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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5

The Nationality issue

I would suggest a semi protect for this page due to the constant Portuguese ip's that keep adding Portuguese to the lead paragraph--Wikiscribe (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Concur. --Morenooso (talk) 02:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
You suggest blocking an IP for addind sourced information? I suggest that you follow the guide line from theManual of Style for Bios:"César Estrada Chávez (March 31, 1927 – April 23, 1993) was a Mexican American farm worker, labor leader, and civil rights activist who, with Dolores Huerta, co-founded the National Farm Workers Association, which later became the United Farm Workers (UFW)" ; or some double nationalities are prefered to others? Also follow the NPOV "All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors." "The Independent" is a published reliable source: My Life in Travel: Nelly Furtado. The Independent and try also reading the Verifiability :"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source (see below), not whether editors think it is true" there for you can not ask for a "A statement by the government of Canada" and a "dual birth certificate" to verify the information. I find the editors reversions, made in bad faith, not following wikipedia policy and if you want to block an IP for adding sourced information you should also ask to block the editors who are reverting the sourced information agains wikipedia policy not to look biased, unless you can prove why it is forbidden to add "Portuguese to the lead paragraph" and not "Mexican" as both countries use jus sanguinis nationality laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.7.82 (talk) 03:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia has rules. With every rule there is an exception. Unfortunately Furtado does not fall in the exception range. Only one nationality is allowed and it's the one at time of notability which for her is Canadian. If you don't want to follow this rule, then I gently suggest you edit other articles or go elsewhere where you are permitted to break the rules. --Morenooso (talk) 03:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
And what exception is that and where is it in wikipedia rules? Where does it say only one nationality is allowed , please quote, and say what qualifies for an exception. Also explain what makes jus solis preferable to jus sanguinis citing wikipedia rules. And kindly explain how she was not portuguese at time of notability if jus sanguinis is given at time of birth, was "time of notability" before she was born? "If you don't want to follow this rule"
I do not follow rules invented by editors and I cannot break rules that do not exist, on the other hand you are breaking them, unless you can give a citation and a link from where you took those "rules", to elucidate this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.7.82 (talk) 03:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
When you look at the article's history and when a revert has been made, you will see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph. Paragraph 3 is delineates the nationality requirement at time of notability. Subparagraphs 1 and 2 apply as well. While Furtado may be descended from Portugese parents or even have dual citizenship, her ethnicity did not factor into her becoming notable as singer.
The best analogy I can make to you is if you don't know how to fly an airplane, you don't do because rules and training are involved. Wikipedia has rules too. Fail to follow the rules and other editors will remove your entries - pure and simple. Her ethnicity is dealt very with in the main body of her article. If that does not suffice you, then I gently suggest again you go elsewhere where you can find happiness. --Morenooso (talk) 03:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
What it says in MOS BIO: "Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." We are talking about nationality do not switch to ethnicity which is a plus, she is not ethnic canadian but she is also ethnic portuguese. What it says is "country of birth", and "ethnicity". The country of birth may not be the same as one´s nationality and the ethnicity may not be the same as one´s nationality when they are not relevant do not mention them. When they are also nationality, they are relevant.
Following MOS BIOS : "The opening paragraph should have: 3 Nationality & ethnicity. This means Portuguese-Canadian for nationality. Nothing says that nationality should be relevant to her becoming famous. She became famous because she could sing not because she was canadian or portuguese. Wikipedia has rules, read them. What gives you the right to suggest me to go some where where "you can find happiness" Why don´t you follow your own suggestion! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.7.82 (talk) 04:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Article placed on semi-protection due "possible 3RR violations by anons" IPs concerning nationality in lead paragraph - 2010-03-27

While this article was placed on semi-protection several days ago, it now appears an editor with a username does not understand why the page was semi-protected with this diff. It has made two edits since that date and may need further warnings that this edit war has now been settled about what nationality appears in the lead paragraph. --Morenooso (talk) 13:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

