Talk:Olive oil/Archive 2

Main producing countries

Can the market section at the beginning be moved or combined with the global consumption / global market section. Perhaps it could be clarified with current figures (e.g. http://www.internationaloliveoil.org/web/aa-ingles/corp/AreasActivitie/economics/economics-oliveOilFigures.html ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.186.122.229 (talk) 01:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The section "Global market: The main producing countries are:" lists countries whose production stats are given as nil. Can this be clarified, or corrected. 217.44.210.7 (talk) 13:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Those countries do have significant consumption, and I have changed the text above the table to reflect that. Grafen (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Though Greece is not the first (it's third in the rank) and not even the best quality oil producer, this section is mainly dedicated to Greece, with o references. This seems an unjustified advertisement for Greek oil. You should reference or correct this section, or delete it. (Eschatos1 (talk) 18:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC))

According to Hippocrates, Greek Olive Oil dates back thousands of years and is mentioned by Homer. Some of the Olive trees in Greece have been dated at over 3000 years old. According to scientists the first olive cultivation worldwide took place in the Hellenic Republic and began on Crete in 3500BCE.60.231.39.77 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Olive oil producers and marketers from Greece were among the more than 700 contestants from all over the world that participated in the New York International Olive Oil Competition last week. Greek brands won two Gold awards and thirteen Silver in the 24 award categories They did not manage to receive a “Best of Class” distinction given to the top scoring oil in each category. The most awards in the competition were garnered by Italy, Spain and the USA with a total of 83, 51 and 36 prizes respectively.

For Greece, the two Gold awards were earned by Olea Juice and AiQ 0,5, two products that are made from olives of the Koroneiki and Manaki varieties. They are considered gourmet olive oils sold in delis and specialized stores. AiQ Executive Director Aris Xenofos told Agrotypos agricultural news portal, “Olive oils that excel in competitions like this become widely known and are highly appreciated by consumers and chefs worldwide.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.231.39.77 (talk) 06:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Fat Composition

This table is very misleading. Olive oil contains only very low proportions of the compounds listed, certainly not in the 20-60% range as stated. Whoever included this table has no conception of the chemical composition of olive oil, and the table should be removed or revised immediately. The point is that the major constituents are triglyceride esters (as correctly noted further down the page). These compounds can be regarded as reaction products between glyceryl and fatty acids (fats). Presumably the 'Fat Composition' refers to the the proportion of combined fats rather than to free fats: this should be made clear in the main article. Andrew Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.50.77 (talk) 09:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Olive Oil Fraud - Disgusting adulterant: what is it?

I just ran into two bottles of "olive oil" in a row from two different Italian sources (Capatriti, Wal-Mart store brand) with the same disgusting property: about half an hour after eating, while the food itself was still in the stomach, the larger part of the "olive oil" had made its way all the way to the end of the gastrointestinal tract and was ready to ooze out unaltered in a most repellent fashion. While I haven't actually done any tests for adulteration, I don't believe that could happen if it was cut with any normal vegetable oil - I think we're talking about something like mineral oil that doesn't even have a carboxy group on the end of it to catch on a bile salt. I've since switched back to an old brand that is bottled in the U.S. from Spanish oil and luckily never saw the flag of Italy darken the horizon, and that seems to have fixed the problem for now (and as a bonus, it even has a nice olive smell and taste...), but what is this crap? Wnt (talk) 06:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

N.B. For what it's worth the refrigeration test mentioned in the article actually did distinguish between these: after three days, the Capatriti formed only a haze at the bottom, the Wal-Mart nearly congealed but had some loose liquid at top, but the Pompeiian was so solid it took half a minute under the hot water to get any liquid at all. Wnt (talk) 12:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Pretty weird. Sounds like the kind of GI symptoms that you get from consuming foods cooked in olestra. Not sure what your adulterant might be though. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting discussion, but doesn't belong here. See WP:Talk: "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject...." --macrakis (talk) 07:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I'd add some information about it to the article, once I know what to look up... Wnt (talk) 09:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Note: I just added to Olive oil regulation and adulteration a description of adulteration with actual mineral oil from 1887, and detailed the test to determine this at the time, but that was strictly a wild guess on my part. I'd rather enter detailed information about something that I know is relevant to modern times. Wnt (talk) 09:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

