Talk:Ode to a Nightingale

Ode to a Nightingale has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 6, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 8, 2009.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the 1819 odes of English poet John Keats, including On Melancholy, To a Nightingale, To Psyche, and To Autumn, created "a new tone for the English lyric" according to critic W. Jackson Bate?

[Untitled]

The person who wrote that has taken the fact that Keats refers to it as 'bird' out of context. In fact the only time he says 'bird' is in the seventh stanza, where the actual quote is 'Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!'. He even capitalised the word.

Also, 'deceiving elf' does not refer to the nightingale at all. Instead it refers to the 'fancy pants' (his imagination), mentioned a line before, which 'cannot cheat so well' (cannot be true reality). He is saying his imagination is a deceiving elf 'as she is fam'd to do'.

The nightingale is the vehicle on which Keats' imagination rides to forget his world. He is in constant awe of the bird throughout the poem. Saying he does not simply because he refers to the bird's song as a 'plaintive anthem' is unsubstantiated. It is once again taken out of context. The last stanza is Keats' feelings on leaving the world of the nightingale ('thy plaintive anthem fades/ Past the near meadows; over the still stream..'). The previously stated 'high reqiuem' is now referred to as 'plaintive anthem' simply because he is sad that it is fading away.

Keat's view of the bird does change in the poem, actually.

Keats realised he has been hoodwinked by the final stanza hence 'bird' instead of one of the more complimentary descriptions used earlier on. In the seventh stanza he is envious of the nightingale's immortality. In context that refers unfavourably with the more complimentary phrases used elsewhere. Note the use of cheat in "the fancy cannot cheat so well" in the eighth stanza. This is a pejorative phrase, indicating that he is irritated at the bird for cheating him. Once Keats leaves the state of negative capability he realises that the song is simplistic, why else would he refer to it as plaintive instead of 'high requiem,' used just one stanza before, while he was still in negative capability? He is sad that he's lost the ecstasy, but he knows it will return ("adieu" rather than a more definite form of farewell).

'Deceiving elf' does refer to the nightingale: look at light winged "Dryad of the trees" earlier in the poem. Possecomitatus 15:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keats's view of the Bird does not change

I must agree with the chap above - Keats reamains in a constant awe of the bird throughout the poem as is shown by, as said above, the word "Bird" is capitalised and its context "Thou wast not born for death immortal Bird!" clearly shows his awe and wonder at the nightingale. Furthermore the referrence to deceiving elf" is to his imagination and, again as above, his sadness at the bird's flight is what makes the anthem plaitive - this a view held by most, if not all, scholars on the subject. - Cicero Dog

"Plaintive" simply means "mournful"--it isn't pejorative whatsoever.

The vocative "deceiving elf" clearly refers to the subject of the sentence, "fancy" (i.e. imagination, "the viewless wings of Poesy" of line 33), and not the bird. Possecomitatus, you aren't supporting your argument for your interpretation. You need to conclusively connect the two things you're talking about, rather than just telling us to "look at" some lines.

I've added text moved from Nightingale, formatted the title and removed the unsourced or just plain silly critical responses. The new text might need integrating with mortality. jimfbleak 12:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Keats' brother Tom

Where on earth is there a "direct reference" to the death of Keats' brother Tom? I might accept that there may be a biographical connection, but it is in no way "direct". Could somebody explain that more precisely? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.6.139.208 (talk) 18:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree-- the text itself never mentions Tom, and to say that it talks about his personal experience without any contextual evidence is absurd. I am going to change that sentence.Mrathel (talk) 17:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Major Overhall

This article needs major work. At best, it has only a few sentences that can be considered encyclopedic, and it can not be allowed to stand with only one referenced source. I have been working on a few other odes by Keats, and I will get to this one when the time comes. Please feel free to add sources in the mean time, and I will check back to see if I can offer any help. This is probably one of Keat's most critically acclaimed poems, and it should not be hard to get real sources for each section.Mrathel (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sound and Sense

Anyone who doesn't hear the melodious devices of sound in the Nightingale ode has a tin ear. Lots of alliteration, assonance, and onomatopoeia--is that what it's called? ("the murmurous haunts of flies on summer eves" Again, if you can't hear the flies, you've got no ear.) Nevertheless, I find the elaborate discussion of long and short vowels unconvincing. And the spondee is a characteristic variation in English language iambics, I would guess no more prevalent in Keats than in Shakespeare.

