Talk:Nur ibn Mujahid

The Gidir, karanle claim

The karanle claim is part of the original source this entire page seems to be based on, as a reference for users "87.214.164.57" and "DejazmachQabridahar", the former of whom removed it and the latter of whom seemed to agree with the removal. I personally doubted he was a karanle Somali for a while (still honestly do) and never got what the anthropologist who claimed that origin for him exactly based his claim on but it is actually straight out of the literature and is supposedly based on Harvel Sabastian (the anthropologist) reviewing him in the Futuh al-Habasha and other sources and coming to the conclusion that he was a Marehan of the "al-Suhawyan" subbranch. The source is "The Dictionary of African Biography (Vol. 1)" and says the following:

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I added that book as a source and I'll leave it at that... Awale-Abdi (talk) 22:44, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

For anyone in doubt and wondering where it came from and also since another editor removed my refrence because it was in the foot note. The fact he is from the Marehan Darood clan is attest from the Traditions in Harar , and comes from the Manuscripts

I will lay this information here Amharische Geschichte eines Emirs von Harar im XVI. Jahrhundert On page 5 German historian Kurt Wendt based on translation of Ethiopian manuscripts , Arabic manuscripts published in Harar and based on hagiographies he obtains from Enrico Cerruli relates that ""Tradition testifies Emir Nur Mujahid was from Somali-Darod tribe of Marehan""

You can see both Kurt Wendt and E.Cerruli in Harvel's rerfrence list.

Ragnimo (talk) 01:39, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Per my comment on WP:Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid, other than the footnote, you've presented a single sentence mention in a singular source. Inclusion would be undue until more mainstream reliable sources are found. Per WP:RSUW "if a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia." --Kzl55 (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

It's a biographical description of him from an encyclopedic dictionary on African Biographies and its reviewed by different African history journals [1] and refrenced by other texts, and not a mere mention. And like i stated on the noticeboard there is no other source you can mention to contest this either or that state otherwise. So the rule of undue weight don't exactly apply here. And a encyclopedic source like that should fit wiki standards of WP:MAINSTREAM.

Ragnimo (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Your additions can only be found in a limited minority of reliable sources and so inclusion would remain undue per Wikipedia guidelines. Lastly, there is no point repeating the same discussion across multiple talk pages, I suggest you stick to ongoing discussion on Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

The source that I will reference in this initial post will be directly from a book written in 1935 by the highly accredited Professor Kurt Wendt, in which he explicitly mentions the ethnic background of Emir Nur as being from the karanle tribe, Gidir karanle clan. This book has been cited in many contemporary works throughout the last 70 years and is widely held as the one of the preeminent scholarships into the "Conquest of Abayssinya" as this book contains the original manuscripts. Furthermore many other prominent historians such as I.M Lewis from the London school of economics and French Professor Robert Ferry have mentioned quite clearly that the Conquest of Abyssinia was accomplished predominantly by the Darod tribe headed by the Marehan, Harti, Gerri, and Bartire. With that being said, I believe it is intellectually dishonest to not include the mention of the Emir's ethnicity since there have been no disputes from other scholarly sources that would contradict this information. What I am proposing is from the Anthropologist Professor Harvel Sebastian and Professor Wendt in which they both say ver batim "Emir Nur Ibn Mujahid is from the Gidir-Somalis karanle Clan" which is what I am proposing to include as an edit.

Since the vast majority of reliable sources do not comment on his ethnicity, inclusion would be undue as it would constitute a minority viewpoint, this was explained by multiple editors at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid. Lastly please refrain from removing other editor's comments on talk pages. --Kzl55 (talk) 07:53, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Of all the sources that ascribe an ethnicity to Nur Ibn Mujahid they consistently reiterate his ethnic background is of the Gidir extraction. As the rule of thumb on including information generally states "If the one who supports the view is very notable in the field, it could be mentioned with attribution." I've already included one of the preeminent notables in the field of East African studies, Professor Wendt, who ascribed the Gidir background to the Emir. And one of the other editors has stated that he will provide a source from Dr E. Ceruli who is exceedingly prominent and a distinguished scholar in regards to the histories of both Ethiopian and Somali regions.

In the words of London School of Economics Professor I.M Lewis, who has also written extensively about Somalia in many of his various books states "Dr Cerulli is the doyen of Cushitic studies and the founder of modern ethnographic studies of the Somali, in which he was the first to adopt the rigorous standard of oriental scholarship. All those who now work in the field owe a great debt to Cerulli's pioneer endeavor and to his many brilliant contributions"

I am including this as a preface to the addition of Dr. Cerulli's "Documenti arabi per la storia dell'Etiopia" in which he explicitly states that Nur Ibn Mujahid is indeed of the Marehan extraction. Which would undoubtedly make this a significant contribution from a notable scholar in this specific field of study thus warranting contribution into this Wikipedia page.--CSI99283 (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CSI99283 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Of all the sources that ascribe an ethnicity to Nur Ibn Mujahid...