From reading a book dedicated to olive oils, it seems most of the olive oil in the USA is a blend of olive oils and something else. The wikipedia article at Olive_oil_regulation_and_adulteration describes olive oil fraud situations as does the book "Extra Virginity- The Sublime and Scandalous World of Olive Oil" by Tom Mueller. A better description of the home refrigeration test is needed along with temperatures at which various oils and olive oil solidifies. That way, armed with a thermometer, various brands of oils can be tested by consumers and opinions expressed on consumer forums. Without temperatures, one can only observe as the oil is cooled various percentages that solidify out of solution. I had a 3 liter bottle of "Members Mark" olive oil from Sam's Club (a USA warehouse shopping club); Members Mark is the store brand oil from Sam's Club (Wal-Mart). It took about 2 weeks to test the oil. I then moved it to a standalone small spare refrigerator in the garage. More or less, about every half day, I would adjust turn the temperature down a small amount as well as look at the clear plastic bottle. My goal was to cause different oils to solidify out of solution; if it was 100% olive oil, then I expected all of the oil should congeeal at the same time. About ten percent of the oil solidified out of solution and as the temperature continued to go down and this separated quantity was stable as the temperature declined. About 40% solified out of solution at another lower temperature. By this time, it was pretty hard to visually estimate the percentage so I stopped the testing. So, my guess is that Sam's Club sells "olive oil" that is apparently a blend of olive oil mixed with non-olive oils of significantly differing solidification temperatures. My opinion then is that the house branded Sam's Club olive oil is not 100% olive oil. It has a nice green color, but can be done with colourants.AnimeJanai (talk) 07:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC) MartiniShaw (talk) 00:42, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

'Winterisation'

I have not found anything in the main item on the topic of 'winterisation' as part of the processing of olive oil. I became aware of this process, applied to 'extra virgin' oil after buying some olive oil from the local supermarket which did not have the characteristics I am used to in olive oil.

I habitually keep oil in the fridge at a temp of about 5 to 8 C and at this temp olive oil characteristically becomes cloudy and precipitates a layer of pasty material which settles to the bottom of the bottle. The deposit melts and clears again when the oil is warmed to room temp. This behaviour is quoted as a distinctive property of olive oil in 'Textbook of Pharmacognosy' TE Wallis, Churchill Ltd, London, 1962. It is caused by the presence, as a natural constituent, of high-melting point esters among the normal mixture of compounds in the oil.

But my latest bottle remains perfectly clear (with the usual yellow-green colouration), and this lead me initially to suspect that this is not olive oil at all and is being sold fraudulently.

But after doing some internet research, I came across a 'Freezing Olive Oil' page, and I now think that it is likely that the oil has been 'winterised' - i.e. chilled, and the liquid part poured off for sale, the semi-solid deposit being discarded. This is supposed to result in a more aesthetically appealing product.

http://www.oliveoilsource.com/olive_chemistry_freezing.htm

I am not certain about the status of oil which has been treated in this way. It seems to me that if an oil is marketed that does not contain all of the usual constituents of olive oil in the normal range of proportions it cannot properly be called 'olive oil' at all, let alone 'extra virgin'. Some comment on this might be appropriate in the main article.

Andrew Smith

Thank you for sharing this bit of information with us. I personally don't have a need for cooking oils at home. One day, I bought a new pan, and decided to "season" it according to the instructions. As I don't need a huge bottle of oil, I bought the smallest bottle on the shelf of my local store, which is labelled as
"GEM Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Cold Pressed" (8.5 fl oz, UPC ₀41618 08020₆).

Like yourself, I keep my bottle in the refrigerator, and just like one of your bottles, mine also displayed a coagulated property, eventually becoming so solidified that I became concerned if it would be extractable, or if it was going bad. Right now, I have a glass and funnel in my refrigerator into which I’m running the contents through a coffee filter. So far, the oil collected in the glass is liquid, and the thick part appears to remain in the filter. When I wash the oil bottle, I’m going to repeat the filtration before returning the oil to the bottle. To me, this is somewhat suggestive of the curds and whey of milk. If anyone can provide further insight as to what’s being observed, your input would be of value to the article.

Christopher, Salem, OR (talk) 07:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Composition

'Olive oil is composed mainly of the mixed triglyceride esters of oleic acid and palmitic acid and of other fatty acids..'

This sentence is incompatible with the 'Fat Composition' table which indicates high proportions of fatty acids. Please clarify whether the major constituents of olive oil are fatty acids or triglyceride esters.

Is olive oil a medium-chain triglyceride? The entry for medium-chain triglyceride (MCT) does not answer this question, nor does this entry for olive oil. Because MCTs are widely believed to be very good for body health, the answer to the question posed here should be accessible somewhere that has some degree of reliability. ROzziemaland (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Andrew Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.50.77 (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