Sure, the poem deals with so-called negative capability, but it is primarily an attempt to illustrate a Romantic epiphany as in Emerson's transparent eye-ball, Whitman's experience in Section 5 of Song of Myself, and the missing but remembered "glory" in Wordsworth's Immortality Ode.Jim Lacey (talk) 19:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, according to W. J. Bates, it is more prevalent in Keats than in other poets. And to say that Keats is doing what Emerson or Whitman is doing is quite wrong. They may have tried to copy something off of him, but he was far more classical and British, and they were later. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I still think that Emerson and Whitman in their own way describe a mystical experience similar to what Wordsworth and Keats had described in their great odes. Another example in Whitman is "Out of the Cradle, Endlessly Rocking."Jim Lacey (talk) 18:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ode to a Nightingale/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi. :) Will begin reviewing soon. Kaguya-chan (talk) 22:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
Quote in lead needs a ref and the lead is a little short. Add the critical reception to lead?
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
The whole Poem section lacks a ref.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
"It is known that the Ode to a Nightingale is considered among one of the greatest poems ever written in English Literature.[3]" Something about this does not seem neutral. In the author's opinion, maybe.
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Comments:

Is it Ode to a Nightingale or "Ode to a Nightingale"?
Suggestion: In "In many of Keats's poems, Keats incorporates the internal vowel sound reptition in a conscious pattern." you could rewrite it to something like "In many of Keats's poems, he incorporates the internal vowel sound reptition in a conscious pattern."
"Ode to a Nightingale describes a series of conflicts between reality and the Romantic ideal." The Romantic ideal of reality?
Suggestion: "This emphasis on pleasure provoked Albert Guerard, Jr. to argue that..." Provoked sounds a little too strong here.

Overall, this is a nice, well-written article. :) I'm putting it on hold to give time for the comments to be addressed. Kaguya-chan (talk) 23:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. Expanded the lead by about 4 lines. 2. I completely rewrote the poem section with references and poem extracts. 3. I moved the quote about it being a great poem down to Bate's reaction to the poem. 4. I took your suggestion about the ideal and I instead put "Romantic ideal of uniting with nature". I think it makes more sense now with the revised poem section. 5. I rewrote the two assonance sentences to read as one: "The poem also incorporates a complex reliance on assonance, a repetition of vowel sounds, in a conscious pattern as found in many of his poems." 6. I rewrote the Guerard sentence to read: "Responding to this emphasis on pleasure, Albert Guerard, Jr. argue". Ottava Rima (talk) 03:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful work. :) Since all the concerns have been addressed, I will now pass the article. Kaguya-chan (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who is Fanny Keats? You mean Fanny Brown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.17.53 (talk) 12:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to commend the author as well as the commentators for this article. It's a very nice and rounded piece.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.64.151.66 (talk) 11:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Italic title

The incorrect italic title (see for example the other odes) is being imposed by the inappropriate book infobox. Perhaps someone knows a quick way of fixing this. Spicemix (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox poem ? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Annals of the Fine Arts

Is there an available facsimile image of the first publication in Annals of the Fine Arts? The image of the original manuscript clearly shows that the original punctuation was:

"Fled is that music? do I wake or sleep?"

When did the colon and dash appear? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Relying"

@Martinevans123: You raised a logical question in your recent edit summary: "how can 8% be seen as an example of "relying" on spondees?" Spondees (depending upon how you count them) can be relatively rare in iambic pentameter, and the source (Bate) shows that Keat's percentage did go way up at this time (from 3%-ish to 10%-ish). Bate does not use the word "rely" but does use the word "abundant". I think, since the implication is that these spondees are not just happening, but are used for effect (generally "slow", "expansive", "heavy"... these are my own interpretations), and the extracted lines (to me) exemplify this, that "rely" is not crazy. Cheers. Phil wink (talk) 18:02, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, well that seems to make sense, I guess. I'd be happier to stick closer to Bate's word "abundant", if at all possible. But I realise that would probably require a slight rewrite. The general reader will have no idea about "(from 3%-ish to 10%-ish)" and so may be left wondering, as I was, where this "reliance" comes from? Just my take on it, that's all. Thanks for asking. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:08, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Phil, I think your latest change is a great improvement. Much clearer now, to me at least. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is the hologram real

The hologram says "the nightingale" As title, but on Google and else where it's ode to "a" Nightingale. Why? 110.227.125.91 (talk) 15:31, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The full poem

The ode is actually very long but the hologram in 'poem' section is only like 1/3 of the poem... Rest? 110.227.125.91 (talk) 15:32, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The language of holograph

Is it thy or my in the first lines... 110.227.125.91 (talk) 15:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

The poem is possibly somewhere written around a forest, then forest area. As the ode says fade away into the forest dim... 110.227.125.91 (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]