An extremely long-winded request at WP:EAR brought me here (see diff). I'm guessing this is the editor you're referencing. I'm not familiar with the MOS for bios but I'll browse through it, and the edit/talk history here, and come back in a second. — e. ripley\talk 22:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The pertinent piece: In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen[clarification needed] when the person became notable. and Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
So ethnicity isn't enough to be mentioned in the opening paragraph unless it's an intrinsic part of their notability. That leaves citizenship or place of residence. The first piece and second piece I quoted above could be read to be somewhat contradictory.
For instance, the first piece says "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, OR was a citizen when the person became notable." Broken apart, this could be read as "The country of which the person is a citizen or national." If she is a citizen of Portugal, then this reading would tend to support the anon's case. The second clause, OR was a citizen when the person became notable clearly would disqualify her, but being connected by "OR" presents it as one of two pieces, either one of which could satisfy the requirement.
However, the other clause down lower: Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability would seem to discount the first clause.
I think the implied meaning of the MOS is that to be included in the opening paragraph, the person needs to have been a citizen or national of that country at the time at which they became notable, and the language in the MOS probably ought to be cleaned up to more clearly convey that plain meaning and remove ambiguities. — e. ripley\talk 22:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The intrinistic part also means that the person at the time of their notability demonstrated within that ethnic community a strong relationship to or from it. The examples cited I am very familiar with as I live in California and studied César Chávez growing up. He was the son of illegal aliens who brought him across the border to be born American. He worked extensively on behalf of campesinos who are Mexican seasonal farm workers.
In the case of our governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, his struggle to become a naturalized citizen even as he did not speak the English language and while still maintaining strong ties to his Austrian heritage is well documented.
Most people do not interpret Nelly Furtado's notability in this manner. She was born in Canada to parents of Portugese descent. Her fame came as an English singer. However because she also sings in Spanish, many people I know assumed she was of Latin American descent because she tours south of the American border quite a bit. In the days since gaining notability, there have been claims that she is proud of her ethnic heritage but it did not play a significant role in achieving fame. Her article fully documents her ethnic heritage in a very nice fashion in the introductory paragraph. --Morenooso (talk) 23:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Now we have diferent interpretations Morenooso? Is it no longer necessary the presentation of "a statement by the government of Canada"and the " birth certificate from canada". Previous nationalities, means only that, if you had a nationality, you lost it and aquired another one which is the one you have at the time of notability , the previous one should not be mentioned. which is not the case. By the way your argument about Belinda came to what? She was born in Spain her father is Spanish she has Spanish nationatity and you agree that the opening paragraph says "Mexican singer" ? After saying here "Nationality at time of notability only references the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.""It is the country where the person is born. Period." How things change!
I do not know how you say that "most people do not interpret Nelly Furtado's notability in this manner", are you talking in the name of the thousands of portuguese-canadians from the portuguese community or in the name of the lusophonia? Every place you read in many interviews she talks about her portuguese heritage [[1]] pg 46, and she "says I am portuguese-canadian". For KWW, because of his funny demand, read what Canadian government wrote on the Canadian embassy webpage:


"Os portugueses sempre foram e continuam a ser membros activos da sociedade canadiana. O português Pedro da Silva foi o primeiro carteiro do Canadá, quando em 1693 teve início o serviço postal, assegurando o transporte e entrega em canoa do correio entre Montreal e a cidade do Quebeque. Mas muitos mais nomes se têm evidenciado ao longo dos anos no domínio das artes e da cultura, desporto, meio académico, inovação e suas aplicações…tais como, Nelly Furtado, Kim Vicente, Alexandre da Costa, Mike Ribeiro, Ana Costa, Elvino Sousa"[[2]]Date Modified: 2009-03-30
Translation:
"The Portuguese have always been and continue to be active members of the Canadian society. The Portuguese Pedro da Silva was the first postman in Canada, when in 1693 the postal service began, ensuring the transport and delivery of mail by canoe between Montreal and the city of Quebec. But many more names have been evidenced over the years in the field of arts and culture, sports, academics, innovation and its applications ... such as Nelly Furtado, Kim Vicente, Alexandre da Costa, Mike Ribeiro, Ana Costa, Sousa Elvino " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.115.181 (talk) 02:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I hope you can understand portuguese, Morenooso, and you too KWW. You are not going to contradict the Canadian embassador, are you? She calls her portuguese. I hope you can provide us an accurate translation to english Morenooso.

Correction:What the Canadian embassador meant was that Nelly Furtado is Portuguese...BUT, by descent, and has a Portuguese passport.

Nelly Furtado is Canadian.NF was born in Victoria, BC, Canada. Nelly Furtado has a Portuguese passport, born in Canada to Portuguese, Azorean immigrant parents. Therefore, she is Portuguese in a tizzy.