You have encountered some slightly sloppy (from the chemistry standpoint) terminology usually used by nutritionists: because all fats are glyceryl triacylates (medical types like to call them triglycerides, as if there were three glycerin moities in the molecule, instead of only one with three fatty acid moities) which are readily saponified by the human body, the composition is usually expressed in terms of the fatty acids which result from saponification of the fat. — Jay L09 (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Fatty acid composition is a standard for describing vegetable oil. "Triglyceride" is also used in the industry because it is less of a mouthful. The great sin in this table is the fatty acid composition of fully hydrogenated oils. The listings for soy and palm are just plain wrong. The fully hydrogenated forms of these oils have huge saturated percentages and little to no monounsaturated fatty acids. If they have significant monounsaturated acids then they aren't fully hydrogenated. The 18:1, 2 and 3's will be hydrogenated to the point where they almost all become C18:0. The degree of hydrogenation of an oil is determined by chemically mimicking the hydrogenation process. Instead of using hydrogen to break double bonds, iodine is used in a wet process. The iodine is then assayed to numerically describe the number of double bonds that the hydrogenation process has not yet broken. Monounsaturated means that a fatty acid has one remaining double bond that has not been hydrogenated. Only when the practically all of those bonds have been broken by adding hydrogen can an oil be called fully hydrogenated. Whoever made this table must have misunderstood a reference.74.241.45.116 (talk) 03:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Tree density

I was originally going to fold in properly the info on tree density, but realized it would be more appropriate in Olive, so I mentioned it on Talk:Olive#Tree_density. --Ronz (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

When should you NOT use Olive oil for frying ?

I keep seeing mixed reviews about the subject. Can someone point to a WP:RS so we could add it to the article ? Talgalili (talk) 09:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

You should NOT use olive oil when a salesman working for another edible oil industry is watching you. — Jay L09 (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Oils should not be used above their "smoke points". There are canola and safflower oils, for example, that can go 100 degrees higher, at least according to this page, and should be used instead of olive oil for frying. http://www.lakewinds.com/store/Cooking-Oil-Temperatures-and-Proper-Usage-W1147C10528.aspx It's interesting that the temperature cited in the Wiki article is 420°F, however the reference reads 325°F 98.210.208.107 (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

What does "extra virgin" actually mean?

The words are used, but not defined. (Or if it is, I missed it.) --Billpg (talk) 19:10, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Never been kissed ?Eregli bob (talk) 13:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Virgin Olive Oils: The oil obtained from the fruit of the olive exclusively with mechanical processes and other physical processes, in conditions that do not cause alternations in the oil, and which have not undergone any treatment apart from washing, decantation, centrifugation and filtration, excluding oils obtained with solvents or with chemical or biochemical reagents or with processes of reesterification or any mixture with oils of other nature. —European Union Law 1513/2001

There's also EU Directive 796, passed in 2002, which sets out quality requirements for each grade of oil. AnimeJanai (talk) 08:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

the artical says it cant have over 0.8 of acidity, and here in portugal the limit is actually o.7 acidity. care to check that again? also, in cosmetical use, you forgot to mention it is frequently used on the hair. oh, and that it's also used for preserves (rubbing cheese and smocked saussage with olive oil to prevent the growth of fungus/ to botle goat cheese in olive oil with herbs)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.102.107.203 (talk) 00:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC) 

I always thought it meant "from the first pressing", but the article makes reference to "mechanical pressing only" which doesn't conform to the Latin. Am I just wrong? ▫ Urbane Legend ^chinwag 01:16, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

The meaning of technical terms isn't generally exactly predictable from etymology. --Macrakis (talk) 10:33, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Regarding 'Retail grades in IOOC member nations'

I've found much of the wording in this section is copied verbatim from Olive Oil Source' product grade definitions page. My Wikipedia editing knowledge is rusty and I've forgotten where to draw the line between citation and plagiarism, so I'm tossing the info on here for more experienced folks to deal with. Teceangl (talk) 11:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Previous USDA Ratings

While cleaning up the current USDA grading reference, I noticed that the reference to the old ratings is the same. Did I overlook something, or did someone confuse the two some time ago? --Ronz (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The USDA placed the new grading reference in the location of the old one, so it isn't the fault of any editor.

I cannot find documentation on the older USDA ratings to rectify this. --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Maintenance templates for sections

Too many banners in the article per WP:Overtagging. Anyone else who feels the same should feel free to remove them or restore my edit. Lambanog (talk) 17:25, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

They've been there since July 2010, so I don't think there's much opposition to them. They definitely all apply, and are helpful in identifying specific problems in this lengthy article. --Ronz (talk) 17:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Production

I removed the material from the lede on varieties and production to a new section for expansion. --Ronz (talk) 17:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Health and teaspoons

The health label appears to say vaguely "you do not increase fat consumption by doing it". Does it mean it would be healthier to have ZERO consumption of fat? (including olive's) --194.219.131.162 (talk) 21:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

no definition for "virgin olive oil"

There's no non-circular definition of the term "virgin olive oil" in this article; what the heck is it? Make sure to define it before using the term elsewhere in the article. philiptdotcom (talk) 06:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Are there any bad health consequences?

