Talk:Ncuti Gatwa/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
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Photo
The photo currently up is a screengrab from YouTube. I've asked BBC Doctor Who and his agent on Twitter whether they have a better one.[1] Marnanel (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good job taking initiative! CreecregofLife (talk) 21:28, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Initial year for Doctor Who appearance
I'm being VERY generous to CreecregofLife and bringing this to the talk page to resolve. What year should currently be listed in the filmography for Gatwa's first Doctor Who appearance? My answer: 2023. No source that I have seen confirms that he is appearing in the forthcoming 2022 episode - we can reasonably anticipate that he will, but that is not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination. If there is a source confirming his appearance in a regeneration scene this year, then of course that can be provided and 2022 listed. Until that point, we can only follow what we know. U-Mos (talk) 02:41, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- He found out in February. Filming wrapped in March. It's not synthetic to say his first appearance is in 2022. Nothing else would make sense for his reveal to be now if it wasn't the case. CreecregofLife (talk) 02:43, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- That is exactly what synthetic is. You've brought two facts together to assume something they don't say. That's not what Wikipedia does. A compromise might be to source his expected appearance in 2022 in prose, which is fine to do, and put "Forthcoming" in the filmography box. U-Mos (talk) 02:46, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Bringing two facts together is called a case. Do you have a source saying he takes over in 2023? That his first appearance is in 2023? Because “first adventure” is very specific wording that does not mean what the other two do CreecregofLife (talk) 03:09, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- That is exactly what synthetic is. You've brought two facts together to assume something they don't say. That's not what Wikipedia does. A compromise might be to source his expected appearance in 2022 in prose, which is fine to do, and put "Forthcoming" in the filmography box. U-Mos (talk) 02:46, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 Response to third opinion request:
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| I don't see any sources given in this discussion for either year, so if neither can bring actual sources to the discussion, neither year should be listed in my opinion. Combining sources like done above does seem like WP:SYNTHESIS to me. Amadeus22 🙋 🔔 15:09, 9 May 2022 (UTC) |
- Right here and here. 2022. Can't pass the torch in 2022 if no one's there to grab it CreecregofLife (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- I can't help but notice that the second source says:
On May 8, 2022, the BBC revealed that Ncuti Gatwa will play the Doctor in the 14th season of Doctor Who in 2023.
which does imply to me that the year for Doctor Who appearance should be 2023, even if filming was in 2022. This is consistent with many other filmography articles. Amadeus22 🙋 🔔 15:35, 9 May 2022 (UTC)- Does not say he debuts in 2023, nor does it say he’s filming his first full episodes right now, so I’m not sure how you get that interpretation. We have sources for how regeneration episodes work. We do not have sources that say he debuts in 2023 CreecregofLife (talk) 15:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- My bad, I didn't mean to say filming started in 2022, it should've been phrased instead as 'even if filming were to have been in 2022' as was proposed earlier. My interpretation relies solely on the fact that the BBC (and undoubtedly other big media too) reported that Gatwa would/will star as Doctor Who in 2023, and as such if this is indeed the majority coverage, we probably shouldn't diverge from this formatting on Wikipedia. Amadeus22 🙋 🔔 19:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Would star. Doesn't mean he doesn't appear before then CreecregofLife (talk) 19:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Even if he does, it's a filmography section which should list the 'official' date, which seems to be 2023. I also still don't see a source that says he will do a regeneration episode in 2022, so unless you can provide this I doubt I, or anyone else, would be persuaded by your point of view. Saying it 'doesn't make sense for it to be revealed if it isn't the case' is not even WP:SYNTHESIS but pure speculation. Amadeus22 🙋 🔔 19:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Your entire argument is based on speculation, and