Talk:Norwegian First Division/Archive 1
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Archive 1 |
Professional vs. semi-professional
There is an ongoing dispute regarding whether Adeccoligaen is a professional or a semi-professional league. This has implications outside this article, as for instance the league's former top scorer Kenneth Kvalheim cannot be included due to notability guidelines unless the league is professional. In this article, a citation is required for the claim "18 players with a professional contract of minimum 180,000 kroner a year". It is agreed that this would indicate that the league is semi-professional, so if the citation is provided, the dispute is resolved. Until this is provided, the article will hold that the league is professional, not semi-professional, as current citations show that (1) explicitly, "professional contracts" are required for all players, (2) there are minimum wage requirements, and (3) players must be given a minimum of 20% employment; foreigners must be given 100% employment. Moreover, media commonly report that a "professional license" is required in order for a club to play in Adeccoligaen, although the official phrasing is "club license".[1]Narssarssuaq (talk) 17:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- Erh - that the clubs needs 18 professional players with a minimum-wage of 180,000 NOK is from the citations you added to the article. Did you actually read them? But if you want this league included in the list of fully pro leagues, WT:FPL is the place to discuss it. Mentoz86 (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I thought you were referring to 18 professional players in the league as a whole. If 18 players are required for each club at what in fact amounts to a full Norwegian wage, it is a professional league, WT:FPL or not. You need to provide at least one notable citation for your claim that the league is semi-professional: several citations have been provided that indicate that the league is professional. Narssarssuaq (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I re-phrased the sentence to "Formally, Adeccoligaen is a professional league" - leaving it open whether it is professional or semi-professional in practice. Narssarssuaq (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- What is correct here is that the clubs needs a professional contract with the majority of their players (those five players on the B-list don't need a professional contract), but since the minimum-wage is 180,000 NOK it is infact only a semi-professional league, and that is what should be written in the article. In your initial post you wrote "if the citation is provided, the dispute is resolved", but my claims is supported by the citations you provided - shouldn't the dispute then be resolved ? Mentoz86 (talk) 09:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have added the view that a significant proportion of the players are semi-professional - but a [citation needed] tag has been included, as it is not self-evident. For the record, the Scottish Football League has some of the same problems of definition connected to it. In sum, the reason for the disagreement is that "professional" is ambiguous: it may (1) refer to the formal status of the league as defined by the football association, and (2) refer to the actual employment status of most players. Also, (3) it has not been substantiated through citations or else that a significant proportion of Adeccoligaen players are not full-time players. Maybe you have some inside knowledge that most people are not aware of when it comes to actual contracts in this league. If you do, you may delete the citation needed tag without adding a citation. Narssarssuaq (talk) 11:22, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Your example from Scotland is indeed a good one; the Scottish First Division has in the recent years had one or two semi-pro clubs, and it has been some heavy discussions at WT:FPL whether it should be removed from the list of fully pro leagues. Similarily, when Sarpsborg 08 was promoted to Tippeligaen, they became the first semi-professional club in Tippeligaen, and in this article from 2009 you can read about how many professional players Sarpsborg 08 had in 2009 (13) and 2010 (0), and as far as I know they still only use semi-pros and I believe Sandnes Ulf has been using the same approach after their promotion. You wont find a source for a claim that "Adeccoligaen is a semi-professional league", but we do know that the players needs professional contract with a minimum wage of 180,000, and the club needs atleast 18 on a professional contract to obtain a "profflisens". I believe you need better proof to call this league "professional" instead of "semi-professional". The article from Dagbladet shows an example of how it is in most clubs at the second tier, but that it was uncommon for clubs at the first tier to be semi-professional. Mentoz86 (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- OK, that citation settles it; no crystal clear definition of a "professional league" exists - and although I think the league's formal status is more important to communicate than its de facto status, I can see the arguments to the contrary. Narssarssuaq (talk) 15:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Your example from Scotland is indeed a good one; the Scottish First Division has in the recent years had one or two semi-pro clubs, and it has been some heavy discussions at WT:FPL whether it should be removed from the list of fully pro leagues. Similarily, when Sarpsborg 08 was promoted to Tippeligaen, they became the first semi-professional club in Tippeligaen, and