This article has no information at all on if there are any bad effects on health from regularly consuming moderate and large amounts of olive oil. If there are any, can they be added to the article? For example, would it increase the risk of heart disease or increase the amount of fatty tissue surrounding the heart? Wsmss (talk) 18:58, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Properties - Comparison

It will be helpful if the properties are arranged as a comparison table for the different types of Olive oils, like below.

Comparative properties of common cooking fats (per 100g)

	Total Fat	Saturated Fat	Monounsaturated Fat	Polyunsaturated Fat	Smoke Point
Extra-virgin olive oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
Virgin olive oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
Pure olive oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
Olive oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
Olive pomace oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
Refined olive oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
U.S. Extra Virgin Olive Oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
U.S. Virgin Olive Oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
U.S. Olive Oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx
U.S. Refined Olive Oil	100g	xxx	xxx	xxx	xxx

Anish Viswa 04:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Whilst we are comparing oilve oil to other oils can we also include a) coconut oil and b)safflower oil? [User:phronima.au]

What would be the point of this table? I doubt there is any significant difference among EVOO/VOO/OO/ROO/PO in saturated fat content, compared to the (small) natural variation among individual oils (by variety, by region, by ripeness at harvest, etc.). Smoke point is presumably higher in the more-refined oils. --Macrakis (talk) 12:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

File:European-olive-oils.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Criminal trade with illegal olive oil

There is a big trade with illegal olive oil, could be mentioned. --Mats33 (talk) 23:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Some of the various olive oil fraud trade is described in the book "Extra Virginity- The Sublime and Scandalous World of Olive Oil" by Tom Mueller. The book has a lot of info about fradulent olive oil and of past accusations and convictions of olive oil companies.AnimeJanai (talk) 08:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Potential refs

Moved from Further reading:

• Cicerale, S. et al. “Biological Activities of Phenolic Compounds Present in Virgin Olive Oil”, International Journal of Molecular Sciences (2010),11(2):458-79.
• Fitó, M. et al. “Bioavailability and antioxidant effects of olive oil phenolic compounds in humans: a review”, Annali dell'Istituto Superiore di Sanità (2007),43(4):375-381.

--Ronz (talk) 23:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible copyvio

New addition, which frankly, looked almost too good to be true for an addition from a new editor, looks like it came from here and was just ref formatted for wikipedia. I have removed it. Yobol (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

About "Unique extra virgin olive oils" POV

Why only Greek oils? The text does not explain any reason for only listing such oils - and any such reason would require a proper reference. What's the point in listing such oils at all on the Wikipedia page? In all fairness, I'm Italian, but I don't think my point is less valid.--Blaisorblade (talk) 13:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, it does not represent a worldwide view on the topic, and if it did, it would be incredibly long listing that bordered on spam. The lack of reference is just a cherry on top. Removed. Pro crast in a tor (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Overblown

... an endless source of fascination and wonder and the fountain of great wealth and power.

— This prose must have been squeezed from purple olives. Sca (talk) 12:33, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Removal of unsourced paragraph

The first paragraph of Eastern Mediterranean history has been unsourced for over a year. Are there any objections to its removal? Mind my edits (talk) 21:08, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Composition vague

Constituents section just says "Olive oil is composed mainly of the mixed triglyceride esters of oleic acid and palmitic acid and of other fatty acids, along with traces of squalene (up to 0.7%) and sterols (about 0.2% phytosterol and tocosterols). The composition varies by cultivar, region, altitude, time of harvest, and extraction process."

Can we have some typical % of oleic and palmitic acid perhaps with ranges from various sources or of various grades ? preferably with some reliable sources identified ? - Rod57 (talk) 01:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Found some : olive oil source has ranges of % with references so have used it for initial table. Also found an academic source that confirms %. Could add % for different grades etc as extra columns ?

[1] has data on 572 Italian olive oils.

Variability of fatty acid composition in olive (Olea europaea L.) progenies has data on 3 Spanish varieties (‘Arbequina’, ‘Frantoio’ and ‘Picual’) and their crossbreeds.

[2] has similar for Iranian crop. - Rod57 (talk) 01:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Comparision table should be split out

The comparision table (under culinary use) comparing composition of different vegetable oils should be separated out into its own article - perhaps vegetable oils composition or vegetable oils comparision ? We wouldn't want to repeat this table in each of 20+ vegetable oil articles; a similar table is in safflower oil. - Rod57 (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Density at 20 °C or 15.5 °C?