If the majority of reliable sources discussing this individual do not comment on his ethnicity, which is the case here [2], then adding a minority viewpoint found in limited sources would be undue for Wikipedia. There is no reason to comment on ethnicity if majority of reliable sources do not discuss it. This was thoroughly discussed at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid. Lastly, please stick to one talk page for this discussion, it makes no sense to have two identical copies of the same discussion running across two talk pages. --Kzl55 (talk) 19:00, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

We don't have to mention the information explicitly, It's all about the wording. So for example, it should be worded as: "Some sources state that he was of Marrehan-Darod extraction." If we have a few sources, then to include it is valid. The wording can be debated later on. However there is no doubt that there is academic literature that clearly state him to be Marrehan and therefore that should be included. I will very soon collect them and add them and then Ragnimo and others should edit the article to reflect that. 86.18.37.245 (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

It would still be a minority view and undue as explained multiple times and by several editors both here and on Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid. Edit warring, or continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from the community is considered disruptive editing and may lead to your accounts being blocked. --Kzl55 (talk) 20:37, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

I created a new account since it makes it much easier to communicate. I just want to say that there is no consensus. That's just not the case. There is a difference of opinion and our job is to resolve that. There were 3 editors including yourself that was opposed. That doesn't make it a consensus because many of us think that a tentative and not explicit mention is justifiable. Having said that, User: CSI99283 and myself are willing to change the wording. We are not proposing to state him as Marehan explicitly. However, we can easily state that he was 'tentatively' Marehan and the problem will be resolved. The only references that mention his identity all mention he was Marehan Darod. Hopefully within the next few days I place them here. Sade Tan (talk) 00:02, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

• A quick search on Google Books yields +30 pages of results for Nur ibn Mujahid [3], and yet not a single one of them mentions this ethnic clan claim [4]. I stand by my previous comments, three citations would still be a minority view point if the overwhelming majority of reliable sources discussing this topic are not commenting on his ethnicity. Lastly, off-Wikipedia canvassing will not be tolerated, you can not brute-force minority view points by attempting to game the system. Both CSI99283 and Sade Tan were reported at ANI Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Off-Wikipedia_canvassing_on_Horn_of_Africa_topics. --Kzl55 (talk) 11:06, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

First of all, that is an absolutely wild allegation made in bad faith. I used to frequent the Nur ibn Mujahid article for a long time before I ever chose to register. I never accused you of cheating or doing something questionable nor did I ever force my opinion on anyone else. These are discussions going on these boards and I kept it there. If I wanted to force it, these discussions might not even be happening. Someone could have forced edit the article, but that's not happening is it? Unacceptable allegations. Sade Tan (talk) 11:15, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Hey Ragnimo, I'll give you a link to the excerpt in which Dr Cerulli explicitly states Emir Nur's ethnic background as Marehan Darod. This excerpt is from his book titled "Storia della Somalia. L'Islām in Somalia. Il Libro degli Zengi" Cerulli Excerpt

Of The Scholarly Mentions Of Emir Nur's Ethnic Origins, He Has Been Identified As Marehan by such luminaries as Cerulli, Wendt, and Sebastian.

Furthermore just to clearly emphasize the importance and prominence that Dr Cerulli holds in this field of study I will also include the Cambridge University Press Publication that Professor Lewis from the London School of Economics wrote about his extensive contributions.

The level of prominent sources that have attributed an ethnic origin to Emir Nur (Being Marehan Darod) is the overwhelming majority relative to the sources that have commented on his ethnic origins. Therefore the claim that Emir Nur is from the Marehan Darod clan is in fact the widely accepted view in the upper echelons of Academics in this field of study. These are peer reviewed books by renowned scholars and not in any way a fringe idea, which makes the edit of the ethnic origin of the Emir due. CSI99283 (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2021

I am hereby making this edit request to restore my previous edit which was modified a few times due to repeated disruptive changes in the ethnic background of Emir Nur ibn Mujahid. The source that I cited in my previous edit is still present which explicitly corroborates the ethnic background of Emir Nur. This source that I provided to authenticate my edit was based on pristine scholarly work that has been cited in many contemporary books which was not altered by the most recent user however this individual altered the ethnic background of the Emir.

This reference below is the source that I wrote in the wiki page and in page 488 there is an excerpt that says Emir Nur hails from the Darod-Somali Marehan clan group.

