Talk:Nisf Jubeil

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A fact from Nisf Jubeil appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 July 2012 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that in 1207 the Palestinian village Nisf Jubeil was a possession of the Knights Hospitaller called "Casale Seingebis"?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2012/July. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Nisf Jubeil.

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Mix-up

There seems to be an (old-time?) mix-up between the Khirbet Nus Jbeil outside Far'un, and *this* Nisf Jubeil. Latin and French speaker would be most welcome. This sentence sounded strange:

In 1207 the Knights Hospitallers were granted the village by Lady Juliana of Caesarea along with nearby Far'un

Well, Far'un is not *that* near. But Khirbet Nus Jbeil and Far'un are near. Did Clermont-Ganneau (and everyone afterwards) get it wrong? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 00:00, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

........

From Clermont-Ganneau p. 335 it is clear that the Nifs Jubeil he is taking about is the one by Far'un. Compare with SWP map XI. According to him, Far'un is the Crusader Pharaon, Irtah (today a redir to Tulkarem, see Talk:Tulkarm#Irtah) is Crusader Artais, Fardisya was Phardesi (already in the article, thanks to Khalidi!), and Keffa (just a ruin on SWP 11) was Crusader Caphet. But this means that Röhricht was probably wrong! He clearly writes "nunc Nufs Jebul" in 1893, p. 205, No. 768, citing the above Clermont-Ganneau. And the only Nufs Jebul which existed then was *this* one, while Clermont-Ganneau clearly refer to the then ruin by Far'un.

However, Boas p. 82 writes: "In 1207/08 the Hospitallers received from Lady Juliana of Caesarea the villages of Pharaon (Far´un) and Seingibis (Khirbat Nisf Jubail)" cited to note 67 (p. 276): Cart. des Hosp., no. 1251; and Röhricht, 1893, RHH p. 220, no. 819 and that last ref. refers to Conder, 1890, p. 30….(which must be a typo for p. 35)

In any case: Boas writes Khirbat Nisf Jubail, ie the other one. So the sentence "In 1207 the Knights Hospitallers were granted the village by Lady Juliana of Caesarea along with nearby Far'un" goes out. (That means of course that the above DYK was completely wrong…at least for this place!)

As for Zertal, 2004, p. 451; I don´t have the book, and I can only preview the first page, 451, From that the good news is: it is about this place (it gives the grid-numbers). The bad news: It states "In 1207, the village was called Casale Seingebis and was the property of Juliana of the Hospitalers, part of the territory of Crusader Cesarea".

"Juliana of the Hospitalers"!!! Zertal have imposed a sex-change on poor Juliana, it seems. I don't see what it is sourced to (if anything), but in any case: This is complete rubbish. I assume it is based on the same source as Boas, in which case the sentence "Nisf Jubeil had been a Crusader village called "Casale Seingebis" belonging to the territory of Caesarea in the early 13th-century" goes out, too

I wish I knew what Ellenblum base his 1838 info on (there is no ref.) It is not Robinson, he only mentions Nisf Jubeil in passing.

Conder, C. R. (1890). "Norman Palestine". Quarterly statement - Palestine Exploration Fund. 22: 29–37.

Cheers, Huldra (talk) 07:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Taken out:

Nisf Jubeil had been a Crusader village called "Casale Seingebis" belonging to the territory of Caesarea in the early 13th-century.^[1] In 1207 the Knights Hospitallers were granted the village by Lady Juliana of Caesarea along with nearby Far'un.^[2]^[3]

^ Zertal, 2004, p. 451.
^ Boas, 2006, p. 82, citing Röhricht, 1893, RHH p. 220, no. 819
^ Clermont-Ganneau, 1888. pp. 335, 401, cited in Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. 205, No. 768

Boas, Adrian J. (2006). Archaeology of the Military Orders: A Survey of the Urban Centres, Rural Settlement and Castles of the Military Orders in the Latin East (c. 1120-1291). Taylor & Francis. ISBN 0415299802.
Clermont-Ganneau, Charles Simon (1888). Recueil d'archéologie orientale (in French). Vol. 1. Paris.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Röhricht, Reinhold (1893). (RRH) Regesta regni Hierosolymitani (MXCVII-MCCXCI) (in Latin). Berlin: Libraria Academica Wageriana.