"Specific gravity at 20 °C 0.9150–0.9180 (@ 15.5 °C)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darsie42 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I found "The density of olive oil at 20 degrees Celsius is 7.6 pounds per U.S. gallon" in United States Department of Agriculture: "Grading Manual for Olive Oil and Olive-Pomace Oil" and put that in the infobox (converted to kg/m3). Darsie42 (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

"Health Damages" section

I removed this section as the content does not have anything to do with the heading UKWikiGuy (talk) 12:00, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Unsaturated oils, such as olive oil, have a short shelf life and are prone to becoming rancid from [[oxidation]], which will produce toxic byproducts and a bitter taste.<ref>[http://www.springerlink.com/content/f3q2357767465434/ Springerlink.com]</ref> Protection of unsaturated oils from heat and light will delay spoilage.

anon IP's POV tagging from Sept 2012

Well, someone tagged the Adulteration section but didn't take it to the Talk Page, so I'm putting it here:

213.37.6.101 (talk) (→‎Adulteration: This section currently reads like a smear campaign against Spanish and Italian olive oil producers written by their competitors

No Reliable Sources are given to dispute the section, just someone's POV, apparently. Should this be discussed further or just removed as not a valid application of the tag? The section appears well-referenced with 12 citations, and a quick look through of five of them support the text of the article. The Madrid-anon may be reacting from personal reasons rather than Wiki editing standards. HammerFilmFan (talk) 19:05, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

"Spain ..., its primary export market being Italy, where it is blended and rebranded for re-export as Italian Oil, particularly to the United States"

I had the above statement removed since on the one hand is not supported by any evidence on the other hand is clearly derogatory. Reading those passages one can think that 1) Spaniards do not want to make business directly with US for no clear reasons; 2) Italians are cheaters and 3) Americans are so stupid to buy fake oil.

It goes without saying that sometimes it may happens that some corrupt men try to pass as Italian something else. However, it is extremely exagerated to state that this misconduct is systematically (cit: "Italy, where it is blended and rebranded for re-export").

The guy who added the above statement should provide some reasonable proof, apart from his personal knoweldge, about what he maintains. As long as he has not done that, the statement should be regarded as unfounded, unsupported and contrary to Wikipedia rules and therefore unallowable.

• • • While there is a lack of references for the statement, the proposition that the statement is derogatory doesn't hold water . . . Spaniards have contended for years that Spanish Olive Oil is imported into Italy and rebranded as Italian. Spaniards were unable to "make business with the US" or compete against Italian exporters during the Franco years, leading to a stranglehold on the American Oil market by Italian exporters. This doesn't mean that "Spaniards don't want to make business with the US." And Italians are not cheaters for re-exporting Spanish olive oil under Italian brand names; however, they might be "cheaters" as they export more olive oil than they produce according to: . And Italians may be blending other oils into their export Olive Oil according to: . Perhaps some references to support your three allegations would be in order. Such speculation without references seems specious when attacking another statement for lacking references.

I think that the original statement with references could read: "Spain ..., its primary export market being Italy, where it is blended and rebranded for re-export from Italy, particularly to the United States"

By doing that, we've acknowledged that Spanish oil imported to Italy is exported to other markets without the contentious statement that this oil is purported to be Italian in orign. . . merely that it is exported by Italy to other countries regardless of source. StateOfTheUnion (talk) 11:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

A very common practice, which is not fraudulent, but certainly misleading, is to market olive oil "packed in Italy" or "exported from Italy" which (as documented in fine print on the packaging) consists of a blend of oils from other countries. Filippo Berio documents this practice quite clearly on their site: "Most Olive Oils in supermarkets are blends from different producing countries, and labelled with the town or country in which the oil was ‘packed in’."[3] There are no doubt also cases where the package labelling is frankly fraudulent, but that's another matter.... --Macrakis (talk) 11:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• • • • The onus to demonstrate the validity of a statement relies solely on the one who propose that statement. Thus, it seems rather specious to ask people to provide sources to support objection of other people's unsupported statement. In other words, it is not up to me to demonstrate the validity of the unsourced phrase I am objecting to. With the due respect for your opinion, I can see you seem to try to arbitrary merge statements taken out from their original context from some unlinked sources which actually do not say that Italian Oil producers are cheaters (In US, a journalists or analyst recklessly stating that would be prosecuted without mercy for defamation). The sources you had provided do not say that "Italians may be blending other oil", rather that some olive producers can do that. Again, since the objected phrase merely labels the ITALIAN oil producers, i.e. oil producers characterized by the fact of being ITALIAN, as "cheaters" is derogatory in its nature and therefore unallowable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.92.153.12 (talk) 14:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

However, the best olive oil in the world is that of Spain, especially when it is pure (something that ceases to be when mixed in Italy) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.165.50.217 (talk) 01:47, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

References

April 5 changes

I notice that quite a lot of content was deleted today. While I haven't had the time to read through all of it, I do agree that this article is in desperate need of cleanup, and that it's full of holistic medicine claims, unreferenced (or poorly referenced) statements, and so on. I commend Zefr for making some bold changes with the aim of improving the article.