Wendt, Kurt (1935). "Amharische Geschichte eines Emirs von Harar im XVI. Jahrhundert". Orientalia (Orientalia, vol. 4 ed.). GBPress. 4: 488. JSTOR 43581078. CSI99283 (talk) 22:51, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done, community consensus was that this addition is undue as its a minority view. The vast majority of reliable sources do not comment on ethnicity of this individual. Please see Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Shortly I will provide at least 3 sources that state his ethnicity as Somali and his people as Marrehan Darod and then the users can reedit the page in light of the new sources. I will be back soon to clarify these issues further xx. 86.18.37.245 (talk) 14:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Copying my response on Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Nur_ibn_Mujahid: As explained multiple times by a number of editors above, inclusion of a viewpoint held by a limited number of sources is undue as its a minority view point. Per WP:RSUW "if a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia". If the majority of reliable sources do not comment on his ethnicity then Wikipedia should not either. I suggest you put this to rest. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:01, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 April 2021

addition of the Emir's ethnic background based on the reliable source that I provided in my previous edit. The change I am proposing is "Emir Nur was considered a saint from Harar, from the Darod-Somalis Marrehan clan.

This is stated in an excerpt on p.488 in the source Wendt, Kurt (1935). "Amharische Geschichte eines Emirs von Harar im XVI. Jahrhundert". Orientalia (Orientalia, vol. 4 ed.). GBPress. 4: 488. JSTOR 43581078 that I have already included into the page's references. CSI99283 (talk) 00:23, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. This clearly seems to be the topic of the discussion above. Therefore, as per the very clear instructions for edit requests, make sure that the change is not controversial before making a request. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:15, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Nur's ethnic origin

@Socialwave597 Do not try and label Nur ibn Mujahid's background as "disputed". Your edit has been reverted to its original state until once we reach a consensus and have this settled. Replayerr (talk) 21:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Replayerr Are you serious? Gebreyes never says he was a Marehan or that Suhawyan was Marehan, please read the source cited. "It might be the name of a tribe of Afar or Somali, which were claimed to be under the territory of ʿAdal."[5] So far the sources in the article says that he was either a Harari, a Somali or an Afar, looks disputed to me as we have three different reliable sources stating that he was of different ethnic backgrounds. Socialwave597 (talk) 01:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

his ethnicity is not disputed, the chronicles of Gelawdewos literally give us his clan the Suhawayn of the Marrehan Somalis, this is agreed upon by many authors, claiming Nur as Harar I is one thing, but saying the Suhawayn is an Afar clan is beyond ridicule Yubudirsi (talk) 18:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Take it up with the citation then. The author who translated the source says that Suhawayn was an Afar or a Somali tribe (see quote above), yet TriSolar deceptively misquoted the source in this edit[6] to say that the source said Marehan. Your assertion that the "tribe of Suhawayn" in the chronicles refers to the Marehan is based on absolutely nothing. The only thing we have connecting him to the Marehan is oral traditions recorded by Enrico Cerulli. What authors are you talking about? If you have sources then cite them in the article but do not engage in WP:SYNTH. Socialwave597 (talk) 22:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Fringe theories, you can find sources for any claim that doesnt mean it should be included, there's even references. They are fringe and inaccurate. This is why the articles go by the mainstream view and as editors, it is our duty to analyze sources. Articles go by the mainstream view.Mainstream sources links Nur's background to the Marehan clan of the greater Somali people. Get a consensus on the talk page before restoring content. If we include all fringe theories then Wikipedia won't be taken seriously. I agree that this citation was misleading but was not of my doing.

From the mainstream views in this article. Nur bin Mujahid is of Somali origin.

According to to several oral traditions recorded by Enrico Cerulli, Nur ibn Mujahid was a Somali that hailed from the Marehan subclan of the greater Darod clan.[7] (Page 65) Wendt also attests to this after reading Tārīh al-Muģāhidīn [8](Page 5) Enrico Cerulli, again states that Nur is of Marehan origin.[9](Page 167) According to Doresse, Nour ibn Mujahid is believed to have belonged to the Marrehân group.[10](Page 231). From these mainstream sources, anthropologist Harvel Sebastian later concludes that Nur ibn Mujahid is of the "Ahl Suhawayn" clan of the Marehan tribe of the Somali [11] (Page 118).

The final source says it frankly and answers your question. Replayerr (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

As stated earlier, the only scholar who connects Nur to the Marehan is Enrico Cerulli and your sources prove that. On the first note of Kurt Wendt's book (pg 488) he cites Cerulli for the claim of Marehan ancestry, and says that it came from oral history not the "History of the Mujahideen". Doresse also cites "CERULLI, Documenti, p. 89-91." for the Marehan ancestry (note 9) and Sebastian also includes "Documenti arabi per la storia dell'Etiopia" by Cerulli in his Bibliography. All of these authors merely quoting Cerulli's claims. Socialwave597 (talk) 01:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

not only does cerulli quote Oral traditions but also the chronicles of Gelawdewos, your point is invalid Yubudirsi (talk) 05:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Where does he say that Suhawayn=Marehan? Socialwave597 (talk) 20:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

his ethnicity is not disputed, the chronicles of Gelawdewos literally give us his clan the Suhawayn of the Marrehan Somalis, this is agreed upon by many authors Yubudirsi (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)