yet mine is entirely based on fact. If it “seems” to be 2023 then there’s no factual basis. All facts and precedent tell us it’s 2022.CreecregofLife (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- None of the references presented actually and explicitly confirm either year as the actor's debut. Many speculate and call it likely that he'll debut in 2022. Many others say he'll be the Doctor in 2023, but don't say that will be his debut. The solution of not listing any of the two years seems like an appropriate one. Do you have anything against it, @CreecregofLife:? —El Millo (talk) 21:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- List it as TBA, not “forthcoming”. I’ve never seen anyone use “Forthcoming” in the infoboxes. I did scroll all the way back to freshly-announced Thirteenth Doctor-era Jodie Whittaker (circa June/July 2017) and it listed Doctor Who, even with the debut episode (apparently Twice Upon a Time” was known as “The Doctors”?) as TBA. So with that precedent, that works. CreecregofLife (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, so it is solved. List it as TBA until it's clear when he'll be debuting in the role. —El Millo (talk) 21:18, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- List it as TBA, not “forthcoming”. I’ve never seen anyone use “Forthcoming” in the infoboxes. I did scroll all the way back to freshly-announced Thirteenth Doctor-era Jodie Whittaker (circa June/July 2017) and it listed Doctor Who, even with the debut episode (apparently Twice Upon a Time” was known as “The Doctors”?) as TBA. So with that precedent, that works. CreecregofLife (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- None of the references presented actually and explicitly confirm either year as the actor's debut. Many speculate and call it likely that he'll debut in 2022. Many others say he'll be the Doctor in 2023, but don't say that will be his debut. The solution of not listing any of the two years seems like an appropriate one. Do you have anything against it, @CreecregofLife:? —El Millo (talk) 21:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Your entire argument is based on speculation, and yet mine is entirely based on fact. If it “seems” to be 2023 then there’s no factual basis. All facts and precedent tell us it’s 2022.CreecregofLife (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Even if he does, it's a filmography section which should list the 'official' date, which seems to be 2023. I also still don't see a source that says he will do a regeneration episode in 2022, so unless you can provide this I doubt I, or anyone else, would be persuaded by your point of view. Saying it 'doesn't make sense for it to be revealed if it isn't the case' is not even WP:SYNTHESIS but pure speculation. Amadeus22 🙋 🔔 19:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Would star. Doesn't mean he doesn't appear before then CreecregofLife (talk) 19:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- My bad, I didn't mean to say filming started in 2022, it should've been phrased instead as 'even if filming were to have been in 2022' as was proposed earlier. My interpretation relies solely on the fact that the BBC (and undoubtedly other big media too) reported that Gatwa would/will star as Doctor Who in 2023, and as such if this is indeed the majority coverage, we probably shouldn't diverge from this formatting on Wikipedia. Amadeus22 🙋 🔔 19:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Does not say he debuts in 2023, nor does it say he’s filming his first full episodes right now, so I’m not sure how you get that interpretation. We have sources for how regeneration episodes work. We do not have sources that say he debuts in 2023 CreecregofLife (talk) 15:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- I can't help but notice that the second source says:
Known for Doctor Who
Please keep Doctor Who out of the "known for" section of the infobox until he actually is known for appearing in it. It's currently over 12 months away before we will even see him in the programme. He'll be known for Barbie before he's known for Doctor Who. – Dyolf87 (talk) 09:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
His dad has a PhD in … *theology*??
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How can you have a scientific title in something that is, by definition, squarely anti-scientific and literally based on schizophrenic mental illness? Is that like the Nobel peace prize, which also isn’t a real Nobel prize? … And don’t even *think* of being prejudiced against me. I’m dark-skinned psychologist myself, and also, unrelated to that, like the new actor. — 2A0A:A546:E67:1:9C20:D4A3:349F:A569 (talk) 10:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC) |
First black lead?