in this article from 2009 you can read about how many professional players Sarpsborg 08 had in 2009 (13) and 2010 (0), and as far as I know they still only use semi-pros and I believe Sandnes Ulf has been using the same approach after their promotion. You wont find a source for a claim that "Adeccoligaen is a semi-professional league", but we do know that the players needs professional contract with a minimum wage of 180,000, and the club needs atleast 18 on a professional contract to obtain a "profflisens". I believe you need better proof to call this league "professional" instead of "semi-professional". The article from Dagbladet shows an example of how it is in most clubs at the second tier, but that it was uncommon for clubs at the first tier to be semi-professional. Mentoz86 (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have added the view that a significant proportion of the players are semi-professional - but a [citation needed] tag has been included, as it is not self-evident. For the record, the Scottish Football League has some of the same problems of definition connected to it. In sum, the reason for the disagreement is that "professional" is ambiguous: it may (1) refer to the formal status of the league as defined by the football association, and (2) refer to the actual employment status of most players. Also, (3) it has not been substantiated through citations or else that a significant proportion of Adeccoligaen players are not full-time players. Maybe you have some inside knowledge that most people are not aware of when it comes to actual contracts in this league. If you do, you may delete the citation needed tag without adding a citation. Narssarssuaq (talk) 11:22, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- What is correct here is that the clubs needs a professional contract with the majority of their players (those five players on the B-list don't need a professional contract), but since the minimum-wage is 180,000 NOK it is infact only a semi-professional league, and that is what should be written in the article. In your initial post you wrote "if the citation is provided, the dispute is resolved", but my claims is supported by the citations you provided - shouldn't the dispute then be resolved ? Mentoz86 (talk) 09:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- I re-phrased the sentence to "Formally, Adeccoligaen is a professional league" - leaving it open whether it is professional or semi-professional in practice. Narssarssuaq (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I thought you were referring to 18 professional players in the league as a whole. If 18 players are required for each club at what in fact amounts to a full Norwegian wage, it is a professional league, WT:FPL or not. You need to provide at least one notable citation for your claim that the league is semi-professional: several citations have been provided that indicate that the league is professional. Narssarssuaq (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Request move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved. Rettetast (talk) 07:00, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Adeccoligaen → Norwegian First Division – Adeccoligaen is no longer the name as the sponsor contract with Adecco has expired. 1. divisjon is now the official name. At least until a new sponsor comes in. Kjello (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support The constant change of names of the leagues to match sponsors is creating havoc in the naming of leagues and seasons in Norway. A consistent use of non-sponsor names will eliminate the chaos, and the division is commonly referred to by non-sponsored names to such a degree that following WP:COMMONNAME very well may supersede any official (sponsored) name. Arsenikk (talk) 20:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Orphaned references in Norwegian First Division
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Norwegian First Division's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bakke":
- From 2015 Tippeligaen: "Geir Bakke ny Sarpsborg-trener". http://www.vg.no/. VG. Retrieved 10 December 2014.
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suggested) (help) - From 2015 Norwegian First Division: "Eirik Bakke ny hovedtrenar fra 2015". http://www.sogndalfotball.no/. Sogndal Fotball. Retrieved 3 December 2014.
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: External link in
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I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:00, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Norwegian First Division which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:46, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
Requested move 18 December 2018
Aborted attempt to correct outcome of RM above which has since been reopened and so this closed one is just distracting.
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The result of the move request was: No consensus early close per SNOW by nom, reluctantly. The argument that this is an urgent exception (use of name not used in English sources is blatant violation of COMMONNAME) to immediately reconsider after the previous RM is not gaining traction. В²C ☎ 18:23, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
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- Hold on. This was speedy closed as withdrawn, yet an admin has moved the page? That makes no sense. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:14, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- The closer of that previous RM was persuaded to revert/reopen, much to his credit. —В²C ☎ 22:35, 18 December 2018 (UTC)