Talk:Olive Temple

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A fact from Olive Temple appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 December 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Olive MacLeod (pictured) journeyed 6,000 km (3,700 mi) through Africa in 1910–1911 to visit her murdered fiancé's grave, and wrote a book based on her observations?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2022/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Olive Temple.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 22:36, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Olive Temple

... that Olive MacLeod (pictured) journeyed 6,000 km (3,700 mi) into the French Sudan in 1910–1911 to visit her murdered fiancé's grave, and wrote a book based on her observations? Source: https://doi.org/10.1093%2Fref%3Aodnb%2F63622
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Myosotis pansa subsp. praeceps

Created by Ficaia (talk). Self-nominated at 04:49, 21 November 2022 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing:
Neutral: - "treacherously murdered" should likely be "murdered" or "killed". I would also recommend using "fiance" instead of "lover", unless a source clearly substantiates that type of involvement (a biography discussing their relationship, for example, rather than a news-bite using the term).
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - paragraph after "First journey" needs reworking: it is too close to text at https://historywiki.therai.org.uk/index.php?title=Olive_MacLeod_(later_Temple)

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - For hook citation, I suggest adding another sentence to the lead, something like "Her book" (give title) "recounts her journey and records her observations about Africa." followed by a citation.
Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Ficaia:, Nice article! I am fascinated by these intrepid women travellers! This just needs a little cleanup work for the DYK (see notes above). The lead could also include a second paragraph to quickly summarize her later life. I have added one of the images from the article to the hook. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 15:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mary Mark Ockerbloom: I've replaced "lover" with "fiance" and removed "treacherously". As for the copyvio concerns, the paragraph in question is taken from this public domain source, and is attributed. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Ficaia:. You're right that the source is PD in the USA, because it was published in 1910. However, as an anonymous work first published in London I believe it may still be under copyright in the UK, which gives anonymous works 120 years of copyright after publication. If appropriate licensing is PD-US-expired-abroad, you will still need to rephrase that paragraph. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mary Mark Ockerbloom: I've had a go at rewording the paragraph. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 04:41, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Great job, @Ficaia: issues have been resolved and this is ready to go. MaryMO (AR) (talk) 13:20, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ficaia and Mary Mark Ockerbloom:

could Nedrutland's {{dubious}} tag be resolved before promotion? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 01:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Theleekycauldron: I've removed the tag. The ODNB says she wrote a book based on her observations, so I don't see how the claim is at all dubious. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 04:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All right. We'll see if Nedrutland turns up to explain further; if that doesn't happen in a few days, ping me back and I'll re-add the tick. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 04:24, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I've replaced "experiences in the French Sudan" with just "observations". Other sources cited in the body (probably less reliable) do say that she travelled through parts of the French Sudan, but perhaps that doesn't need to go in the lead. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 04:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nedrutland doesn't seem to object to removing the tag, so I'll retick. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 18:55, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

DYK hook

Her "experiences in the French Sudan" is questionable and the French Sudan is not mentioned in the cited source, the ODNB. Boyd Alexander was killed east of Lake Chad but buried west of the Lake (now Nigeria) so if she visited his grave she did not need to leave territory claimed by British interests. Also, not all of claimed French colonial possessions in Africa were part of French Sudan; French Chad was in French Equatorial Africa. Nedrutland (talk) 15:35, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nedrutland: Can you please add a citation for the following detail you added to the article: "... near Nyeri, 113 km (70 mi) north of Abéché, the capital of Wadai. His body was recovered and buried next to his brother Claud's grave at Maifoni in Bornu." Thanks, 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 04:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ficaia: See ODNB entry for Boyd Alexander; "... Alexander, on reaching Nyeri, 70 miles north of Abeshr, the capital of Wadai, was murdered by Muslim tribesmen on 2 April 1910. He was buried at Maifoni, by the grave of his brother Claud." (with variation in spelling). Nedrutland (talk) 07:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dated language

Some of the phrasing sounds somewhat Edwardian: "her pluck", "the heart of Africa", "the confines of". It could be modernised. Nedrutland (talk) 13:29, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

and was carried in litters on three days through swampy land

The article says (1st journey):

and was carried in litters on three days through swampy land

What does that mean? I'd prefer e.g. one of these:

and was carried in litters on three separate occasions through swampy land

and was carried in litters on three separate days through swampy land

and was carried in litters for three days through swampy land

but which is it? Nø (talk) 09:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]