And Morenooso, how is it that you say that" because she also sings in Spanish, many people I know assumed she was of Latin American descent because she tours south of the American border". Many people you know? How relevant is that? Now what makes a singer famous is the language , they speak french in Canada too, you know? You forgot Brazil is in south America, let us count how many portuguese speakers can understand her songs in portuguese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.115.181 (talk) 02:10, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
If you will review the talkpage, I never said statements from the Canadian government - that was another user. But, it seems that an Admin type agreed with the interpretation of MOS Bio lead as cited. And, another reviewer is presently looking at the matter. Let's just stay tuned. . . --Morenooso (talk) 02:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
He addressed me directly, and I looked at his source. It doesn't specifically recognize Portuguese citizenship, as opposed to ethnicity.—Kww(talk) 02:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
No one is or has attempted to contradict this ambassador. This is a question about how Wikipedia edits its articles. Let's see what the Admin types say when the review is done. . . --Morenooso (talk) 02:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Nooo, who said that? If the canadian embassador says she is portuguese,after all she is the canadian government, she is. And dissociating the portuguese nationality from the portuguese ethnicity, on the welcome page of the Canadian embassy in Portugal, doesn´t seem what the canadian embassador had in mind, after all, the portuguese nationalists from Portugal might not be able to separate one from the other or understand the subtle difference between an ethnic portuguese (jus sanguinis comes to mind) and a portuguese citizen. Now I have to look around and ask people in Portugal: Hei, are you ethnic portuguese or a portuguese citizen? Have you got your dual ethnic birth certificate?
The welcome page of the Canadian embassy, in portuguese to wellcome the portuguese needs a second opinion about what they meant with "portuguese". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.115.181 (talk) 03:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Dissecating:
"In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen[clarification needed] when the person became notable. and Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability"
If you won a gold medal in the Olimpic games for your country, retired and later got another nationality, like Nadia Comăneci, the leading paragraph should only mention the nationality you were from, not your new one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.115.181 (talk) 03:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


Quoting Nelly Furtado:
"O que faz de mim o que sou é ser portuguesa e ser working class. Isso é Nelly Furtado" [3]
What makes me who I am is to be portuguese and to be working class. That is what Nelly Furtado is."
"A minha história é gira. Falo nesses assuntos porque a cultura portuguesa faz parte a minha música, o universo português alimenta a minha inspiração. Se não fizesse, não falaria tanto de Portugal."[4]
"My story is cool. I speak about these matters because the portuguese culture is part of my music, the portuguese universe feeds my inspiration. If it did´t I wouldn´t speak so much of Portugal"
"A língua portuguesa ocupa um espaço enorme no meu coração. Minhas raízes são muito fortes, me sinto mais em casa nos Açores do que no Canadá, onde me criei."[5]
"The Portuguese language occupies a huge space in my heart. My roots are very strong, I feel more at home in the Azores than in Canada, where I grew up."
This gives a whole new dimention to name calling "POVing Portuguese Nationalist IP's". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.69.86.60 (talk) 03:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Surely anybody, any sensible person can by now see that Morenooso has now taken this personally and does not want to be proven wrong regardless of whatever aguments are offered. The discussion page on Furtado clearly shows how long he has been carrying on this vendetta and absurd range of arguments that he has grabbed at - including that he wants proof that urtado has a Portuguese birth certificate!!!! Morenooso, you are doing Wikipedia a great disservice and your interventions should be put under moderation! This is embarassing for a civil society initiative to be hijacked by nazi patrollers. As I made clear on the dispute page, I had no stake in this (I am Angolan-South African/ South African of Angolan descent), merely came aross the article was then threatened by you (as you have threatened many others who dare change the page) and now I want to see this to the end. --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 10:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Those are two separate issues. I think that Morenooso mispresents the guideline, and that's a problem. I've told him so in the past, and will say so again. That said, until you show Canadian government documentation specifically respecting a Portuguese citizenship claim by Furtado, it should stay "Canadian" in the lead.—Kww(talk) 14:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Kww, for your demonstration of goodwill to settle this matter impartially. However, I'd like to know if the procedure you are suggesting was followed in hundreds of similar cases in Wikipedia. I herewith mention a few (collected in a very short time - imagine how many there must be out there:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Fernandes_%28footballer%29 is a Portuguese-Canadian footballer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Fernandes Canadian singer of Portuguese and Italian descent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Silveira What exactly is a Portuguese-Canadian family?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tavares_%28lacrosse%29 “and is of Portuguese descent”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Silva is a Canadian politician and is one of two MPs of Portuguese descent in the Canadian Parliament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadia_Almada Madeiran-born UK reality television star

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Aguilar English novelist and writer on Jewish history and religion, was born in Hackney of Jewish parents of Portuguese descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_De_Forrest was a Portuguese-born American early silent film actor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Barretto_Spinola was the first Portuguese American to be elected to the United States House of Representatives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_%28musician%29 English soul and R&B singer-songwriter, of Nigerian background --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 14:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


