Talk:Nemetes

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

History

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

"Nemet" (or some variant thereof) has become the word for "German" in the Slavic and Hungarian languages. Please, where did you dig this phenomenal information??? The word for Germans in Slavic languages (sg. Nemec, pl. Nemci) simply means "dumb". Centrum99 (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it is generally accepted by professional linguists that the word for German comes from the Slavic word for "mute". This word does seem to resemble Nemetes but it is probably just a coincidence. If someone thinks it is more than a coincidence, please provide a link to academic support. Wikipedia does not accept original research and fringe theories.209.183.22.94 (talk) 16:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I undid your deletion. The etymology of the word Eastern European words for Germany from Nemeti is not "original research". It has been around at least since 19th century. I added two references. The translation of the web source in Polish is:

The Slavonic name for Germany ("Niemcy") is likely a modification (and probably an adideation to the adjective "mute") of the name of the Germanic tribe "Nemeti", "Nemetae", which lived on the upper Rhine (near today's Speyer). Earlier, the name signified a Celtic tribe (later Germanized?). It has a clear etymology of "inhabitants of the sacred grove".

To my understanding, adideation means "a change under an influence of an idea extraneous to the original meaning". My impression was that this etymology cannot be too controversial because it is so straight forward, has ancient source support, parallels other etymologies (e.g., Alemanni), and has been written about quite a bit.

The alternative etymology (from mute or dumb) is without doubt more popular. The reference given calls it "folk". To my understanding, it indeed originates from a folk story recorded by A. Brückner in the "Etymological Dictionary of the Polish Language" (1927). However, it is plain to see that it cannot be taken as a fact due to the lack of ancient record. One modern take at this etymology (pl:Tomasz Szarota, "Niemcy i Polacy: wzajemne postrzeganie i stereotypy", 1st edition, Wydawnic. Nauk. PWN, Warszawa, 1996) appears to be that it might have something to do with international stereotyping.

I would not confuse either of these theories with a fact. But it seems fair in an article on "Nemeti" to mention the possible legacy of their tribe name. Stan J. Klimas (talk) 04:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How can it be that this, say, insignificant tribe compared to other German tribes, was the source for the ethnonym of the whole Germanic peoples? Also the area which they inhabited is so far west that Slavic peoples never came into contact with those tribes. It is more logical to think that if Slavic people were looking for a name for Germans they would look for it in their backyard not on the other end of Europe so to speak. Therefore the mute/dumb theory has much more credibility than this Nemetes theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.27.38.136 (talk • contribs)

To add something. I would like to know why people say there were a Germano-Celtic tribe ? What does it mean ? they lived in Germany (according to the Roman terminology) that is sure, but about their language ? We don't have any evidence that they could have spoken a Germanic language, on the contrary the name of the tribe, the god's names, the chief's names show they spoke a Celtic language. The theory of the "germanization" of such people should be explained before writing something about it : in which way (gods, habits, traditions) ?. Sure, the Nemetes were germanized, but probably after having been romanized first, when Germanic elements began to settle in the Roman empire as colons, laeti, daedetici, Foederati. About the etymology of the Slavic word, I share the idea of the preceeding contributor : how could be the name of a Celtic tribe without any contact with the Slavic world, be the word for German ? strange isn't it ? I think this explanation was found according to the same pattern as Volcae (a Celtic tribe) that became the word for Celts, then for the romance speakers and foreigners in the Germanic languages (common G *walhisk, for instance English Welsh), but Germanic tribes were probably partly responsible for the emigration of the volcae to southern Gaul, so it makes sense. On the other hand, the explanation of the Slavic word meaning "mute" is not different of the word "barbarian", that derives of people who mumbled or stammered Greek originally.

Nortmannus (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See if the current phraseology helps with the Germano-Celtic question (which really deserves an article of its own – cf. Talk:Treveri#Germanic descent). Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:48, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This Nemetes-theory seems to be very rare. It has indeed been brought up already in the 19th century. But until today, the etymology in nearly all publications is explained by a Slavic verb for mute. See for example this work on foreign words in the Slavic languages from 1864 (in German). It says: The connection to Nemetes has to be rejected, from linguistic reasons as well as from reasons lying in the matter itself (sorry, don't know a suitable translation for sachliche Gründe, here apparently meaning historical reasons). The Nemetes are a people of the first three (?) centuries AD on the Rhine. The Slavs came from the east, to Moravia in the 5th century, Bohemia in the 6th, and it was not before the 7th century that they came as far as northern Bavaria. The Nemetes are not attested any more at this time, and have never been attested somewhere further east. It is nearly impossible that the name of a small, long vanished and romanized tribe, which has never encountered slavic tribes, gave its name for the Germans in general.

The sources given for this theory are few, I find them mostly in the 19th century. One article in Polish is (if I extract this right from the Polish explanation on the web page cited) written by a biologist (!), and I found only one reliable source mentioning this theory (Journal of Indo-European Studies 1974)

Regardless of being a popular explanation, the derivation from a word for mute is the standard explanation in nearly all etymological dictionaries. We have to trust the specialists in etymology that they have considered this question for at least two centuries and have come to a conclusion which is the most probable at the state of our knowledge. It is not acceptable that this Nemetes-theory is presented by the Wikipedia as the only explanation or even as the main derivation. --Eselohr (talk) 10:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "mute" hypothesis is, to my reading, rejected in the final conclusions of the reference^[1]

"To sum up, let us repeat again: the Slavic term Niemcy referred only to the fact that there was no real name for this country at the time of its creation in the mid-9th century and it did not refer to difficulties with understanding German by the West Slavs, and first of all the Poles and the Czechs."

Cheers. Stan J. Klimas (talk) 02:08, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does the latest revision seem appropriate? Cheers, Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Given the rareness of this theory in modern linguistic/historic works, I tended to deleting this sentence completely. But the current phrase seems okay to me. Thanks. -- Eselohr (talk) 22:18, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nemetes, not Nemeti

The person quoting Caesar here does not know Latin. Caesar's work (and also Tacitus, Pliny the Elder) contains derivative forms of "Nemetes". The quoted Caes. BC VI 25.1 runs thus: "oritur ab Helvetiorum et Nemetum et Rauracorum finibus", where "Helvetiorum" is gen. pl. of "Helveti", but "Nemetum" is gen. pl. of "Nemetes" (otherwise it would be "Nemetorum"). So say other authors. The form "Nemeti" has never existed, it's Nemetes only. 95.49.47.107 (talk) 18:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good call! Should be fixed now. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:48, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

^ Idzi Panic, "West Slavic name of “Niemcy” in the early medieval times", Prace Naukowe Uniwersytu Slaskiego, Nr 2488, Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Śląskiego, Katowice, 2007 (contains link to a pdf with summary in Polish, English and German)

Nemetes -> Niemcy

The name of the Nemetes has been proposed, on contestable grounds, as a possible source of the term for Germany and German people in Hungarian: német(ek) and the Slavonic languages

Your own (i.e. en.wiki's) article here claims that it is not "contestable", but impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.87.13.69 (talk) 22:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Idzi Panic, "West Slavic name of “Niemcy” in the early medieval times", Prace Naukowe Uniwersytu Slaskiego, Nr 2488, Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Śląskiego, Katowice, 2007 (contains link to a pdf with summary in Polish, English and German)

[1]