Talk:Olana State Historic Site

Separate articles

Is it really necessary to have separate articles on the house and the historic site? Daniel Case 04:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Not sure whether there were two then, but there is just one merged article now. Also not sure which way you wanted it to be. But this seems fine now as 1 article. doncram (talk) 22:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

changes to Olana wikipedia entry

I'm coordinating changes to the Olana wikipedia entry, for all who would like to participate. I'm a board member of The Olana Partnership and former curator at the site. Karen Zukowski Karen Zukowski (talk) 20:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! I am a veteran Wikipedia editor who has been to Olana exactly one time. :-)

I enjoyed the tour greatly, and my inner courtyard photo is currently in the article. I will let you know if I think the article as you develop it is getting to be unencyclopedic, too folksy or too promotional. Binksternet (talk) 22:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Mr (Ms?) Binksternet -- I'm so glad to hear from you! I am eager to update the Olana Wikipedia entry, and so is everyone at Olana. I'm a writer and am delighted to turn out an encyclopedia-type illustrated article on Olana that won't be too long, or too promotional. But I need help in getting my words and images up into the Wikipedia format. I went to the "sandbox" mode, and was totally stumped. So far I've made a few changes by going into the article itself and editing. But I'd like to make new headings, upload images, and otherwise change the format of the current article. Help! Would you be willing to post/format information I send you? Help! I'm at karenzuk@aol.com. Karen Zukowski Karen Zukowski (talk) 15:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Most edits aren't that tricky once you get the hang of it. What are you having trouble doing exactly? For headings, just click edit and change the text of a heading, or add a heading by surrounding it with two or more equals signs depending what level heading you want. Take a look at "Getting Started" or "Editing Wikipedia" at Help:Contents. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I have incorporated Karen Zukowski's material, her text and sources, and have added a bit more as well including another photo from that one visit my wife and I made. I am rating the article B-Class now, up from C-Class.

Going forward from here, in the direction of Good Article Class, the text could use a little massaging in places where it is clunky from my copying and pasting, from my merging of the old version and the new. Also, some more scholarly details could be introduced such as analysis of the architectural plan, building materials, design details, etc. I think it would be interesting to know who was born or died on the estate, and which works of art were started or finished there; which notable works of art are on display. Is anybody buried on the grounds? Also, some notes about the flavor of family life the Churches enjoyed in the home, for instance, the way they entertained, the daily and seasonal rhythms of Olana. How many people were employed at its height, how many people lived on the estate, how many children there may have been running around. Further information might be given regarding the changes to the house and property over the years, when trees were cut down or replanted, what lighting system was first employed (gas? candles? kerosene?) and when the place was electrified. How the kitchen has changed relative to the rest of the house. What outbuildings were torn down and which survive. Water and drainage challenges. Too many possibilities here, and the article should not expand into a book (!), but I think there is still room for some greater detail. Binksternet (talk) 03:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Changes to the 'Landscape' section

In the Landscape section, new editor User:Ancram has thrice deleted sourced text and replaced it with unsourced text of much greater volume. The new text is good-quality writing for a coffee table book or magazine article, but it is not very encyclopedic and it appears to me to be original research, a type of writing that is not used on Wikipedia, as established by the guideline Wikipedia:No original research. Here is Ancram's text in full:

Under Frederic Church’s direction, Olana developed over the last forty years of his life into a three-dimensional work of art that includes the magnificent Persian-inspired home with its myriad collections set in a 250-acre designed landscape with iconic views of the Hudson River Valley. The grounds as a whole are considered the finest surviving residential example of the Picturesque style in the United States. As the name implies, Picturesque designs frame particular views - more often a sequence of views - to create a desired effect. With deep roots in Europe, this style was popularized in the United States by another Hudson Valley resident and prolific garden writer, A. J. Downing. It reached its apex in the hands of designers like Frederick Law Olmsted and Calvert Vaux, designers of New York’s Central Park, perhaps the most famous American Picturesque landscape. Once a Commissioner of Central Park, Church knew these men well and shared their aesthetic sensibilities in addition to a belief in the power of landscape to shape public consciousness. These similarities, growing out of the intellectual and creative milieu in the United States and particularly New York City, are evidenced in both Church’s paintings and his designed landscape at Olana.

