Talk:Oliver's Army

Comments

This article needs plenty of work, perhaps not enough to mark for cleanup, but it needs it nonetheless. User: Evil Therapist 4:29 A.M. 3 August 2005

Ummm... Is the release date accurate worldwide, or just in the U.S.? I believe it was released in the U.K. before the U.S.--Artzilla 02:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Deleted the nonsense about the "All it takes is an itchy trigger etc." being a reference to the oppression of the Irish people etc. This stuff seemed totally POV, unless you can find a source for all that chat it should stay out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP (talk • contribs) 18:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Surely "Oliver's Army" is a reference to Oliver Cromwell's New Model Army? The song is full of military references, so what's all this stuff about unemployment and Oliver Twist? When he's talking about being "out of work" then going "to Johannesburg" I have always presumed this was a reference to the mercenaries prevalent in southern Africa at the time. This needs checking and citations. Mrstonky (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Tried a bit of tidying up, but I have no reference for the title, so that remains tagged as uncited. --DaveG12345 (talk) 23:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

There are many sources but Frith's 1982 remark quoted in that 1993 The Independent article seems typical and was contemporary. There have been literally hundreds since then. Also the previous (misplaced?) fact tag seemed to suggest that the New Model Army was not a forerunner of the modern British Army, when it certainly was. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Elvis costello armed forces 1.jpg

The image Image:Elvis costello armed forces 1.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --11:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

"snapshop"?

Is "snapshot" meant? AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

"typically conservative BBC Radio 2"

Removed as citation not forthcoming. Radio 2 has not been considered conservative for years now. Maybe still has many conservative listeners, but overall the demographic is far more balanced nowadays. Station was revamped during 1990's and is far more mainstream, even musically edgy now in many ways. Describing it as conservative is very outdated.

Given that they censor the word 'ass' in the Scouting For Girls song 'Heartbeat', I would say they are conservative. I will attempt to cite the statement and re-instate it. They're also inconsistent because they don't censor 'pissing' or 'faggot' in other songs. They have also never played the Sex Pistols during the day. Tom Green (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually that is unusual given the controversy that use of the word nigger usually causes. I also notice the Wigger article says that the reason for the use in this song is unknown. I know this counts as original research, but I found this and guess Costello was possibly eluding to the exploitation of young white men who were seen as cannon fodder. Bootlegbobby (talk) 12:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

In fairness, I may have misconstrued your use of the word conservative - I thought you were talking about the main outlook and playlist of the station itself, rather than their censorship policies. In this regard, they are bound by British and BBC broadcast guidelines, although you guys above are obviously drawing attention to inconsistencies in their application. James Balti 13:45, 15 January 2010

Hong Kong?

When, exactly, was Hong Kong a "trouble spot"? Removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.171 (talk) 16:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think 'Hong Kong is up for grabs' references the seizure of Hong Kong as a result of the Opium Wars. I don't know how live an issue 1997 - the expiration of the colony's lease was at the time the song released.Cloptonson (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, it was pretty live, I'd say.Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Overcomplicating things a bit

It surprises me how often Wiki entries overcomplicate things - particularly song lyrics - by attributing specific meanings, which are best kept ambiguous.

While the "Oliver's Army" is undoubtedly a reference to Oliver Cromwell, and to the New Model Army - it should be no means be seen as an "anti-occupation" anthem (in a Northern Irish context "Troops Out" is a more accurate label anyway).

The song mentions issues around the world and alludes to places in recent and not so recent history where the British Army have been involved for reasons which may be good or not so good, and which may or may not be understood - but seem invariably to involve fresh-faced young working class men, going willingly yet naively about their business to kill people or perhaps be killed themselves. The judgements are entirely left to the listener, and as with most Costello lyrics, the ambiguity in the words is deliberate :

Hong Kong is up for grabs - a reference to the end of the 100 year lease of Hong Kong to Britain by China in 1999 - at that time an unknown future,

London is full of Arabs - often heard on the streets - Loads of money, which they spent on arms - witness Rock the Kasbah by the Clash (and the present day turmoil in Libya & Bahrain). British troops not especially involved at the time - but they were involved in Aden no long before that.