I agree KWW with anything else is original research to me, also to the resent rant above stop wasting your time going around to make collections of what other people articles say about them because that most likely falls under the false notion of because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST you are correct in your POV, it has already been demonstrated that there is not a uniform way of doing this because it does vary article to article, again note this singer Ramana Vieira born to Portuguese immigrants in the USA, in her lead it says American singer not Portuguese,it is clear this is a case where consensus should rule out it has said Canadian for long time and has been the consensus , it does makes sense she was born and raised in the country of Canada and i don't see a consensus to override i just see an ANONM IP who seems to be a Man/Women on a mission in life and a possible sock puppet--Wikiscribe (talk) 15:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I've corrected most of the cases that Rui Gabriel Correia pointed out. One of the footballers was murky to me, and a couple of the articles didn't have distinct lead sections, and there is no reason not to mention ethnicity in the body of an article.—Kww(talk) 15:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

No of course it already does in the case of Nelly Furtado in her early life section probably where it belongs


Furtado was born on December 2, 1978, in the Canadian city of Victoria, British Columbia to Portuguese parents, Maria Manuela and António José Furtado, both immigrants from Portugal's Azores archipelago.[2] Her parents were born on São Miguel Island and emigrated to Canada in the late 1960s.[3] Furtado has a strong connection with Portuguese culture. At age four she began performing and singing in Portuguese.[2][3] --Wikiscribe (talk) 15:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikiscribe, I've enough of this and will now take it up with the Foundation and Jimmy himself.

It is patent that you are the other person with a gripe, having done most of the edits (undos) that refer to Portuguese-Canadian. And I'd like to know who is the sock puppet you are reffering to. I am doing this on a point of principle. And I love your "stop wasting your time going around to make collections of what other people (sic) articles (sic) say", and then you go and offer ONE SINGLE exmaple to the contrary as a model! --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 15:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not one single example, it's the norm. Ethnicities do not belong in the lead. Without official documentation of the citizenship claim, "Portuguese" remains an ethnicity.—Kww(talk) 16:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I could care less about Jimbo Wales or what you tell him no i have not done the most reverts actually you might want to check the recent edit history again--Wikiscribe (talk) 16:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I picked up the OTRS ticket. Sorry, it's not actionable by OTRS. You'd need to show that reliable independent sources habitually refer to Ms. Furtado as a "Portuguese Canadian". I haven't seen any such evidence. It's mentioned lower down, I believe, and that's fine. Rui, we understand your pride in her achievements and I guess you are Portuguese (sorry, the debate above fails WP:TLDR). We understand national pride, but I'm afraid that's not what we're here for. Guy (Help!) 22:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

For the record. It is not about national pride. I am South African of Angolan descent. I have never before made any edits on Portuguese people or Portugal. If I did, it would have been a language edit for better readability. I came across the page while I was fiddling looking for a place to REQUEST the creartion of an article on LOCAL CONTENT. After doing that, I went to look at the "articles for translation from Portuguese", and Portugal project, Portugal-related, eventually led me to Nelly Furtado. So it was a completely chance occurrence.

I have contributed on South Africa, Angola, Brazil, culture, cuisine, health, medicine etc. And I speak Portuguese, just as I speak English like the rest of people on this page. So I've done hundreds of language correction in the Portuguese wikipedia. They are not signed, because it is a schlepp having to sign in and out when you click a different language, but I do have a user name. I've also made correction to French and Spanish pages. --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 00:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


"Without official documentation of the citizenship claim, "Portuguese" remains an ethnicity." by user Kww
Official? Where is the official documentation of her canadian citizenship? Without official documentation her canadian citizenship is just
original research.She is not even ethnic canadian. Show her official canadian documentation and prove that she is canadian.


"You'd need to show that reliable independent sources habitually refer to Ms. Furtado as a "Portuguese Canadian"." by user Guy
"habitually"? Where do you get those rules from? Can you pin point wikipedia rules on this issue? Nationality depends on how "habitually" she is called :::portuguese-canadian? Do you collect points in the end you exchange for the nationality? By independent you mean what ?Not portuguese speaker?
I already gave you this 'I'll never forget waking up and not knowing where I was. It's the best feeling in the world' Interview by Aoife O'Riordain-06 March 2004 and the
PCNC is a reliable secondary source
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as is the Canadian embassy
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knock yourself out:
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[10] pg287
[11] pg 164
[12] pg84
[13] pg244
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[29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.76.15 (talk) 03:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

You are forgetting she was born and raised and lived most of her life in Canada yes she is Portuguese-Canadian that is her ethnic background,i believe this is getting in to the WP:LAME ethnic department , you seem to have a clear agenda to try and discount or minimize her Canadian background from your comments, but hey why not try and do that if you can this sort of behavior is very successful on here, i know i have seen it in action before good luck keep up the good work and you will get your way sooner or later


