing the tag, as this article merely outlines systematic war operations in the space of a few days, when the operation was suddenly halted. If there is a need for adding more information, please provide a list of the type of information demanded.Davidbena (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, did not notice this before now. I have restarted a RS discussion, see here. In view of Tom Segev's review in Haaretz, see here, I dont see how we can have the Zvi Dror book as a RS in this article, Huldra (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Segev gave a fair review of Zvi Dror's book, and he mostly praised Zvi Dror as an ideologist in the ranks of the Palmmach. His work is, perhaps, one of the best documentaries of this short operation, and as Tom Segev states: "Dror takes pains to state that 'Harel' is not a scholarly study, although he made extensive use of documents, including letters, diaries, memoirs and oral testimony from brigade veterans who are still alive. The result is an important, very readable book about people who were fighting a war that is described here as if it were an extended teenage adventure. The depictions of the battles do not interest Dror too much, and he focuses instead on the personalities and motives of the soldiers. This is an interesting and justified approach because the Palmach was a very ideological and a very political army." I see no reason why his testimony cannot be used in this important article. A writer's literary style should not be used against him, so long as he sticks to the facts, without deviating from them.Davidbena (talk) 16:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[beneibarak2005-1] Har’el: Palmach brigade in Jerusalem, Zvi Dror (ed. Nathan Shoḥam), Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishers: Benei Barak 2005, p. 267 (Hebrew)

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