Talk:O Holy Night/Archive 1

Archive 1

Tree in Atlanta

Do we really need the mention of the tree in Atlanta? You've got to remember that, sometimes, there are people in the world using Wikipedia that don't care about every unimportant aspect of local customs in America. (Forgive me if the event is important to some, but think in terms of the larger scheme of things - it has little to do with the song.) (Unsigned comment added by 203.214.82.5, 13:00, 13 December 2004 (UTC))

Lyrics

Can the lyrics legally be listed on Wikipedia? I am concerned that it maybe considered a copyright violation under Wikipedia's rules. Misterrick 00:27, 01 August 2005 (UTC).

The lyrics are a hundred and fifty years old. I think any copyright would have expired by now. – Hattrem 01:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

What about the Bing Crosby version? It's notably different from the original lyrics, plus it's probably one of the most popular recordings of the song. Shouldn't it be here, too? --Eisenmaus (talk) 19:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The High Note

This song's pretty well-known for having a high note that's hard to hit for some singers, shouldn't that be included?

As far as I recall it's a top B or B flat - a note any half decent soprano should be able to sing with ease: if they can't reach it they shouldn't being singing it, so I don't think it needs to be mentioned. 86.135.211.64 01:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I read it as a high C, but that is not a remarkably high note for professionals. Robert A.West (Talk) 04:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It depends what key you sing it in. Just today I heard a pop singer manage it by singing the piece in the key of C, which made the top note a G. The range is an octave and a half, the same as the Star Spangled Banner, which is also considered difficult to sing. CharlesTheBold (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

translation, slavery

I see the article attributes the "slave is our brother" line to the translator being a Quaker. But the French lyrics are here, and though my French skills are poor, it seems to say something about slaves and brothers. AltaVista's Babelfish translates the beginning of that verse as "Did the Redeemer break any obstacle, the ground is free and the sky is open / It sees a brother or was not that a slave / the love links those which the iron connected," So I think the hints of abolitionism may go back to the French. Any French speakers here who can confirm? --Allen 01:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Allen, with my limited knowledge of French I concur with AltaVista translation. The text should be definitely put in the context of historical events in France and the world. Possibly slavery should be considered in the context of both colonialism and the industrial revolution. ResearchMind 120906

I've deleted the reference to abolitionism because it implied the translator added that sentiment. I've read the French version of this article and it gives no background on why Cappeau referred slaves. DBlomgren (talk) 16:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The line in the French version, understood in context, refers to Jesus calling people brothers after redeeming them from sin. They are now free from sin and part of God's family. Logophile (talk) 11:29, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

"En cette nuit" or "À cette nuit"?

See here: is there an official text? What is the source?--Stemby (talk) 18:54, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Lyrics

Recent edits changing the lyrics may merit closer adult attention. --Wetman 21:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I notice there is no translation for the middle verse. The English verse in version 1 sort of follows it, but not really. Version 2 is off in the weeds somewhere....

De notre foi que la lumière ardente

Nous guide tous au berceau de l'Enfant,

Comme autrefois une étoile brillante

Y conduisit les chefs de l'Orient.

Le Roi des rois naît dans une humble crèche:

Puissants du jour, fiers de votre grandeur,

A votre orgueil, c'est de là que Dieu prêche.

Courbez vos fronts devant le Rédempteur.

Courbez vos fronts devant le Rédempteur.

Here's a first pass at a literal translation.

It is by our faith that the ardent light

guides us all to the cradle of the child

as in days past one bright star

led the kings of the Orient there.

The king of kings is born in a humble crib.

The mighty of the day, proud of your grandeur,

at your arrogance, it is from there that God proclaims

Bow your faces before the redeemer.

Bow your faces before the redeemer.

Dgatwood (talk) 08:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

C.Soon?

English version one is the commonly-used one and can be trivially sourced. The second version is unknown to me and I can't track it down. The 2007 version by "C. Soon" looks like pure Original Research. Robert A.West (Talk) 01:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I took out the C. Soon version, as I too could not find it anywhere and the edit was to persons only edit to date on the Wiki.

Version 2 was added

18:02, 19 December 2005 User:Heptazane (Talk | contribs) (Added alternate version. Version 1 is the most common that I've seen, and V2 (which was originally here) seems like an older version?) (undo)

So version 2 was actually the first version that appeared on the Wikipedia. Since it is actually a French song I am sure that there are regional differences in word interpretation that probably exist in Hymnals etc. I wouldn't worry about the 2 versions too much. What about the last most recent version in Ilocano? That might be beeter served being moved to the Ilocano Wikipedia (if there is such a thing) and creating a sidebar link? Good Luck. Saudade7 19:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I moved the Ilocano (Ilokano?) version to the Ilokano wiki, made a sidebar link, and explained in the edit summary. I don't know why I am even on this page (again!). I translated the French version (which someone else thankfully repaired! Once I am inside French I forget how English is supposed to sound!) Anyway, next time if you think something is funky you can just be proactive and do it yourself. You can never mess up too badly or destroy anything because there is always the history and a whole bunch of people to keep you (and me) honest! Good luck! Saudade7 19:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Here come...?

When I sang this (a few years ago) this line was "here came the Wise Men from the Orient land". Captain Pedant (talk) 20:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read

1904, Nussbaumer. Grey Geezer 22:33, 6 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey Geezer (talk • contribs)

Origin

I do not understand why peope, today in 2010, still keep believing the origin of this song is in France. Do they never read Wikipedia in German or in Italian, Dutch or in any other language?