P.S don't forget this as well WP:ADMINSHOP--Wikiscribe (talk) 04:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Forgetting? Isn´t that original research? If you ask for her portuguese documents I can ask for her canadian documents. It is fair enough.
"discount or minimize" good thing you gave it a name. It is what you have been doing. Asking for her canadian documents is minimizing but asking for her portuguese documents is not. She was raised in a portuguese home, and spent many of her holidays in the Azores. Portugues-Canadian is not ethnic. She is not ethnic canadian. The discussion is about nationality. Threats, threats, they are all over. Not that we are trying to erase her canadian nationality as you are doing to her portuguese nationality. Who has the agenda here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.171.152 (talk) 04:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I had no idea that this kind of thing went on in Wikipedia! It is shocking. The worst part is that the so-called admins are not admins - so far I have seen very little neutrality. Instead of demonstrating that they can be arbiters, mediators, ombudsmen, so far I see them posturing like lawyers - no different from the common people out there. I could undestand if Canadians and Portuguese were having this war, each trying to claim Nelly as their own. What I see, if a bunch of admins each time trumping out a new rule. And behaving like children, going to point of trying to antagonise others even furter, sarcastically 'pointing out' further place where to lodge the complain as I just saw above. This is said.

Now I too - having stepped into this by accident, but immediately met with aggrssion and threats - want to see the proof of her Canadian citizenship. I know adults here in South Africa, some even born here, who from the start registered under their parents' nationality and live as legal permanent residents, but NOT citizens. And they call themselves British, Greek, Italian, Lebanese, Portuguese - not South African. So, so much for "she was born and raised and lived most of her life in Canada", as touted by wikiscribe.

Read the CANADIAN amabassador to Portugal's message on the CANADIAN embassy website (property of the CANADIAN Government: "Os portugueses sempre foram e continuam a ser membros activos da sociedade canadiana. ... tais como, Nelly Furtado" In English, The Portuguese have always been and continue to be active members of Canadian society ... such as Nelly Furtado". I think that better than anybody here, the ambassador, Ms Anne-Marie Bourcier, is trained to not put her feet in her mouth! She would be the last person to unnecessarily cede sovereignty, so certainly, she has staff that does research for her (it is allowed at embassies). Funny thing, a high-profile Canadian on the official face on Canada in Portugal, describing Nelly Furtado as Portuguese! You guys better go help her! She is being silly giving away a citizen! --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 09:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

There isn't a single editor that is denying she is ethnically Portuguese. Of course she's ethnically Portuguese. That's well established, and included in the article. Her ethnicity isn't important enough to mention in the lead, although it is in the bio. Her possessing a citizenship of Portuguese has not been established, and that is what is required to go in the lead. It's pretty much time for this discussion to be over. You have been told what kind of documentation is necessary. If you can find it, produce it. If you cannot find it, then accept the result. There are different rules and guidelines on English Wikipedia than on the others. You will find numerous cases like this one: I'm sure that Jay Sean is British-Indian on most versions of Wikipedia. Here, he's "British".—Kww(talk) 16:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I pretty much agree wholesale with Kww's assessment here. — e. ripley\talk 18:08, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Kindly indicate where is the evidence that Nelly Furtado possesses canadian citizenship. Millions of people live in foreign countries - some born there - or permanent residence permits while retaining their original cotizenship. --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 20:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Archive

Very nice! While the article is being discussed in this page, a nice bot decided to archive the first discussion that took place and originated all the rest.[[30]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.48.61 (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Response from the Portuguese Embassy in Ottawa

Exmo Senhor Rui Correia

Com referência à sua mensagem de 31 de Março, lamento informar que o tipo de dados que solicita apenas podem ser facultados pela própria, visto que, de outra forma, violaria o respectivo direito à privacidade e confidencialidade de dados pessoais.

Com os melhores cumprimentos --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 20:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't speak Portuguese, but I suspect that even if I could understand this, it would be original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. — e. ripley\talk 20:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

You suspect wrong! Is is a copy of a DNA test to which they just subjected NF! Oops, that is original research to. In fact Nelly herself testifying would still be called original research!!!!