However, some of the content I recently added in regards to skin care was backed up by peer-reviewed medical journals. Olive oil in skin care is a topic of heated debate and research in the scientific community (search "(skin) AND olive oil" here: [4]). I have to admit I was slightly miffed when I came to add more scientific content about olive oil's application in skin care, only to find that my hours or so of doing research yesterday had been wiped.

I believe that the section should remain, but that we should be prudent about junk sources and original research. - Sweet Nightmares 14:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

SweetNightmares: two references for preliminary research cited as potential anti-cancer mechanisms of olive oil in skin remain, but other references that existed in the section on potential skin effects were WP:SPAM and not WP:MEDRS. As basic research is both peer-reviewed and the foundation for clinical research, it is applicable but not proof of clinical efficacy which, when of sufficient scientific substantiation, becomes eligible for FDA review as a health claim.

The amount of spam existing around the possible internal and external health effects of olive oil was significant, requiring substantial pruning. As evidence of the scientific rigor applied during regulatory review on a potential health claim, such as by the FDA, see[5], currently ref 59. I will continue to watch and edit this page for its information on research, nutrition and regulatory status on health claims for olive oil. --Zefr (talk) 16:37, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you an expert in the field? An MD? I myself have no medical training (though I do have a BA), but that does not mean we cannot leave statements such as those you deleted. Prior to your intervention, I did remove some of the worst offenders "[it's] quite popular with fans of natural health remedies," "Olive oil has been known for generations not only for its healing qualities but also as a natural, deep penetration moisturizer, regenerating skin cells and softening the tissue."). Some of the remaining statements were lacking citation, or could have used better citations, but that's why we have the {{citation needed}} and {{refimprove}} templates.

For example, the oil cleansing method hasn't shown up a whole lot in the mainstream news yet, and there have been no clinical trials on it, but there have been a couple studies (to which I do not have access) comparing it with other emollients for topical use on the face.[6] It's also worth mentioning that this is not a medical treatment, only a method of self-maintenance, so it doesn't fall under WP:MEDRS. The fact is that people (such as ancient Greeks/Egyptians) have used it to clean their faces and bodies in the past, and people continue to do so today. How can a plain true/false statement that doesn't tout it as snake oil possibly be controversial?

Another part that got deleted dealt with removal of earwax. While I did not put this here, in an effort to improve the article, I spent quite a bit of effort to verify the source. I finally found the article itself, which was written by an MD and published in the Ear, Nose, and Throat Journal. If you are still not satisfied, I could probably find this on WebMD or eMedicine to satisfy WP:MEDRS.

A final piece of information, which I added yesterday, discusses the presence of squalene and its potential effect on seborrheic dermatitis, acne, psoriasis, and atopic dermatitis. It was published in the Journal of Cosmetic Science.

I would like to remind you that this is Wikipedia. It is a starting point for information, not a place where users are supposed to come to self-diagnose or treat. While I agree we need to be careful in making health claims, much of the content you deleted was not spam, came from a reliable source, and deserves to stay. Furthermore, because Wikipedia is worldwide, FDA practices are irrelevant and should not serve as a standard here per WP:WORLDVIEW. - Sweet Nightmares 18:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

FDA qualified health claim review and WP:MEDRS are proxies for verifiable scientific substantiation about factual statements that can be used in a Wikipedia article concerning human health. An example review from the EU food safety authority concerning the lack of evidence for health effects of olive oil polyphenols is here.[7] We should hold any information about possible olive oil health effects, whether used internally or externally, to the same high standards of science or evidence from reliable sources. This is another publication on olive oil squalene and potential for lowering cancer risk.[8] Perhaps you could create a new section here on Talk for material like your draft on skin effects, allowing a collaborative edit before putting it into the Article.--Zefr (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

What's that? I can't hear you from your high horse. - Sweet Nightmares 14:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Please focus on content. --Ronz (talk) 16:37, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Olive oil publications

I noticed there is a web publication dedicated to olive oil: "Olive Oil Times" - http://www.oliveoiltimes.com. I think it's worth to mention such websites somewhere. Maybe at "External links" section. If there are many such publication, maybe there can be a separate page with a list of such sites. —  Ark25  (talk) 12:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

How many kilograms of olives are required to make 1 liter of olive oil

I think this information should be included in the article. It seems it takes between 4 and 8 kilograms. [9] [10] [11]

Another estimate is: a ton of olives do not we get more than 15 to 16 liters of oil, value optimistic. = 62.5 kilograms of olives for 1 liter of oil. [12] —  Ark25  (talk) 02:20, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Health in cooking

I added this, but it got removed:

There are claims that olive oil and other cooking oils are unhealthy if cooked at high enough temperatures to smoke.

