Talk:Nicolas Chopin

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Polish of French descent?

Polish of French descent implies that Nicolas Chopin was born a Pole of French descent, which he was not: Nicolas Chopin was born a Frenchman in France; thus, putting him in the category of Polish people of French descent [1] is not correct.

If put in a category, Nicolas Chopin should be in that of French people who emigrated to Poland.

--Frania W. (talk) 20:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

French

he was french what's wrong with you people ? are you all anti-french pro-polish ? why are you so afraid about the french side of frederic chopin? you pratically want his father to became polish and erased the fact he is french. I call this racism. Just because chopin was a great composer!!!!this is so childish.I'm so angry !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.66.146.209 (talk) 00:46, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is worth noting that Nicolas himself, according to Chopin's first serious biographer (Niecks, who interviewed many friends of the family), encouraged the story that he was the illegitimate son of a Pole in Lorraine. Some recent biographers say this story has been 'discredited', but it has only been 'discredited' insofar as his paternal lineage through François was traced (which does nothing to discredit the possibility that Nicolas was illegitimate; it only discredits the story that his father's name was Szop). Whether or not that's true, Lorraine was a fairly Polish area of France for various historical reasons, and it's not anti-French to say so. I realize there was probably some unnecessarily anti-French stuff on the page before, but this story can (and should) be mentioned, with the proper qualifiers. Even if it's true, Nicolas would still be half-French through his mother. [Commentary unsigned, added by Terez27, 13 march 2013, 15.36]

For Terez27 : you write "which does nothing to discredit the possibility that Nicolas was illegitimate". What does "illegitimate" mean? That he was born out of marriage. That obviously is not true : there is a baptism act which you can find on line (Archives départementales des Vosges (if the link does not work : [2] then "Registres paroissiaux", "Marainville-sur-Madon", "Baptêmes", "1771", "MARAINVILLE-SUR-MADON", then go to page 25). Consequently, Nicolas Chopin was not illegitimate. Do you (or Niecks) mean that his mother, married with François Chopin, had had an affair with a Pole and that Nicolas was the fruit of this adultery ? Not very serious... Or do you (or Niecks) mean that Nicolas said in Poland that he was illegitimate ? It is possible, but where exactly does Niecks write that ? What does he precisely write ? If Niecks is the only source, and if he has no credible source, that's not very serious any more.

Then I wait with impatience for you to give evidence not of Nicolas's illegitimacy, but of what his "first serious biographer" said. Thank you so much

And I sign

--Jacques Goliot (talk) 13:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again.

I found Niecks's text : it is on line at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4973/4973-h/4973-h.htm ; at the beginning of the first chapter, it is possible to read lines concerning a Nicolas Chopin's Polish father, but also concerning a "Chopin d'Allonville" origin ; it appears that Niecks has no personal information. He refers himself to different sources (including a French newspapers from 1849). I have not noticed any assertion that "Nicolas Chopin encouraged the story that he was the illegitimate son of a Pole in Lorraine". But I have not studied Niecks's text thoroughly.

Cordially.

--Jacques Goliot (talk) 16:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I give now some sentences taken from Niecks's text :

« M. A. Szulc, the author of a Polish book on Chopin and his works, has been told that Nicholas Chopin, the father of Frederick, was the natural son of a Polish nobleman, who, having come with King Stanislas Leszczynski to Lorraine, adopted there the name of Chopin. […] It must, however, not be overlooked that this story is but a hearsay, relegated to a modest foot-note, and put forward without mention of the source whence it is derived. […] Count Wodzinski, who leaves Nicholas Chopin's descent an open question, mentions a variant of Szulc's story, saying that some biographers pretended that Nicholas Chopin was descended from one of the name of Szop, a soldier, valet, or heyduc (reitre, valet, ou heiduque) in the service of Stanislas Leszczinski, whom he followed to Lorraine.] Indeed, until we get possession of indisputable proofs, it will be advisable to disregard these more or less fabulous reports altogether, and begin with the first well-ascertained fact—namely, Nicholas Chopin's birth, which took place at Nancy, in Lorraine, on the 17th of August, 1770. »

Obviously, we are confronted with the "man who saw the man who saw the bear"-syndrom (in French : "l'homme qui a vu l'homme qui a vu l'ours", formula which questions the value of very indirect testimonies) ! Niecks does not give great credibility to those tales.

Notice that he is wrong about the birth place (and date, but it is less important).

Why ? Because Nicolas Chopin generally said to his friends that he had been born "in Nancy" or "around Nancy" (same as if you live in Maidstone, Kent, you could say to an Indian (or even to a Frenchman) that you live near London). In fact, the baptism registration was found only in 1926, after in 1923 the Soviet Union restituted to Poland the ministerial Polish Archives, particularly, those from the Polish Ministry of Education ; and in the "Mikolaj Chopin" file, his true birthplace was read, Marainville, not Nancy, which in fine permitted to Ganche to read and publish the act (all that from Gabriel Ladaique's thesis, Les Ancêtres paternels de Frédéric Chopin).

From the moment we can read this official act, dated 16 April 1771, saying that he was born on the 15 April, the son of François Chopin, cartwright, and Marguerite Deflin, it is no more possible to tell such tales as were told before (but which were not believed by everybody). The identity of this Nicolas Chopin with Frédéric Chopin's father is confirmed, for instance, by a letter sent by him en 1790 from Warsaw to his parents, letter which was found (in 1949) among the papers of a descendant of one of his sisters.

Everybody, in 2013, may think that Nicolas Chopin is the son of a Polish nobleman or of a Polish mercenary, but nobody is allowed to do as if the baptism registration had not been discovered and published (87 years ago !).

Cordially.

--Jacques Goliot (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Nicholas Chopin

Nicholas Chopin is used 10 times more often in English sources than the Polonized name Mikołaj.

Article ~~needs to be~~ was moved accordingly. -- Matthead Discuß 17:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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