To me the song epitomises the late 70s - it questions - but does not answer - the long running troubles in Ireland, the continued role of British troops as defenders of the Empire - despite there being no Empire left to defend - and at the end of it all - the poor bloody infantry - the White Niggers - are the ones who are left to do the dirty work or die if need be, 78.32.193.115 (talk) 16:28, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

It's quite obviously about the British Army --- the creation of Oliver Cromwell --- and the north of Ireland. "White nigger" has been a common term for Irish people for decades; a near-contemporary usage of that term was behind a political scuffle detailed here http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/white-nigger-denial-poses-a-real-dilemma-26228648.html for example. It has nothing to do with the "poor bloody infantry" who after all are the ones with the "itchy triggers" throughout British imperial history.

You must mean itchy trigger "fingers". But where does Mr Churchill come in to all this? (and which one). Martinevans123 (talk) 08:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Under-complicating maybe

I'm not really convinced it has anything to do with the New Model Army as such. It seems pretty clearly to be about Private Military Companies (mercenaries) - sending someone to Johannesburg, for instance - SA was and is a common entry point into Africa for PMCs and somewhere to raise materiel and finance for operations. The reference to Mr Churchill's ear is presumably a shorthand for contacts between politicians and PMCs. The choice of Oliver might well have been inspired by Cromwell and the NMA - perhaps the lyrics went through numerous changes but it was convenient to stick with Oliver.Halsbury (talk) 14:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

You may well be right. But who are we to argue with Professor Frith? As in all wikipedia articles, our aim, it seems, is not to try and establish "the truth" about what the lyrics do or do not mean, but simply to report accurately, from verifiable sources, the comments made by others about them. But you make a very valid point - encyclopaedias aren't that keen on ambiguity, are they? Poetry in general is difficult to get to grips with. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:26, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Martinevans is correct that you should cite reliable sources. Reading something about Oliver Cromwell's Irish campaign or Elvis Costello wouldn't hurt, either. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

"White nigger"

The article states the song contains the phrase "white nigger", but I contend it actually includes the phase "one less-white nigger", as in someone being less white than someone else is a cause for hate.

You would need a reference to support that per Wikipedia:No original research. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 14:09, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

The lyrics have the phrase "one less white nigger", obviously. However, do you have a reference for the hyphenation? "One less white nigger" could also refer to the Irish, as the Blacks of the UK (to use a phrase from Alasdair MacIntyre), I speculate. Revelling in ambiguity is as common as salt, after T. S. Eliot. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

of COURSE that's what it means. one less white nigger is him sarcastically saying how a dead irishman is no big deal. the other posters above must not be native speakers. 173.9.95.217 (talk) 20:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

In this song, white niggers means working-class Britons working as soldiers and in high-risk security work in troubled parts of the world. Jim Michael (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The song overall has that sense, but "white nigger" is specifically in the line about said soldiers being trigger-happy along the "Murder Mile" (Northern Ireland). The LOCALS are the ones getting shot, not the soldiers! 209.172.25.74 (talk) 01:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The "murder mile" was a reference to Ledra Street in Nicosia, which was still fresh in the memory in the late 1970s. Almost 400 British servicemen were killed there. My assumption is that Costello was making a reference to the perception of Irish soldiers as expendable. There's a similar sentiment in Braveheart ("the dead cost nothing"). -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 19:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:RS where Costello says that "murder mile" was a reference to Ledra Street in Nicosia? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

The lyrics don't mention Cyprus, so it seems to be speculation. Although EC said that seeing soldiers in NI was his inspiration, the lyrics don't mention NI either. Jim Michael (talk) 19:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Indeed there is no mention of Cyprus in Costello's Unfaithful Music & Disappearing Ink, well not in the 2015 edition anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

ABBA

A documentary on ABBA presented Elvis Costello stating that Oliver's Army's Rachmaninov-like flourishes were inspired by ABBA's Benny Anderson. (It had similar declarations of love from Johnny Rotten, etc.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Seems ABBA also feature in his own encyclopedia: [1]. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

He recorded "Like An Angel Passing Through My Room" in 2000/01, in Stockholm, with Benny on piano: [2] and has performed, on at least 10 occasions, '"Knowing Me, Knowing You". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Oliver .......