The email above says it would a violation of privacy and confidentiality of personal information. --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 20:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Great to see how even though you do not understand what it says, you have already discarded it! The Wikipedia Project is really safe in the hands (and minds) of people like you. --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 20:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I see. Well, even if the above said she is a citizen, it wouldn't be permissible because it is original research. What I'm trying to help you see is that going down this road is a pointless exercise, no matter what the embassy tells you or me or anyone else personally, because it will never be an acceptable way to source a Wikipedia article. Wikipedia summarizes facts that are already published in reliable sources. If the New York Times had written the embassy to ask this question and then included their response in a story, we could summarize that in this article and then source it to the New York Times. If it's not published in a reliable source first, we can't include it here. You see? That's the standard. Wikipedia articles strive for verifiabililty, not truth. Why is this? Because otherwise people have no way to check your work. You are in essence saying "Just trust me on this, it's right." And that's no way to be a reliable reference work. — e. ripley\talk 21:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you E. Ripley. That is honestly the only decent and sicerely reply I have received since I got involved with this issue. But you will have to agree with me on at least one things - admins make things much worse by prolonging these wars by setting conditions that once met are not accepted. On at least three forums (this one; Bios of living people and Editor Assistance), admins have been asking editors who have been going at this for years to produce evidence from the authoritties that she has Portuguese or dual citizenship. I entreaty such admins to kindly heed clear messages such as the one you have just penned. --Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 21:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome, I am sorry that you feel you have gotten some mixed messages. I have not been around the issue long enough to know all the details of what is past but I can tell you that my experience with admins here is that for the most part they work hard at a fairly thankless job for no compensation beyond the satisfaction of being part of this project. Of course some people are better at communicating than others but that's just human nature. My primary goal is upholding Wikipedia's rules and ensuring that articles here are in the best shape they can be. Most other people who contribute here want those same things as well. I think that if we can all cool off, and maybe have a nice cup of tea and a sit down we'll be better able to figure out a way forward. — e. ripley\talk 21:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Rui, like I said when you emailed, we go by what reliable independent secondary sources say. You need to find this in some source that is not a personal communication to you, that is published by a reliable authority and can be verified by others. That is policy. Asserting any other motive for not accepting material which is not so sourced is a failure to assume good faith. It's not like people haven't said this before several times. If the re[plies you get are becoming terse it's because people are getting tired of saying the same thing over and over and you not getting it. Do you understand what sort of sources you have to find? Do you understand that if these sources are not forthcoming then you will not get your way? Do you understand why? If not then we're all wasting our time here. Guy (Help!) 15:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


What I think is a waste of time, is asking for things that makes no sense. First what you said was this: "You'd need to show that reliable independent sources habitually refer to Ms. Furtado as a "Portuguese Canadian"."22:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC) Correct me if I am wrong. You were given 24 reliable secondary independent sources with the term "portuguese canadian" and now you change your mind? What other people said was this [[31]]:

User Morenooso: "She would have needed a dual birth certificate. Just being recognized or automatically being given dual citizenship is not good enough." User KWW : "Show that Canada has recognized a claim made by Nelly Furtado to Portuguese citizenzhip, and it goes in." Canada made a claim [32]and KWW changed his mind.

Now what you are saying is: "we go by what reliable independent secondary sources say"

What about what WIKIPEDIA says
Wikipedia:No original research


[...]primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. [...]Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on article talk pages.

[...]Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources.Further examples include archeological artifacts, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews;[...]

  • The University of California, Berkeley library offers this definition: "Primary sources enable the researcher to get as close as possible to what actually happened during an historical event or time period. Primary sources were either created during the time period being studied, or were created at a later date by a participant in the events being studied (as in the case of memoirs) and they reflect the individual viewpoint of a participant or observer."
Our policy: Primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source can be used only to make descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge.[...]
  • Secondary sources are second-hand accounts, at least one step removed from an event. They rely for their material on primary sources, often making analytic or evaluative claims about them.[...]
Our policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources. Articles may include analytic or evaluative claims only if these have been published by a reliable secondary source.


According to the above wikipedia policy

Published reliable primary sources:"Well I just got my Portugese passport, so maybe I'll go back there, but it would be fun to emigrate somewhere chilled-out, like the Caribbean."My Life in Travel: Nelly Furtado. The Independent and so is this one: "Nelly Kim Furtado (born December 2, 1978) is a Canadian singer, songwriter, record producer, and instrumentalist, who also holds Portuguese citizenship"Nelly Furtado site is now at nellykimfurtado.com FREE PRESS RELEASE "I am portuguese-canadian, and for me, my music and my Portuguese identity are the same thing" Vibe Jul 2001. pg46

Published reliable secondary sources:[33]; [34] ;[35];[36] etc ,etc and etc, all the other souces I posted.