I think many people will be looking for *some* info about this. Nkn7391 (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

References

smoke points, extra virgin vs. refined

Does anyone know the source for the smoke points listed here? The http://www.filippoberio.com/ web site lists 320F for all three of their extra virgins and 470F for their refined. The Wikipedia number of 410F is much lower than I have ever seen listed on a refined. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

smoke points, extra virgin vs. refined

The North American Olive Oil Association lists ranges for olive oil smoke point. Extra virgin olive oil smoke point range 350⁰ - 410⁰ F. Olive oil and light-tasting olive oil smoke point range 390⁰ - 470⁰ F. http://blog.aboutoliveoil.org/olive-oil-smoke-point and http://www.aboutoliveoil.org/cookingwitholiveoil.pdf. Are these acceptable sources for the smoke points of refined v extra virgin olive oil? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HmmmOPt (talk • contribs) 18:55, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

'Solidity'

The infobox asserts:

> Solidity at 20 °C (68 °F) 1,000 °C (1,830 °F)

I have never come across solidity as a quantifiable thing, and cannot imagine how it could be quantified on a temperature scale. The article on Solidity is about Ethereum programming, which is nothing to do with olive oil (snake oil, perhaps). Could the infobox grow a link to an explanation of this measurement?

Yeah, "solidity at 20 °C = 1,000 °C" makes no sense at all. Looking at the documentation for {{infobox oils}}, it seems that this template field should simply indicate whether it is a solid or liquid at 20 °C. So I have changed it to indicate that olive oil is a liquid at 20 °C. Deli nk (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

France is number 3out of the big 4 olive oil nations

Olive trees not only grow all over Sub-Loirean France but also north of the Loire river. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.88.45 (talk) 23:55, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Please define the Tablespoon. 2 tablespoons = 23g??

Wikipedia: "Limited and not conclusive scientific evidence suggests that eating about two tablespoons (23 g) of olive oil daily may reduce the risk of coronary heart disease." So does this mean 30mL of Olive Oil weights 23g? I think not. [13] [14]

+21 C room => density 0.913 g/mL => 23/0.913 = 25.2 mL. Density of olive oil is about 91% of density of water. Other coooking oils have similar weights: [15]. ee1518 (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

The FDA (part C) emphasizes that the 23 g (approx. 2 tablespoons, so one tbsp = 11.5 g) is a limited, lowly qualified claim. I'm not certain where you derived that this amount is 30 ml (more like 23 ml for 2 tbsp). --Zefr (talk) 19:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Content deletion

I added content that was reverted by @MrDemeanour: with the edit summary: "Delete implication that Greece includes Crete". I do not have the pedigrees of papered knowledge hanging on my walls that some profess but the article Crete states in the lead, "...one of the 13 top-level administrative units of Greece" and "Crete forms a significant part of the economy and cultural heritage of Greece". To update my lacking knowledge can someone expound on this since it is in sources and at least one article so we can correct errors? We sure don't want false "implications" plastered on Wikipedia. This supposed "implication" was not all that was "deleted". @Zefr: removed more while adding some pertinent content.

• The content before revision:

"Greece is the third largest producer of olive oil and the world's top producer of black olives. There are 531,000 farms cultivating 730,000 hectares (1,800,000 acres) from 132 million trees and producing 310-350,000 tons of olive oil with 82% being extra-virgin. Peloponnese produces 65% of the countries olive oil, as well as the Aegean and Ionian Islands. Koroneiki is reported to be the prized variety and agourélaio olive oil is produced from this variety, which is slightly unripe and pressed without the stone (pit). The oil is acid free and has high organoleptic properties but leaving out the pit reduces oil production so is mostly produced by Boutique entrepreneurs and small cooperatives.

• Content after revision:

"Greece is the third largest producer of olive oil. As of 2009, there were 531,000 farms cultivating 730,000 hectares (1,800,000 acres) from 132 million trees producing 310-350,000 tons of olive oil."

References

I added referenced encyclopedic content that includes information on agourélaio olive oil and black olives. The subject of the article is olive oil, the reverted content was relevant and as far as I know not covered anywhere else, so I would like some discussion concerning this content removal. Also, the produced tonnage was from two separate sources that differed by 40,000 tons so I included both sources per normal practice, to be accurate, and I am sure this is backed by policies and/or guidelines. By removing one reference the amount is actually inaccurate according to the single source and forced synthesis.