Frederic Church began his work at Olana by employing his famously keen eye in the process of site selection. According to a contemporary account, Church took three years to search for the perfect piece of property, three years at a time when his artistic successes would have made it possible for him to purchase nearly any land he desired. He had walked and sketched throughout much of New England and elsewhere by that time, but his two years in Catskill, New York, living and studying with Thomas Cole brought him an intimate familiarity with and passion for the Hudson Valley.

Once Church made his initial acquisition of a farm tucked in to a natural bowl in the landscape, he instantly set about making what was already a remarkably ideal landscape even more so. He expanded the farm complex, complete with the picturesque “Cosy Cottage” designed by Richard Morris Hunt, to highlight the bucolic nature of his new family property. He also established a profitable orchard and massive kitchen garden, of which he was justly proud. Frederic Church then carefully distinguished between land for active agriculture and land for a park, where he planted thousands of trees, created a large lake, and designed miles of carriage trails from which to experience his new composition. As time went on, Church strategically acquired additional adjacent parcels until his property encompassed 250 acres and the top of the hill where the main house at Olana now stands. He created a layer of architectural elements that further animated the landscape. His studio, now gone, was a solitary retreat for Church but also a destination and proscribed viewing point for family and friends, much like the ruins and hermit huts constructed in European Picturesque landscapes. There was once also a summer house in the park beneath the house which offered similarly composed landscape views. Rustic benches of Church’s design and rustic railings have been recreated on site. The ultimate garden folly, the oriental fantasy atop the hill, of course remains.

Like his painted landscapes, the physical landscape at Olana is composed of foreground (the house environs), middle ground (the rolling fields and forest), and background (the Hudson River and Catskill Mountains). As in his paintings, the foreground at Olana was a much more detailed landscape, where canopy, understory, and ground plane were created with richly layered plantings of choice native species. Spatially, these plantings – along with natural landforms, the very windows on his house, and the careful layout of miles of carriage drives – were used by Church to reveal exactingly framed vistas of his own property and the wider Hudson River Valley. Inspired by the great nineteenth century scientist, Alexander von Humboldt, Church used this combination of place-specific detail and evocative, sweeping views to capture and distill the genius of place for all visitors to Olana.

The landscape around the main house at Olana must be understood as the foreground to the long views for which the site is justly famous. It can further be used as a case study for the larger landscape. Approaching the main house from either of the two historic entrance routes, one does not see the river, the mountains, or have a clear view of the house. These carriage drives are densely wooded or openly pastoral, with views of the Churches' park and farm, as well as the neighboring farms that still cover adjacent hills. Stylized naturalistic plantings with layered detail near the house signaled guests that their destination was imminent. Tantalizing glimpses of the house are offered, and then, as the drive turns gently, one spots the Hudson River for the first time. Continuing along that drive, the Catskill Mountains come in to view and then one arrives at the Churches' residence with a stunning, oblique view of the south and east elevations. The ground along the south facade (facing the river view) is shaped to form a grassy stepped terrace or plinth beneath the house. This distinctive landform inevitably draws all visitors and functions as the viewing platform for the ultimate landscape experience at Olana. From that perch, visitors experience the sublime in the truest sense of the word. The land falls away at one's feet. The Hudson River bends deeply and stretches off toward infinity. The Catskill Mountains rise up from the south to their majestic peaks just across from Olana.

For Church and his contemporaries, this view captured the very essence of our new nation: rich in references to pioneering history, present economic strength, and a distinguished literary and artistic legacy. Church’s composed views from Olana also revealed a distinctly American landscape that still speaks to and of the soul. All of the land visible from Olana – the Olana Viewshed – was integral to Frederic Church’s conception of site, and it remains a critical component of the designed landscape and the genius of place at Olana. To date, more than 1300 acres have been protected within the Olana Viewshed, largely through conversation easements and the collaborative efforts of The Olana Partnership with other land conservation organizations. Spearheaded by the Olana Partnership, restoration and interpretation of this significant designed historic landscape in now underway.

Another problem with this version is that it is prescriptive, working to push a point of view that advocates restoring the Olana viewshed. The encyclopedia is not the platform for advocating political or social change. Binksternet (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Ancram: I work at Olana and and I am editing the page based on text provided by the new landscape curator. The text is accurate an verified; how can we proceed to keep it live? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancram (talk • contribs) 17:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The new landscape curator must publish first, perhaps on a webpage (since that is easiest), or Wikipedia cannot use the text. The main problem I have with your edit is that referenced text was removed, text that was supported by a 2001 book by James Anthony Ryan, longtime site director of Olana, and by this New York State website. If you can add information rather than remove it, the article will benefit.

