Talk:O'Donnell dynasty

International biographies

There are currently four figures carrying the name "O'Donnell" who do not have biographies in English (Guillermo; Joseph Heinrich; Karl and Maximilian Karl Lamoral), although they do have entries in other languages which are linked to this article.

Unfortunately I can't translate enough of these articles to provide English-language versions of them. If anyone can translate German or Spanish, could they possibly create Wiki articles for these figures in English? And does anyone know what "Graf von Tyrconnel" means? Preacherdoc 17:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added a new article, more detailed than the German one, and with a pic of Count (Graf) Maximilian Karl Lamoral O'Donnell von Tyrconnell. Enjoy. Seneschally 07:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

"Graf von Tyrconnell" means Count of Tyrconnell, in German. Tricky 16:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternative coat of arms?

Does anyone know the background of the "alternative" coat of arms? The is about the only place in the world I have seen it. Is it legit? 203.41.250.147 15:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I have never seen it anywhere else and question its legitimacy.Preacherdoc 20:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the Seneschal of Tyrconnell, the so-called "alternative arms" are legitimate. But note: there are several variants of the original O'Donnell arms, bearing variations with a cross, registered in Dublin, Vienna, and Madrid. However, the "alternative" in question here belongs to O'Donnell of Trough, an offshoot of the O'Donnells of Tyrconnell, who descend from Toirdhealbhach an Fhiona, who died in 1423, and whose descendant Hugo O'Donnell, settled in Limerick, and died c. 1610. The arms are: Sable two lions rampant combatant, in chief a sinister hand appaumee, coupled at the wrist between two mullets, and in base a mullet all argent. The crest is: out of a ducal crest coronet or, a naked arm embowed grasping a dart all ppr. Motto: In Hoc Signo Vinces. The origins and pedigree of this family, who owned Trough (Truagh) Castle in County Clare, are documented in the College of Arms in London, and are also described in The Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry of Ireland, page 533, by Sir Bernard Burke (1958 ed.), available under call number IR 929725 B3 in the National Library of Ireland, Kildare Street, Dublin 2. It should be added that these variants are not "alternatives" as each differentiation belongs uniquely to an individual armiger and his direct inheriting descendant. They are not "clan" arms and cannot be legally used by anyone else. Seneschally 20:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

A bit of gratitude (not spam)

Thanks to the creator(s) of this article. This is what wikipedia is about. I don't know how I would learn about the O'Donnells in such a short time without it. The article is important to those interested in their heritage. (71.172.21.160 01:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC))

The first chieftain of mark in the family was Goffraidh (Godfrey, called after Godfrey de Bouillon, 1st Crusader ruler or proto-King of Jerusalem), son of Dónall Dónall Mór Ó Dónaill (d. 1241). He rapidly came to power, with the initial support of the Norman FitzGeralds, in the aftermath of the suppression of the Cathars in France in 1244. Later, the O'Donnell rulers aided Templar knights fleeing to Scotland via Tyrconnell and Sligo, where a Templar priory existed at Ballymote [1], a Percival family estate for the last 300 years. The O'Donnell King of Tyrconnell became known as the Fisher-King, on the Continent, ostensibly due to the export of fish traded for wine in La Rochelle.

Seems very relevant,

It reeks of a nonsense scam about a priory of Sion, grail, Jesus' son etc. Not very reliable sources —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.217.76 (talk) 15:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Vincent

Vincent O´Donnell has never claimed to be of noble origin and no trace of such evidence can be found in the Irish peerage nor with the Chief Herald of Ireland. Rather, he is Secretary of the O´Donnell Clan Association, as his website correctly reveals. If in doubt, check directly with him at his phone in Inver in Donegal, Ireland [1]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.115.26.225 (talk) 20:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge with O'Donnell dynasty

It has been suggested, but no area for discussion was set up by the person who made the suggestion. Therefore, I'm taking care of that bit of administrivia. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 04:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Well it really doesn't matter, but O'Donnell dynasty got a box first and then I copied a few sections from this page to it. Personally I prefer O'Donnell dynasty, which I think is more proper for a formerly sovereign house. O'Donnell of Tyrconnell means one thing in Ireland but to Europeans it may sound like a lesser family, noting how countless continental families use the particle de/von, and it is on the continent that the leading members of the dynasty currently live. DinDraithou (talk) 05:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Merge, but maybe clear up the clutter by making a separate List of people named O'Donnell like the List of people named O'Brien article. - Yorkshirian (talk) 09:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