This discussion comes back from 2007, 3 years now, when the user Opinoso ,a brazilian, and user Yamla fought over the same issue for a long time.In the end user Yamla accepted the source provided: "And note for the record that the Nelly Furtado article now includes in the introduction paragraph information about Portuguese citizenship, though now in such a way as it does not violate WP:MOSBIO, so I am most definitely not blocking this user because he disagreed with me. --Yamla 20:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)"[37] Since then there is always someone erasing the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.250.31.1 (talk • contribs)


I'm probably going to regret replying, but I must point out that I did not change my mind: show me a source of the Canadian government recognizing Portuguese citizenship, and I'll fight to change it to "Portuguese-Canadian". You've only provided a source that can be interpreted as recognizing Portuguese "ethnicity". Ethnicity isn't going to make it into the lead.
By the way, you have been complaining long enough and hard enough, you should have learned to use ~~~~ to close your post by now.—Kww(talk) 02:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
It was written in portuguese, not english , for a portuguese audience. When we want o mention recent portuguese ancestry we write literally "of portuguese ancestry" or "of portuguese origin", "luso-canadian" may imply ancestry or citizenship, just "portuguese" implies always nationality. We are not a nation of many ethnic groups like the USA, "portuguese" implies nationality and citizenship for us. Contrary to the UK or even Spain we are a country of one nation. The canadian embassy has cultural aids to to avoid cultural clashes like those, and the welcome page was not for english speakers, better than you we know what it means. When we refer to our ancestry we call ourselves lusitanians, like the french call themselves gauls and the english anglo-saxons.
Canada recognizes dual citizenship and does not have to make special anouncements to recognize dual portuguese-canadian citizens: "Canada's Citizenship Act allows people to be citizens of two or more countries at the same time."[38] "Whenever you are in a country that recognizes you as a citizen, its laws take priority over the laws of any other country of which you may be a citizen."[39]
If even a former canadian prime minister John Turner had dual citizenship and several of ther MPs are dual citizens: Dual citizenship is a fairly common practice in Canada.[...]Former prime minister John Turner is among them, as he continues to hold citizenship with the United Kingdom. A portuguese - canadian MP "34. Mario Silva, Ontario Liberal, was born in Portugal. He holds dual citizenship and uses a Canadian passport"[40]
Wikipedia does not ask for Canadian government to recognize Portuguese citizenship , or any other, show me a precedent. Any other dual nationality had to be recognized by the Canadian government, or other governments, or this demand is specifically for the portuguese nationality?
Question ? Is there any precedent in Bio articles to use the term Portuguese Canadian in Canadian born people of Portuguese ancestry . I do not realy see it here or here so is this were new precedent is set in calling someone Portuguese Canadian? ..Just my 2 cents!!....Moxy (talk) 06:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes there is a precedent,Justin_Isidro is referenced as a canadian - portuguese because he plays for a portuguese team, on the other hand Jon Paul Piques who played first in a portuguese team is only referenced as canadian. Even if there were no precedents it would be bad faith to discriminate against portuguese citizenship. 89.214.105.64 (talk) 15:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
i dont think anyone is discriminate here--What we are talking about is the lead...It is mentioned promptly is the first section that is linked to --> Culture of Portugal ..Being born in Canada i dont see how her Portuguese citizenship needs to be in the lead...It does need to be in the article - mentioned as it is. What is see is an attempt to classify her in the view of a Natural born portuguese person, which she is not. It is great that she loves her heritage, but its just that her heritage and not her nationality....Moxy (talk) 19:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


Yes there is discrimination when the same rules are not applied to everyone. If there were not other people with double nationality you could say I was wanting to make "an attempt to classify her in the view of a Natural born portuguese person", but that is not the case. As I said before people born in Portugal do not get citizenship like in Canada, Portuguese citizenship is by jus sanguinis from parents to child not place of birth.

I can give you some examples of what you can find in wikipedia:

  • Canadian Keanu Reeves was born in Lebanon is U.S.A.and British citizen ; the criteria for choosing Canadian is a mystery.


Let's go back to the basic MOS:BIO:

Nationality & ethnicity –

1. In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.[...] 2. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.


To clarify, ethnicity and place of birth should not be emphasized, it is not just ethnicity. The place of birth is as important as ethnicity. But I did not see any source that showed that her place of birth had been relevant. If she can not have dual nationality no one else should have, otherwise is discrimination.92.250.11.33 (talk) 03:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

you know what ...i like your argument and because it was so long and you seem to have taken the time to realy care..But more over i have spent the past few days reading up and watching interviews with her..There's is not dough she calls herself a Portuguese Canadians and i say "Portuguese" first as this is what she say /or has said. .So ...I support you in this change to Portuguese Canadians but preferably phrased ...is a Canadian of Portuguese decent ... was born in Canada and is of Portuguese decent...somthing along thoses lines would be ok with me...Now we have to work on the rest of them...Why dont you make a new header call it --Proposed changes-- and lets see what others think and how it should be said..Let do this so this wont happen again and we can refer to it in the future as some sort of consensus even if its feeble its here.. Moxy (talk) 03:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