Some person named @Larry Sanger: stated, "Our goal with Wikipedia is to create a free encyclopedia; indeed, the largest encyclopedia in history, both in terms of breadth and in terms of depth. We also want Wikipedia to be a reliable resource.", and I am trying to figure out why what seems to be important encyclopedic information is somehow considered "outdated" or just straight out deleted along with a source. Otr500 (talk) 08:40, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

My edit was in error; I apologise. I had confused Cyprus with Crete. I tried to self-revert, but it seems most of your addition has now been removed by another editor, on the grounds that it is out-of-date. I also suspect it may have fallen foul of WP:COPYVIO, as a lot of the text seems to be lifted directly from prosodol.gr. MrDemeanour (talk) 13:01, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Otr500, I agreed with trimming your edit because the information is 9 years out of date, and provided outdated detail beyond the balance in the Production section where Greece is the third largest producer, and so doesn't warrant more detail than Spain or Italy. I felt WP:PROPORTION and WP:NOTEVERYTHING were appropriate guidance for trimming your content in that section.--Zefr (talk) 15:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

@ User:MrDemeanour: Thanks, I am glad you were able to get your bearings straight on geography. As far as "suspecting" copyvio issues, I hope you are aware that if content is not other than "reworded" from a source it is original research or even synthesis. I did not see any such issues, there was no plagiarism or even too close paraphrasing, so you would have to give enlightenment of this "concern".

@ User:Zefr: In the interest of fairness and balance I can see where approximately 108 words about Greece versus 90 on Italy (Spain has two paragraphs so not an issue) would be a grievous error. I wasn't aware we were counting words so closely nor that there was concern over information considered "outdated" by one year over content presented in the article that has material dated 2010 and 2014. "If" being outdated is a major concern it would seem a "major" gap from 2010/2014 to 2018 could be addressed. I would also think that the year of dating of a source not as important on content that is still accurate and the content is relevant and encyclopedic.

According to 2017/18 Worldwide Olive Oil Production Estimates Compared Italy is expected to produce 320,000, Greece 300,000, Turkey 287,000, and Tunisia 220,000 tonnes. I would think as an update to the 2014 template there would be 2016/2017 figures. "If" these figures are correct then the Global market section is outdated.

I think content concerning agourélaio olive oil and black olive production to be interesting, significant encyclopedic content, and not sure why it was deleted. If we are being "fair" and counting words to to present "PROPORTION" (as well as balance) then Tunisia, Australia, and North America now have more content than Greece. "IF" these figures are correct then Turkey should have some coverage unless there is some political reasoning.

Concerns: The article proclaims "All production begins by transforming the olive fruit into olive paste by crushing or pressing." and I am curious about the omission of the curing process. Curing by water, brine, salt, oil, lye, and wine or vinegar is an important first step (element) in the process of oil production to remove bitterness and I would think something to be included in a B-class article. At least some summary content and something pointing to Olive#Traditional fermentation and curing. I would think for readability that content in a section on Adulteration would be better suited to follow a section on Regulation that lists a main article of Olive oil regulation and adulteration.

I have been adding olive cultivars as I run across then, regardless of country of origin, and when I find information that is not just trivia but of encyclopedic value I add where appropriate. Maybe some of the above will be considered before the article is elevated to a higher class. Anyway, you guys have fun with this and I will go play somewhere else. Otr500 (talk) 07:23, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Cold press olive oil machine at Saba Habib in Israel 2.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Question for Zefr

@Zefr: Would you object to including the content in a separate section other than history? I agree that these are not good enough to be history WP:RS, but I don't want to leave the current version with no citation. It's been tagged for citation needed since 2017 and these are the best sources I have been able to find for this content. I think it should be included somewhere, but maybe not the history section? Dartslilly (talk) 18:05, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

As a book of myths, the bible is not a WP:RS source and cannot meet WP:V. Perhaps you could expand on this: Many ancient presses still exist in the Eastern Mediterranean region, and some dating to the Roman period are still in use today.

--Zefr (talk) 18:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Agri Mafia

Mention ought be made of Agri Mafia activity (particularly in Italy) in which Olive Oil is contaminated with other ingredients to increase bulk and profit. This has been going on for decades and is well documented. I'll leave it to the OO experts here to decide whether this merits inclusion, and which sources to cite. Hanoi Road (talk) 20:38, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Already there under "Adulteration" section. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks. Hanoi Road (talk) 16:20, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Limited edition and First harvest olive oils. Are they healthier?

Are these just marketing hoaxes for olive oils, or do these offer benefits for consumers, like containing more healthy polyphenols?

• Limited edition.

• First harvest. Or Early harvest.

--91.159.179.160 (talk) 18:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Marketing hoaxes. There are no confirmed health effects of polyphenols. Zefr (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Contradictory passages, "Culinary Uses"

The section on "culinary uses" seems OT have two completely contradictory passages on the usefulness of extra virgin oils v. refined oils. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:CA10:18A0:0:0:0:620 (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)