Talk:Norway/Archive 4

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Opening sentence / Country name

"The Kingdom of Norway (Nynorsk: Kongeriket Noreg; Bokmål: Kongeriket Norge) is a Nordic country west of Sweden on the Scandinavian Peninsula."

It's a bit long. Aren't there better ways of describing the "Norge/Noreg" situation? Besides, the links to Nynorsk and Bokmål are both redirects to Norwegian language, and it is a bit misleading to give impression of two separate articles, when there's only one. 14:32, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How about deleting the parentheses, like it was before: "The Kingdom of Norway is a Nordic country west of Sweden on the Scandinavian Peninsula."   The Norwegian versions of the country name are listed in the infobox anyway and, as long as Bokmål/Nynorsk are stated as official languages, it may not be necessary to explain the Norge/Noreg situation any further. --Eddi 01:30, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's what I wanted, but it was reverted. 10:20, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The opinions could be polled here and, if conclusive, support one or the other version. --Eddi 20:26, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My take is rephrasing the "west of Sweden" statement. While factually true, the same could be said if we wrote "west of China" or "east of Greenland". Using "bordering Russia, Finland and Sweden, with territorial waters bordering Danish and Brtish" would be less patronizing of Norway. As it is, enough people think Norway is the capital of Sweden, and using a "Sweden is a point of reference that more people know of" as an argument would be odd - considering how Russia is also immideately east of Norway, and, I should think, rather well known. I know it doesen't exactly shorten the opening sentece, but this is a hot point for me. --TVPR 09:16, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Country

I don't understand what's the big deal. Could someone please start discussing here instead of in the history? If this is part of a bigger discussion please insert a link to that discussion. Thanks. --Eddi 00:08, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[1]. Gzornenplatz 01:00, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll follow the discussion at the Village Pump. --Eddi 01:11, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Judging from discussions here and there, the Template:Infobox Country seems to be most popular. I'm now testing it on Norway. Please have a look and return with your thoughts.
The template has many variables that may be used plainly or manipulated, see for example the Area Total, Constitution / Independence, and Internet TLD rows – with a slightly unelegant solution for the TLDs. --Eddi 23:40, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There hasn't been much editing lately, so I wonder: Is the layout acceptable? If all details are copied correctly, we should perhaps delete Template:Norway infobox. --Eddi 19:04, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Population

Census

Does Norway have census? The infobox indicates a census of 2001, but Norwegian authorities keeps a continuous count (from births and deaths), and does not hold census in the manner of other some other countries, as far as I know. 06:58, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The last Norwegian census was held in 2001. Although it focused on standard of living, employment, education, standard of residences, size of households, temporary location of residents etc., it was indeed a census counting the population. It was proposed to be the last Norwegian census ever, and so far it has been... See http://www.ssb.no/fob/ --Eddi (Talk) 23:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Source of population estimates

It has been argued to use the population from the list of countries by population. Why should it be used, if it isn't the most recent estimate? The first list on that page is taken from the 2003 edition of the CIA World Factbook, and even if it was taken from the 2004 edition it would be far from updated. The second list is dated January 2005, but the source is not stated. By the way, the recently reverted population estimate did not use the population from the list at all. In my opinion the best source for the article on Norway would be the official Statistics Norway. For the complete list, the CIA World Factbook or something else could be used. --Eddi (Talk) 13:48, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

English Wikipedia and Norway

It is so much strange things written about Norway on English Wikipedia that the articles cannot be taken very seriously. E.g. is Svalbard and Jan Mayen listed as dependencies and the coat of arm pictured has even never been the coat of arm of the kingdom (only used by the king before WW II). When I am trying to correct these mistakes the corrections are being reversed by people who does not have the simplest understanding about what they are talking about. Therefore I am giving up this project. My suggestion to those of you who will use English Wikipedia, check the sources or try Norwegian Wikipedia - it is at least written by natives!

The lion is the official coat of arms of the Norwegian State. Caplex, a Norwegian encyclopedia says so. For more evidence, just look at the logos at Odin(government website), the pages of the Norwegian military or the official information site of Norway.