I will quote here from

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stille_Nacht,_heilige_Nacht

"Zu Heiligabend 1818 führten der Arnsdorfer Dorfschullehrer und Organist Franz Xaver Gruber und der Hilfspfarrer Joseph Mohr in der Kirche St. Nikolaus in Oberndorf bei Salzburg das Weihnachtslied Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht erstmals auf. Mohr hatte den Liedtext bereits 1816 in Mariapfarr im Lungau geschrieben. Gruber komponierte dann vor Weihnachten 1818 eine Melodie zu diesem Gedicht. Über die Motive, die zur Entstehung des Liedes führten, gibt es keine gesicherten Erkenntnisse."

So it was in 1818 in Austria, not in 1847 in France

They are two different songs - you're thinking about the song known as "Silent night" in English. 85.167.70.230 (talk) 01:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Exactly.

Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht, alles schläft is "Silent Night", not "O Holy Night".

Varlaam (talk) 10:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Performers

The list is a little too crowded to provide benefit. A chronogical list with albums and years would be helpful. Tim Long 23:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I actually added a few performers (and took a few away). I think that what the massive list provides is a visual indication of the popularity of this song and the fact that it is used by an amazingly diverse set of vocalists to show-off their vocal range and their particular styles. It is interesting to see that everyone from Bing Crosby to Avril Lavigne (whose version is painful IMO), Maria Callas to Kenny Rogers has covered it. Wonder if all those patriotic American country singers know they are singing a French song? Saudade7 21:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, comparatively, this is a very short list. I invite anyone to go to iTunes and look under O Holy Night and Oh Holy Night. There are about 100 performers not on this list, and iTunes only has a small portion of total recordings available (no Maria Callas version for instance). Saudade7 21:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

A list like this is highly subjective and unencyclopedic. Only notable versions should be mentioned. I argue against the idea of it being a "visual indication of the popularity of the song" on the basis that it impractical for the list to be longer than a few dozen items, and a vast number of songs are popular enough for that. Christmas songs in particular are covered every year by the truckload and by a very wide variety of performers, so none of it is even a surprise. What is particularly notable about this song is not so much its popularity but its difficulty (no roving carolers dare try it), and that should be the focus of attention. Maybe to augment that, we could have a few quotes about how it is a particularly beautiful song or some performer's favorite. --Tysto (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Well apparently someone (since I was last here) has formatted the whole thing and added even more people! There are many more singers listed now than when I was making my statement! I admit it is a bit absurd now, but oh well. The people have spoken. No one wants their favorite band or singer left out! I have divested all interest. Good luck! Saudade7 20:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the list entirely. Wikipedia is not a compendium of all recordings of popular songs. --Tysto (talk) 05:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It was quickly reinstated, so I removed it again (per WP:IINFO). White Christmas (song) had the same problem last time I checked. Any Xmas song or carol that is old or popular enough will get many recordings a year, because every year a large number of Xmas albums are released, so any list will be incomplete and useless due to the sheer size of it.--Boffob (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Now why would'nt you remove the section in this article "Used in television shows" as even less notable for that reasoning? ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

You are right, it should be removed too, but at least that section is readable prose. I'm not completely opposed to such information being included in the article, but it should be limited to sourced notable shows, recordings and other particularly famous perfomances.--Boffob (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed the "selected artists" list again...--Boffob (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I would really like to see the list of performers. Any chance it can be re-listed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.186.221 (talk) 02:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The "Covers" section should be removed. The one listed is way too obscure to be worthy of mention, and the other "covers" are listed in previous sections. Also, technically, a rendition of a classical piece is not a "cover" - that's a term specific to popular music.--Jbarrows (talk) 13:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Why was this list deleted? there is a selected recordings list for almost every song. And wikipedia is a compedium of recordings of popular songs. It's an encylopeadia and it was founded for this exact thing Sweetie candykim (talk) 21:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The notable renditions being limited to a relatively small listing of Billboard Hot Country charts, I added a few to give it more scope. While a comprehensive list of all renditions would be superfluous, a too-limited list of notable renditions would make the category pointless altogether. Hopefully this adds more context.Udpert (talk) 09:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Note: I removed the Frasier reference. The fact that this famous song occurred during an episode of a TV series seemed pretty irrelevant.--Udpert (talk) 23:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe the performances added by Giovannii84 meet the criteria for notability. They should be edited to reflect their significance, with source material added for support.Udpert (talk) 08:38, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm removing some of the above-mentioned additions because the editor hasn't provided reasoning for their notability.Udpert (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I removed another short reference because no reason for notability was given.Udpert (talk) 06:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I removed a reference to Susan Boyle's album "The Gift" because it was listed as being produced by David Foster, when multiple sellers of the CD (Amazon, for instance), list it as being produced by Steve Mac. There were no references to support the Foster statement, so I deleted it.Udpert (talk) 08:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I changed the reference to Caruso, removing the phrase "the greatest tenor who ever lived" because it's not verifiable and seemed excessive. I think that only significant or particularly popular performers should be listed. Bing Crosby's should be added because of its popularity, but I didn't add it here. --CountryMama27 (talk) 01:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Before a list of performers is added and then deleted again, editors should discuss the issue at length and reach a consensus. Vereverde (talk) 00:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

About all those who performed this song, I'd like to mention one of the most beautiful renditions ever by the best Christmas singer ever; Mr. Nate King Cole. Merry Christmas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:80:4002:E090:8C69:1AAB:A3A5:7175 (talk) 17:14, 24 December 2016 (UTC)