Okay, sis. Whodda I godda do? point me to the pages you want translated or, pref. summarized.Nishidani (talk) 12:02, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Start with Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. 205, No. 768 and then RHH p. 220, no. 819. I suspect the Mezgebino in the first one (from 1200) is the same place as Seingibis in the second. A summary of them is fine. If Boas is correct (which I assume), then the second one say " "In 1207/08 the Hospitallers received from Lady Juliana of Caesarea the villages of Pharaon (Far´un) and Seingibis (Khirbat Nisf Jubail)" What would be very significant, is whether they say anything about the distance between Pharaon and Mezgebino/Seingibis, And remember that little magnifying glass on the page to get the text larger!! (Btw: you got mail), Cheers, Huldra (talk) 15:20, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay kiddo. But gimme a day or two to pull my finger out. I've got a bad case of cerebral hemarrhoids and need a bex, a cuppa or two and a carton of fags,to finish reading a Gibson novel, to freshen up for this humongous task of textual tedium!Nishidani (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pringle, Denys (1986). The Red Tower (al-Burj Al-Ahmar): Settlement in the Plain of Sharon at the Time of the Crusaders and Mamluks A.D.1099-1516. University of Michigan. ISBN 0950054267.

The above book p 41 has lots of info about this (including the Clermont-Ganneau-article) And yes, this should definitely go into the Far'un article. How is the translation going along, User:Nishidani? Huldra (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2021 (UTC) 7 yeas? Mea culpa, mea culpa, me a Mexican cowboy. Dementia again. Will try to look into it today. Sorry Nishidani (talk) 08:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jeezus that is just a tasteless fruit-salad of commingled names, but the gist is, slightly differing from Boas, that 'Ademarius, the lord of Caesaria, with the consent of his wife Juliana etc., signed over to the Soquerii the ploughland and its income spread over Kafarleto etc.,' including Mezgebino, which he says is 'otherwise known as Seingebis, now called Nusf Jebul.' But note that the date for this is February 1201.Nishidani (talk) 14:52, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The second dated Feb 1207 has Juliana yielding up the casale of Pharaon and Seingibis 'whose boundaries extend from the east to Cavea and Petra Molarum, to the borders of Caphet (Keffa per Conder)), south as far as the boundaries of Phardesi . .from the west up to the boundaries of Calanchun, from the north right down to the hollow (cavea) of Artais.' Not much help. Nishidani (talk) 15:14, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, User:Nishidani. Well, it is fine to have finally (kind of) figured this out, but still embarrassing that we totally mixed up this place with Khirbat Nisf Jubail back in 2012. And that for a DYK on the front page, no less <facepalm/>, It doesn't really help that Adam Zertal, using Beyer, G., 1936. “Das Gebiet der Kreuzfahrerherrschaft Caesarea in Palaestina. Siedlungs- und Territorialgeschichtiich untersucht,” ZDPV, 59, ss. 1-91 got it totally wrong, too. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Fixed dead 1931-link Huldra (talk) 23:27, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic spelling is no good

The letters aren't linked because they're oriented from left to right (thus being spelled backwards). Could someone please plug this correct spelling in to all the necessary spots: نصف جبيل

Thanks. Done Just saw this now, the Pal.rem site also has your spelling, so I changed it, Huldra (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A third Jubeil

Note that there is a third Jubeil: In addition to the one by Far'un, there is also one ~3 km east of Ein Mahil, at 1863/2370. Also apparently a Crusader site.

Noted on p. 300 in:

Grootkerk, Salomon E. (2000). Ancient sites in Galilee: a toponymic gazetteer (Illustrated ed.). BRILL. ISBN 90-04-11535-8.

It was called Um Ejbeil by Robinson & Smith in 1838 (when it was still counted as a village); see Robinson and Smith, 1841, vol 3, 2nd appendix, p. 132 Huldra (talk) 20:34, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[Zertal451-1] Zertal, 2004, p. 451.

[2] Boas, 2006, p. 82, citing Röhricht, 1893, RHH p. 220, no. 819

[3] Clermont-Ganneau, 1888. pp. 335, 401, cited in Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. 205, No. 768

[1]

[2]

[3]