Jakro64 08:16, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Information on the Coat of Arms can be found here: [2]. This is as official as it gets. --Cybbe 23:56, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Better map?

Does anyone have a map with a better projection? As it is, the "goathead"-part is completely squished and the entire thing looks slightly bizarre. --Kaleissin 13:09:53, 2005-08-31 (UTC)

You could have a look in the Image namespaces at commons (starting at "Norw"), en: (starting at "Norw"), no: (all) or nn: (all), or ask at the Norwegian village pumps no:Tinget or nn:Samfunnshuset. For the general geography there are at least en:Image:No-map.png and nn:Image:Noreg kart.jpg, and for an overview of the counties commons:Image:Norway counties.jpg and no:Image:Norgesfylker.png. By the way, which map are you referring to – the one in the infobox or that in the Counties section? --Eddi (Talk) 14:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

The one in the infobox. I've lived up there so I'm a little protective of maps of the area, it so often get turned into a shapeless blob. Where would be a good place to discuss the reason for the russian wedge into eastern Finnmark? There are so many potential places it could go. Here, or an article on Finnmark, or czarist Russia, or the Russian orthodox church... --Kaleissin 11:57:48, 2005-09-03 (UTC)

Yes, maps viewed from the equator tend to be somewhat distorted that far north. For discussion of wedges I suggest no:Diskusjon:Norge, no:Diskusjon:Norges geografi, or no:Diskusjon:Finnmark. I notice there is a Russian church at Boris Gleb at the end of the wedge, east of Bjørnevatn. But isn't the Norwegian wedge between Russia and Finland really the peculiar one? --Eddi (Talk) 14:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Boris Gleb is the reason alright. The other wedge would have been a lot less wedgy if it weren't for that church. The big wedge follows a river southwards and iirc there were settlers from southern Norway living all along it. --Kaleissin 16:09:43, 2005-09-03 (UTC)

How does one define early?

As per a recent edit summary, how is "early in the century" defined? Ten first years? Twenty? --Kaleissin 11:57:48, 2005-09-03 (UTC)

Irrelevant. --84.234.215.241 19:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Human Rights in Norway

I've noticed there is no "Human Rights in Norway" article. The treatment of natives, racism and discrimination in today, and the controversy regarding Arne Treholdt and others might deserve a mentioning. NWOG 12:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Then be bold and add it - allthought considering the vast maajority of norwegians are natives, I'm not sure what you mean by that part of your comment (unless off course you mean the sami, who pretty much get treated like royaltiy these days). WegianWarrior 13:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Ho hum, "royalty" is a bit of an overstatement. We are definately among the luckier minorities of the world today, but it took some fighting and a good deal of cruel discrimination before we got there. Anyhoo, the Treholt case is worthy of mention, though I'm not taking the time to read up and add today, it would be fun to do so later.

Also: Norway's treatment of refugees runs counter to UN regulations, though this is also true for many other Western countries (User: Misha BB)

I suppose this is a valid subject in present as well as the past, and should not be brushed off bluntly. Such an article or section could discuss the treatment of e.g. arrestees, children, disabled, elderly, ethnic minorities, homosexuals, immigrants, political and religious dissidents, poor people, prisoners, women, etc. through different periods in time. All of these and others were or are treated badly in various ways by the Norwegian state or significant portions of the public. However, this being a sensitive issue, any coverage of the subject needs substantial reference material. I can't provide any references and therefore I can't contribute to an article. --Eddi (Talk) 03:41, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

"The constitution forbids ..., and the use of torture." As I recall, the constitution says: "Pinligt Forhør maa ikke finde Sted (§96 http://www.lovdata.no/all/tl-18140517-000-006.html)" = "torture should not be used during interrogation". AFAIK, the constitution does not forbid torture as a penalty.

The swastika is not forbidden directly. The law forbids hateful or discriminating statements made in public, either by words or symbols. The link refers to an article in a norwegian newspaper. It says that norwegian nazis have raised a nazi flag in some company's pole. I'm not sure you would get convicted after §135a for that.