Thanks for taking the time, it is a start, but i thing for some is just a tug of war, the sources have been there all the time and it has been several people trying to change this for three years.92.250.11.33 (talk) 04:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


Sorry I have to correct this: To clarify, what they say in MOS BIO is: ethnicity should not be emphasized and place of birth should not be mentioned if not relevant, (it is not to supress ethnicity).

emphasis: 1 : a force or intensity of expression that gives impressiveness or importance to something b  : a particular prominence given in reading or speaking to one or more words or syllables 2 : special consideration of or stress or insistence on something


Mentioning it in the lead is emphasising it. There's no reason to do so.—Kww(talk) 04:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Possible resolution on thoughts about portuguese-canadian Nelly Furtado

I don't want to put more ashes to the discussion, since i can see some time as passed since you guys discussed this issue, but i had to give my input on it. I do understand what Kww(talk) says and i do believe that he has a certain reason on what he says, but after carefully reading the discussion i seem to detect where the misunderstood is. So lets see: All Wikipedia content is edited collaboratively and all the content must be supported by reliable sources that can be verifiable, as you guys so well discussed. So, one only need some reliable sources that refers to Nelly Furtado as portuguese-canadian, to use that expression on her article. It is as simple as this. Now what the Kww(talk) seems to be doing is saying or making the interpretation of those sources saying they refer to her ethic background and not to her citizenship. This is a clear Original Research. He is implying, or making allegations, if you will, on what the reliable sources says. And if we read the No Original Research policy it states "The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories— not already published by reliable sources." Also it seems that asking for Governmental sources that clearly refers to her portuguese citizenship status discarding all the reliable sources presented in the basis of his original research (e.g. saying they refer to her ethnicity), is an attitude that even though with the best intentions can be understood as a position of "ownership" over this article. What people should understand is that Wikipedia is based on SOURCES not PROOF. So i do believe that if there is reliable and verifiable sources that refer to Nelly Furtado as a portuguese-canadian, then the article should refer to her as such. Discarting those reliable sources by implying that they refer to her ethnicity is against wikipedia policy of no original research. Hope i could help the discussion. Big hug to all Tacv (talk) 04:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You misunderstand the situation and the point. We generally don't refer to ethnicities in the lead. Other publications don't have that rule, and will freely refer to people as being "BritishAmerican" or "Japanese American" at times when we would refer to the people simply as "American". Unless the publication is clear about whether is is referring to citizenship or ethnicity, we can't use it to demonstrate citizenship, which is what we need to have before referring to her as a "Portuguese Canadian" in the lead.—Kww(talk) 04:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi, there. I didn't misunderstood it. Wikipedia policies ask for reliable sources and thats it. If there is reliable sources that state she is portuguese-canadian, then thats the way she should be refereed to. You keep saying that its a reference to her ethnicity, but thats your interpretation of the sources, and when you do so its an original research from your part. We can't make allegations with a source cause if we do its a clear original research. What is important is that there isn't any rule in wikipedia that says that the sources presented (the ones that make reference to her as portuguese-canadian) can't be used. They clearly refer to her as portuguese-canadian, are reliable, are verifiable, some include her own speech and are in a number that shows that it's not a one number thing. Asking for "Unless the publication is clear about whether is is referring to citizenship or ethnicity, we can't use it to demonstrate citizenship" your're asking for Proof of her citizenship. Wikipedia doesn't work with proofs. What you're asking is that people have to make their own research on that topic, and thats against wikipedia policies. Wikipedia works with sources not proofs. If that wasn't the case then you also had to proof that she has canadian citizenship, which is ridiculous in itself. I think there are enough sources that state she is portuguese-canadian, and not simple canadian. And thats what wikipedia policies asks for. Making allegations that those sources refer to her ethnic background is misleading and against wikipedia. I think this is very clear, but i realize that different people think differently. i don't want to enter in an eternal loop here =) So if you don't agree with this then we have to agree in disagree. I don't really care if the article refers to her as canadian or portuguese-canadian, even though i think she should be refereed as portuguese-canadian. I just wanted to bring light to the discussion, pointing my opinion on the issue, but this isn't my "fight". So big hug to you mate and i hope someday this issue is finally resolved 'cause i know her nationality is being an eternal debate here. Big hug =) Tacv (talk) 15:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not saying that I can demonstrate it's a reference to her ethnicity, I'm saying that you can't demonstrate it's a reference to her citizenship. I've said before, and I will say again, if you have a reliable source than unambiguously states that she has Portuguese citizenship, you can list her as "Portuguese American". I'm asking that people not try to interpret sources.—Kww(talk) 15:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
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