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He's obviously not. Freema Agyman played the Doctor's companion, her name appears immediately after David Tennant's in the opening sequence (usually only those names appear unless there is a special guest) - surely the Doctor's companion is also a "lead actor". The claim that Ncuti is the first seems like virtue signalling, he's not even the first black Doctor – Dyolf87 (talk) 15:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
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Fifteenth
Could we please change 14th to 15th Doctor. John Hurt's War Doctor was the 9th, and it is important to count him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:5884:8601:5C9D:D474:DDE4:F286 (talk) 14:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- He’s not in the numbering though CreecregofLife (talk) 14:47, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- What does that mean? 2A00:23C7:5884:8601:28C0:EDE0:78E9:BA62 (talk) 19:43, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- See Doctor Who showrunner Steven Moffat clears up confusion about the number of Doctor regenerations, sort of DonQuixote (talk) 19:46, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- It means we’re not jumping from 13 to 15 CreecregofLife (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- Turns out he is the Fifteenth Doctor, because David Tennant's gap Doctor is Fourteenth. The IP editor was right for the wrong reasons. O.N.R. (talk) 09:00, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- What does that mean? 2A00:23C7:5884:8601:28C0:EDE0:78E9:BA62 (talk) 19:43, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
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Date of Rwanda escape
Hi, would just like to call to attention that in the recent GQ interview, it is stated that "Gatwa’s family moved to Edinburgh from Rwanda in 1995 as refugees. Gatwa was two years old at the time, and doesn’t remember it." All other sources point to them fleeing in 1994, but it is possible the journalists simply looked up the date of the Rwandan genocide and wrote it this way. It is also possible (probably more so) that they fled Rwanda in 1994, and actually arrived in Edinburgh in 1995. Would love if more experienced editors could help work this out. Thanks. JamJamSvn (talk) 22:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
queer / gay?
In the Elle article cited he uses the word queer to describe himself. So that should be the word used here. 2A00:23C4:471D:B101:D967:F48F:5D5E:D4E6 (talk) 21:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. I've restored this correct description, the one that is verifiable. — Bilorv (talk) 21:10, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- As a gay man myself, I find the description 'queer' offensive, unless Ncuti has himself used that term to define himself. 94.173.104.171 (talk) 06:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
name pronunciation
Ncuti has made reiterated multiple times that his name is pronounced “n-SHOO-tee” and not “SHOO-tee” Brkmnly (talk) 00:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Then name the sources where he has done so. Nardog (talk) 05:15, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here he is on video saying so : https://www.tiktok.com/@xanatos1138/video/7367893075802492206
- (this is someone's copy of the video, I haven't found the original source) Tduk (talk) 14:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here it is on the Disney+ Facebook: [2] Tduk (talk) 18:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks—but he says he was 26 when his mother "corrected" him, which puts it 2018–19, but we have more recent videos of him introducing himself as /ˈʃuːti/. It seems more accurate to say that it is [nʃ-] in Kinyarwanda, but he says [ʃ-] when speaking English following its phonotactics. Nardog (talk) 23:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I see your point - he may just be up front about pronouncing it differently than what his mother says. I think we will need some better sources. He doesn't clearly state his stance in that video, which makes it unclear what the goal of the video is. Tduk (talk) 00:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- We seem to have a similar situation to Timothée Chalamet, who also uses an anglicized pronunciation when introducing himself despite having described the pronunciation in his heritage language as the "real" one. This is a common phenomenon: people often characterize an earlier pronunciation/meaning/etc of a word as the "correct" one. It's fine if they're using the word loosely just to mean "original/etymological", but to genuinely ascribe correctness to something just because it's an earlier form is an etymological fallacy. The correct pronunciation of a person's name in a language they fluently speak is invariably the one they use when speaking that language, no matter the name's origin. Nardog (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- We already agreed, though Gatwa's mother may disagree! Either way it's nice to have the explanation spelled out here. Another way to see it is that he's changed his name from the one his mother intended to give him to one that is spelled the same but pronounced differently. This is actually kind of the opposite of what happened