...Your understanding of the constitution is incorrect. The translation you refer to does not refelct the norwegian meaning of the phrase "maa ikke". The correct translation is "must not", and the english translation would be "torture must not be used during interrogation". Also, the wording refers to interrogation, not punishment. Torture in any form or for any reason i s strictly forbidden in Norway.

Oslo not closer to Rome

Unless we include Svalbard, which is a special case which does not qualify as "northern regions" (what regions?). Take a close look at a map. From Oslo, Rome is farther away than any point on mainland Norway -by a clear margin. Therefore, I suggest this: Oslo in fact being closer to Paris than to Vardø. Because that is actually a correct statement. Orcaborealis 22:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, if your statement is actually correct, I see no problem with it. Is Vardø Norwegian for Svalbard (I'm American, the only link I have to Norway being that my girlfriend is Norwegian)?Tommstein 00:51, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Nevermind that stupid question, I looked at the article and now see what Vardø is. I don't think being closer to Paris is all that impressive though, so maybe the sentence should just be completely removed.Tommstein 00:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the statement is a misrepresentation of what we learned in school, i.e. if one were to turn Norway around its southern point, then the farthest point would almost reach Rome. The southern point is Lindesnes (not Oslo), and the farthest point from Lindesnes is close to Vardø. To check our school lesson quickly and crudely we may first calculate only the differences in latitude (north-south) by simple subtraction, which gives a distance from Lindesnes to Vardø of 12.23° and from Lindesnes to Rome of 16.20°, i.e. quite different (see data below). If we calculate great-circle distances instead, counting longitude as well as latitude using non-Euclidean geometry, the distances are 15.75° or 1752 km Lindesnes-Vardø, and 16.53° or 1838 km Lindesnes-Rome, i.e. quite similar. This may or may not be worth mentioning in the article. --Eddi (Talk) 06:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC) / 18:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Item	Location	Lat. (° N)	Long. (° E)	Angular distance (°) to						Great-circle distance (km) to
				NC	V	O	L	P	R	NC	V	O	L	P	R
NC	North Cape	71.17	25.79	--	1.87	12.77	15.14	24.82	30.02	--	208	1420	1684	2760	3339
V	Vardø	70.33	30.85	1.87	--	13.27	15.75	25.34	29.93	208	--	1476	1752	2818	3329
O	Oslo	59.93	10.75	12.77	13.27	--	2.56	12.08	18.06	1420	1476	--	284	1343	2009
L	Lindesnes	58.10	7.28	15.14	15.75	2.56	--	9.68	16.53	1684	1752	284	--	1077	1838
P	Paris	48.87	2.33	24.82	25.34	12.08	9.68	--	9.95	2760	2818	1343	1077	--	1107
R	Rome	41.90	12.48	30.02	29.93	18.06	16.53	9.95	--	3339	3329	2009	1838	1107	--

lat.=latitude; long.=longitude

Exactly. So the statement "Oslo being closer to Rome" is false, by a good margin. Even if we use Lindesnes, the statement is false. This is the free encyclopedia - false statements are of course unacceptable. If anyting, one of it's purposes is to falsify myths. Here is a suggestion that might underline the elongated shape: Vardø is the easternmost town in Western Europe and is in fact east of Istanbul. This is correct, if we use the standard definitions of western Europe. Or, we could just mention the distance from north to south (1770 km, isn't it?). Or, we could just drop it and delete the sentence. And Tommstein, as I see it, where we happen to live is of no importance. Orcaborealis 15:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I was just saying, my expertise on this probably pales badly compared to that of an actual Norwegian. I say, whip out the most impressive fact(s) that can be found, and stick it/them in. If none are too impressive, then we might as well not bother. Although that 'east of Istanbul' fact is impressive to me (what comes after Turkey, Iraq?). Saying that the southernmost point as almost as close to Rome than Vardø is also impressive, even if that southermost point isn't anything special and Vardø isn't a straight shot north; that highlights how long the country is.Tommstein 06:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)