This merger was a big mistake. The name O'Donnell in Ireland has several quite distinct origins, or septs. The O'Donnells of Tyrconnell are a distinct sept, of former rulers, indeed a noble family, of Tyrconnell. I recommend that you restore a distinct article which would indeed be better titled "House of O'Donnell of Tyrconnell", in line with prevailing wiki-practice for noble and royal houses. See the article Dynasty. Also, in creating a separate List of people named O'Donnell, you have failed to link it to the main article. By the way, "O'Donnell of Tyrconnell" is well-enough known to Europeans - and this "de/von" argument of DinDraithou rather shows a provinicialism that wikipedia should avoid reflecting. The O'Donnells of Tyrconnell have long-established records of historical roles played in France, Spain, Austria, and elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seneschally (talk • contribs) 00:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

There are of course other O'Donnells, but there is really only one O'Donnell "dynasty". Instead of complaining go ahead and do whatever you want... keeping WP:OWN in mind, however. I see you were the creator of O'Donnell of Tyrconnell and 97-100% of your contributions to WP have been O'Donnell related. Maybe you're an expert then. DinDraithou (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Titles

There are historical issues with Kings of Leth Cuinn, and especially Princes of Ulster, so I am removing them. They may be restored with proper citations. Prince(s) of Durlass brings up no search results and may also have to be removed. Finally, Princes of Tyrconnell is equivalent to Kings of Tyrconnell for the purposes of this article. DinDraithou (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

The Prince of Durlass title is referred to in both the Annals of Clonmacnoise, and the Annals of the Four Masters. For example, Cuchaill O'Donnell, Prince of Durlass was slain in 993 (recte 999/1000 A.D.) by Hugh O'Neill, Prince of Tyrone. Prince of Tyrconnell is not the same as King. The O'Donnells were recognised in Ireland and by e.g. Henry II as Kings, but the Popes in the 1600s recognised Red Hugh, Rory, and his brothers as Princes, not Kings. The distinction is important, and historical accuracy is not served by obfuscating these two different ranks of nobility. Other O'Donnell titles not mentioned in the article are Lord of Leskerry, which appears in British archives for 1467-72, and Earl of the Out Isles, as appears in the Irish Accounts of Sir Henry Sidney (see Reports on Manuscripts of Lord De l'Isle & Dudley at Penshurst Palace (HMC, 1925). Sir Hugh Dubh O'Donnell was received in Scotland in 1513 by James IV of Scotland as Prince of Ulster. See MacGettigan's Red Hugh O'Donnell and the Nine Years War, Four Courts Press, Dublin, 2005. Seneschally (talk) 00:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It does not matter if he was received by James IV as (a) Prince of Ulster. It was never an O'Donnell title, nor even properly an O'Neill title. It fell with the decrepit Ulaid three centuries before. DinDraithou (talk) 00:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

You seem to delight in ignoring historical sources and using a POV on the Ulaid? Whatever, let me also add that the King of Leath Cuinn title was used by Domhnall Mor O'Donnell when he ruled much if not most of Ulster Connaught, and Meath. See O'Clery's Book of Genealogies. Let's agree that Irish history is best served by dispassionate recourse to established sources. Titles used by O'Donnells were legitimate if consistent with established norms of the time, under Brehon laws, or if recognised beyond, as by a foreign King, James IV. I would agree if you were to dispute the use of Earl of Tyrconnell by the various collateral pretenders after Hugh Albert O'Donnell (2nd Earl), as it was attainted in 1614 (albeit still recognised on Continent), and was in any event entailed to Donal Oge in ultimate remainder. Mind you, one could theoretically dispute any Gaelic titles after the Treaty of Windsor 1175 Seneschally (talk) 01:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Expansion needed

This article is in need of expansion, and lacks a main narrative. I would help, but I don't have the sources for it. It has become dwarfed by the likes of O'Neill dynasty, O'Flaherty, and O'Donovan. It's alright to go big for an ancient dynasty, in case anyone is wondering. DinDraithou (talk) 23:52, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The Battle of Farsetmore and Treaty of Mellifont linked up etc. What sort of historian would leave them out??86.42.216.224 (talk) 11:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

goffraidh o'donnell

Goffraidh O'Donnell did not do battle against Brian O'Neill at Creadran Cille in 1257. He did battle against an English army led by the Earl Maurice Fitz Gerald. Please review the primary sources and correct this. You can even find the information if you look up "Battle of Creadran Cille" right here on wikipedia. In other words wikipedia is contradicting itself. This discrepancy is in need of redress by a qualified wikipedia user. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.133.88.246 (talk) 16:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Knights Templar?

Under Charities it says O'Donnell helped fleeing Templars to Scotland and the reference link is a hotel? Sorry, it reeks of Dan Brown's pseudo historical fantasies and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.173.217 (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• O'Domhnaill Tyrconnell Coat of Arms.svg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:22, 11 May 2019 (UTC)