with Geddy Lee. However it gets resolved, a note will probably help prevent further confusion. Tduk (talk) 12:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- We seem to have a similar situation to Timothée Chalamet, who also uses an anglicized pronunciation when introducing himself despite having described the pronunciation in his heritage language as the "real" one. This is a common phenomenon: people often characterize an earlier pronunciation/meaning/etc of a word as the "correct" one. It's fine if they're using the word loosely just to mean "original/etymological", but to genuinely ascribe correctness to something just because it's an earlier form is an etymological fallacy. The correct pronunciation of a person's name in a language they fluently speak is invariably the one they use when speaking that language, no matter the name's origin. Nardog (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I see your point - he may just be up front about pronouncing it differently than what his mother says. I think we will need some better sources. He doesn't clearly state his stance in that video, which makes it unclear what the goal of the video is. Tduk (talk) 00:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks—but he says he was 26 when his mother "corrected" him, which puts it 2018–19, but we have more recent videos of him introducing himself as /ˈʃuːti/. It seems more accurate to say that it is [nʃ-] in Kinyarwanda, but he says [ʃ-] when speaking English following its phonotactics. Nardog (talk) 23:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here it is on the Disney+ Facebook: [2] Tduk (talk) 18:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- By the way, I think it's too early to really be sure which is correct either way - in the recent interview clip where he gives the pronunciation beginning with an "n", he is answer the question "how do you pronounce Ncuti?", not something like "how is Ncuti supposed to be pronounced?" The former question _can_ be interpreted as the latter but isn't always. Tduk (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- If he changes how he pronounces his own name in his adult life, like Dick Cheney and Hasan Minhaj did, we should simply follow it and report the new pronunciation. But he introduced himself as /ˈʃuːti/ as recently as six months ago, so it seems safe to regard it as the authoritative English pronunciation at the moment. Nardog (talk) 07:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not going to get into an edit war, but I respectfully disagree that it seems clear - in the recent video, when asked "how do you pronounce Ncuti", he used the n sound. He was not asked "how does your mother pronounce it?" or "how is it pronounced?", but how do _you_ pronounce it. It doesn't matter what I think it is; because of this, people are going to think it's not clear, because it isn't completely clear, and I think it's a bad look to keep reverting people when there isn't a clear consensus and people do have a valid motivation to be unsure. If we don't know for sure (which I don't think we do), we should make that clear. I don't see why we can't just put the fact that it's unclear in the article. Tduk (talk) 11:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've revised the transcription and the note to include both variants and lay out what we've found. Edits/suggestions welcome. Nardog (talk) 12:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, that seems to present the information we have and also will have enough to show people that there is some confusion. Tduk (talk) 15:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've revised the transcription and the note to include both variants and lay out what we've found. Edits/suggestions welcome. Nardog (talk) 12:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not going to get into an edit war, but I respectfully disagree that it seems clear - in the recent video, when asked "how do you pronounce Ncuti", he used the n sound. He was not asked "how does your mother pronounce it?" or "how is it pronounced?", but how do _you_ pronounce it. It doesn't matter what I think it is; because of this, people are going to think it's not clear, because it isn't completely clear, and I think it's a bad look to keep reverting people when there isn't a clear consensus and people do have a valid motivation to be unsure. If we don't know for sure (which I don't think we do), we should make that clear. I don't see why we can't just put the fact that it's unclear in the article. Tduk (talk) 11:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- If he changes how he pronounces his own name in his adult life, like Dick Cheney and Hasan Minhaj did, we should simply follow it and report the new pronunciation. But he introduced himself as /ˈʃuːti/ as recently as six months ago, so it seems safe to regard it as the authoritative English pronunciation at the moment. Nardog (talk) 07:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2023
He will not be the fourth Scottish actor, he is not a Scottish national, I'm not sure if he has a British passport, regardless he is only Rwandan, to be Scottish you have to be from Scotland. 2A00:23EE:18E0:38F:829:E471:9E74:3A5E (talk) 08:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
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