I always assumed that "Oliver's Army" were the ANC, led by Oliver Tambo. Thegraciousfew (talk) 17:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I suppose that would certainly fit with last word of the song - Johannesburg. But the preceding travelogue of "interesting places to see around the world" perhaps suggest that the song is primarily more about the British Army and the remnants of colonialism? Winston Churchill also had links to South Africa in his early career of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

"Mr. Churchill's ear"

Is it possible this is a reference to Oliver Churchill? Zhumadian (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

It's certainly possible, I guess. Especially as there appear to be no sources providing anything approaching a definitive answer as to what EC intended. But it seems unlikely, since although Oliver Churchill was an Army major, he was an intelligence expert and would have little influence in getting anything "arranged" after just a word in his ear. He really was on the front line, sometimes even dropped behind it. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Confusing lyrics

What is the (intended) meaning of: "We could be in Palestine, overrun by the Chinese line"? China hasn't been involved in the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Jim Michael (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

he's just running thru a checklist of places. we could be in palestine...or overrun by the chinese line somewhere ELSE...or...or..." 66.30.47.138 (talk) 23:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

ABBA = "manna from heaven"?

I have removed a line linking to this Guardian article which claims Costello "once admitted he viewed Dancing Queen as 'manna from heaven'." The text in the Guardian article links to this website, which doesn't mention ABBA at all, and quotes Costello using the term "manna from heaven" to describe a completely different song by Wings. Seems like the Guardian journalist got his research mixed up. TremorMilo (talk) 14:30, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

How strange. The actual NME article states "I know more of his music than cynical people might expect. Sean. When we first went to America and it was Foreigner and Journey and all that layered, sugary, anthemic shite, Wings' stuff like 'With A Little Luck' or 'Dancing Queen' was like manna from heaven." for some reason the Giles article on ultimateclassic is different to his article on 107.3popcrush which is a mirror so not sure when it was changed. An archive post on the forum actually suggests it was part of the article at the time. So... at some point in the last year Giles has gone back and removed it from his own article on one page only despite it being in the NME as a direct quote? Anyway I will replace the source with inline attribution to NME. Koncorde (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Radio-friendly version

I've just heard this song on a local BBC Radio station, and the final two lines of verse two were "Called careers information / Have you got yourself an occupation?" There's no mention of this in the "Background" section. I've had a look online and a few lyric sites have this version: there's also this page, which seems legit, but it's a blog so possibly not usable as a reliable source. Does anyone have anything more reliable about this "clean" version? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry are you saying they censored the second verse by repeating the lines from the first verse? Koncorde (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Yup. I even listened back to it online - definitely no mention of the N-word. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

So what is it we want to say? There have been a variety of censored versions over the years though most broadcast it without censoring the word in question. I'm not sure anyone is going to document them. Koncorde (talk) 17:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Your second sentence ("There have been a variety...") would probably work at the end of the"Background" section - although I'm hesitant to add anything without a supporting citation. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 18:39, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

The closest you get is something like this from Salon which isj't really about the different ways it has been censored and more about criticism when it is censored. Koncorde (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Video director

Release section: 'A music video directed by Chuck Slatter for "Oliver's Army" was released to accompany the song'. The correct spelling of the director's surname is Statler: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14696130/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_12 https://pleasekillme.com/chuck-statler/ Robert P Connolly (talk) 15:25, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

You Have It All Wrong

The song makes perfect sense when you think about South Africa, the aftermath of the Boer War, and F.S. Oliver. The song takes place when Winston Churchill became Assistant Secretary of State for the Colonies (#2) in 1921, "white niggers" refer to the Dutch Boer enemy, and when the Colonial Office, through its emigration office, was actively recruiting the English to the colonies to alleviate unemployment. Please read about "Milner's Kindergarten" on Wikipedia. Lord Milner (talk) 06:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

The song makes perfect sense without any of that because it specifically and unambiguously references what it is on about in its lyrics, and Costello has repeatedly explained or expounded upon it for the last 45 years. Koncorde (talk) 13:07, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Glad to say there is no mention of this song at Milner's Kindergarten. Even if "we" have it "all wrong"... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2022 (UTC)