Talk:Nohra concentration camp

Nohra concentration camp has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 12, 2023. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Nohra concentration camp appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 May 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that all inmates of Nohra concentration camp, the first Nazi concentration camp, were communists?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/May. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Nohra concentration camp.

Wikipedia

Sources for expansion

(were for 90th anniversary of opening). —Kusma (talk) 15:58, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Heimatschule Mitteldeutschland postcard: https://www.akpool.de/ansichtskarten/26203940-ansichtskarte-postkarte-nohra-thueringen-heimatschule-mitteldeutschland

Photograph by c:Category:Franz Vältl, will become PD on 1 January 2024. —Kusma (talk) 12:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passed. (t · c) buidhe 21:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Nohra concentration camp/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Buidhe (talk · contribs) 23:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a. (reference section):

b. (citations to reliable sources):

c. (OR):

d. (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a. (major aspects):

b. (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

The first sentence of the article could be rewritten to reduce redundancy, such as the following: "Nohra was the first of the early Nazi concentration camps in Germany, established 3 March 1933 in a school at an airfield in Nohra, Thuringia." This is similar to other GA articles such as Flossenbürg, Gusen, Kaufering, etc. and indeed many sources refer to the camp as "Nohra" in prose.
Done.
I would not cite press articles for details on the camp's existence, although they are ok for what happened to it afterwards.
Removed Zeiss 2003/Brandt2013 for this purpose. Wagner 2023a is a reprint from a book. Per WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT, I prefer to cite the MDR "news" version, but I believe the whole text is the same as that at "Jens-Christian Wagner: Nohra: Thüringens erstes KZ. In: Moderne und Provinz. Weimarer Republik in Thüringen 1918–1933. Mitteldeutscher Verlag, Halle 2022, ISBN 978-3-96311-627-8, pp. 208–212."
That's fine. I agree Wagner is generally a good source, I wrote the wiki article on him. (t · c) buidhe 02:48, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Related question: is "Unlike most other concentration camps, Nohra was not administered by the SA or SS, but by the Thuringia interior ministry" actually accurate? According to the sources cited at early camps many of them were not run by the SA or SS.
Indeed, the contrast is between Nohra as one of the early camps and the later camps that most people know. I have reworded this.
Do you know why there is a discrepancy in the closing date for the camp?
I haven't the faintest clue why. Generally, Wohlfeld is the standard authority on this camp (that's probably the reason he was asked to write the article in Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945) so I would like to believe what he says, but Wagner is the head of the Buchenwald memorial so he is also a pretty good authority (and the May date is also given by Zeiss, who interviewed Wagner's predecessor at Buchenwald, Volkhard Knigge [de] for her article). July 1933 is only cited (in the source) to a general work on the history of Thuringia from the 1970s, so that is the least reliable source and perhaps I should just drop this one. Wohlfeld and Wagner also disagree on the number of prisoners moved to Ichtershausen on the final day. My gut feeling is that the later day is correct for the closure, but that there was a mass moving of prisoners on both dates. Do you have a suggestion what to do here?
No, although I might omit mention of the third date. (t · c) buidhe 03:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. —Kusma (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(t · c) buidhe 23:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks buidhe, I have made some changes in response to your comments. Please let me know if you have further suggestions for improvement. —Kusma (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source checks:

"consisted of SA, SS, and Stahlhelm members" might be considered a bit too close to the source "consisted of members of the SA, the SS, and the Stahlhelm". Otherwise no issues found.
Rephrased. —Kusma (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Other comment:

List of prisoners I would consider prosifying this and adding descriptions of why they were arrested. You could list the notable people as examples of broader classes of detainees. For example, "Half of the KPD representatives to the Landtag of Thuringia were prisoners of Nohra, including Fritz Gäbler." "German resistance organizers such as Richard Eyermann were also imprisoned at the camp" etc. (t · c) buidhe 03:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Moved all of the list entries into the prose, and added a few descriptions. —Kusma (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing: I'm not sure about the bundesstiftung-aufarbeitung.de as a source. Some of them fail verification (Scharf's entry doesn't mention Nohra) or seem incorrect (i.e. implying that Gäbler was imprisoned in Nohra in February). I can't find any source that looks better for Kröber (whose entry doesn't mention Nohra) or Steudner. Wohlfeld 2009 does verify the first five names. (t · c) buidhe 01:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: Most of these citations were originally there to verify the years of birth and death. As I have now dropped those, I have removed the redundant citations, especially as you correctly point out that not all of them verify the Nohra imprisonment explicitly. We are left with Klinz and Steudner, where Nohra is mentioned both times (just ctrl-F). For Steudner, there is the claim he was imprisoned in Nohra February-April 1933, which can't be quite true, but it seems likely he was imprisoned somewhere in February, then moved to Nohra as soon as that opened (and I assume the same is true for Gäbler). —Kusma (talk) 08:37, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: Trying to find out more about Steudner in Nohra, i came across a claim that the government of Thuringia considered using the site in 1946, which I have now added. Anyway, do you think there is anything left to do? —Kusma (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, if it was being cited for life dates that makes more sense. (t · c) buidhe 21:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.