Also: the new landscape curator's wording is flowery prose, not cold encyclopedic description. A bit of artful prose can be included, but not such a great mass of poetic declarations as "a distinctly American landscape that still speaks to and of the soul", "tantalizing glimpses", "making what was already a remarkably ideal landscape even more so", "a layer of architectural elements that further animated the landscape", "oriental fantasy atop the hill", "richly layered plantings", "perfect piece of property", "visitors experience the sublime in the truest sense of the word" and "famously keen eye". The phrase "of course" should rarely (if ever) appear in an encyclopedia article. Descriptions such as "miles of carriage trails" should say how many miles. Mention of Church's role as Central Park commissioner should say when, which years, or how long. On Wikipedia, the informative article is king, the visionary article is deprecated. Binksternet (talk) 17:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Ancram: Thanks for your comments; we can work together to get it right —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancram (talk • contribs) 17:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure something can be worked out, with a little give and take, maintaining the big picture: that this is an encyclopedia article, not an art book description!

A further problem I have with the new landscape curator's verbiage, in the form of a tacked-on piece, is that it introduces redundancies to the article. It names and defines Picturesque after that term has been introduced, it discusses 250 acres and 40 years after those numbers have been introduced, it brings up Downing, Vaux, Olmstead and Hunt after those men have been previously discussed. Binksternet (talk) 18:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I had just pasted that in and hoped to edit out the overlapping text; Karen is forwarding your email address so perhaps we can work out a draft that could get posted ASAP. We really want to improve this entry about Olana §Ancram (talk) 21:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)ancram

Anybody can email me using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Binksternet this URL. If I were to work in the desired text, I would need to have a published source for it, and it would be primarily informative chunks rather than flowery descriptions. Binksternet (talk) 23:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Trivia

Parts of the 1976 pornographic musical Alice in Wonderland were shot at Olana. (The house is clearly visible in the last reel.) Unfortunately I can't find any good reference for this—the top googgle result only states "...it is rumored that..." Anyone have anything better? 198.228.195.97 (talk) 00:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Someone could probably find the movie on some web site somewhere and get a screen shot of that scene where the house is visible. (Hopefully not pornographic). Would that do as a cite-able source? Ronwass (talk) 15:13, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Extent of Vaux' design of main house.

From the article, concerning the main house, not the grounds:

The main building is an architectural masterpiece designed mainly by Church himself, working with the architect Calvert Vaux [citation needed].

From the National Park Service's "National Historic Landmarks" page for Olana:

The picturesque estate was designed by the artist Frederic Edwin Church (1826-1900). The Church’s residences on the estate include a cottage designed by Richard Morris Hunt and the mansion designed by Calvert Vaux. http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=365&ResourceType=Building

On The Olana Partnership website:

Drawings by Richard Morris Hunt document that Church considerd using him as an architect, but ultimately decided on Calvert Vaux. Church spent the next two years working with Vaux designing and building a home that would be, as he called it "Persian, adapted to the Occident" http://www.olana.org/learn_the_house.php

Martha Stewart's remarks at the Olana Partnership 2012 Frederic E. Church Award Gala (she was an awardee):

His appreciation of Central Park may have been one reason that Church hired Calvert Vaux to design Olana. Vaux’s reputation for collaboration was surely another! Church was deeply involved in the project—he did everything from drawing ballusters and slate patterns for the roof to mixing all the colors. I'm sure some of the architects and designers in this room are thinking: “nightmare client!” In fact, Church’s immersion in the creation of Olana was such that Vaux eventually took to identifying himself a consultant on the project. http://www.themarthablog.com/2012/01/being-honored-by-the-olana-partnership-at-the-new-york-public-library.html

So, since opinions of the extent of Vaux' design runs a gamut, is this a case where boundaries were so blurred that it isn't possible to say where Vaux stopped and Church began? If so, was Vaux alarmed or did he enjoy the collaboration? Thanks, Wordreader (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Blurred, yes, to the point of easing the language now in the article, to shift the responsibility to somewhere between the two men. Good point! Binksternet (talk) 13:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Bibliography

The bibliography for this article lacks internal links to the authors and editors. Does anyone know how to add them, given the formating that was used? Whackyaboutwiki (talk) 10:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)