Talk:National Book Award for Young People's Literature

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook articles

Children's literature Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Children's literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Children's literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Children's literatureWikipedia:WikiProject Children's literatureTemplate:WikiProject Children's literaturechildren and young adult literature articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tasks you can do:

Here are some open tasks for WikiProject Children's literature, an attempt to create and standardize articles related to children's literature. Feel free to help with any of the following tasks.

Add {{Portal|Children's literature}} to the See also section of related articles.
Tag the talk pages of related articles with {{WikiProject Children's literature}}
Join WikiProject Children's literature and list yourself as a Participant in the project.
Cleanup: A cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category, the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects.
Deletion discussions: listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature
Notability: Articles with notability concerns, listed at WikiProject Notability
Rate the Unassessed articles in the Children's literature WikiProject.
References: Add references to Unreferenced BLPs.
Requested articles: Create a requested article on literature
Stubs: Improve a stub-class article

edit

Awards Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Awards, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of awards and prizes on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AwardsWikipedia:WikiProject AwardsTemplate:WikiProject Awardsawards articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

United States Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Untitled

This list is split from National Book Award in a sense. That article history, discussion (Talk:National Book Award#children), and discussion edit history may be relevant here.

Losing finalists

User:Green Cardamom who created this article and National Book Award for Nonfiction when the 2011 winners were announced, says "need to add the shortlisted works, which is the point of this article, incomplete as it is".

That is not the case regarding the older articles National Book Award for Fiction and National Book Award for Poetry. Both list all winners from 1950. Losing finalists are missing for Fiction 1950-51, 1954, and 1972; present for Poetry only 2011.

All four articles are called "winners and finalists" where they are linked from National Book Award#Winners of the National Book Awards. All four articles seem to our only articles about the four particular awards in current categories.

Today I have revised all four "winners and finalists" articles to provide accounts that are partly repeated, with convenient named references to five pages at NBF. All should be developed to cover at least such a matter as whether any author has won them twice (#Repeat winners), ideally to cover also any separate response to the awards. --P64 (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P64 that is true, and appreciate your efforts, but you had just copied and pasted the winners tables into this article without integration with the existing finalists from 2011 and thus repeated 2011 winners twice, and had two different and incompatible table types in the same list. If you want to add the winners list you'll either have to make it using "*" and "**" (same as in National Book Award for Fiction) or use the table type as used in National Book Award for Poetry (the "{|") type). I personally prefer the easier to work with "*" / "**" format, as is currently, but it would up to you if you did the work. Green Cardamom (talk) 02:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. The lists are now complete, covering all 42 "Children's" or "Young People's" awards. I have completed wiki-markup of all author names and book titles in the lists. (continued at #redlinks) --P64 (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Young people and Children

In the parent article National Book Award i have retargeted from young-adult fiction to children's literature one explanatory link for this award.

This article and its parent both lack any indication whether the nominal difference between "Children" (1969 to 1983) and "Young People" (1996 to date) is substantial. For example is there any tendency for the current award to recognize books that libraries classify for "Young Adults" (YA at my local public library) rather than "Children"? Any tendency for the previous awards to recognize books that target pre-teens, young readers, and books for parents to read aloud? --P64 (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should this article cover any "Children's" award categories in its preface or in its list?

Should Category:National Book Award winners - Young People's Literature (for books, not authors) contain any articles on winning books from the Children's award categories?

Done. ... (see below)

FYI this table represents all the Children's award categories? (dates are award years, denoting publication years 1968 to 1982; "h,p" means two awards, hardcover and paperback)

Children's subcategory	1969	70	71	72	73	74	75	76	77	78	79	80	81	82	83
Ch Literature	x							x	x	x	x
Ch Books		x	x	x	x	x	x					h,p
Ch Bks, Fiction													h,p	h,p	h,p
Ch Bks, Non-fiction													h	x	x
Ch Bks, Picture Bks														h,p	h,p

National Book Foundation now lists finalists except 1972.

--P64 (talk) 01:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe "Young" is a more recent nomenclature, they used to just call it "children's" and "adult" in the industry. We should include it all in this one article. It does get complicated as your chart shows. Maybe that chart should be part of the article to clarify how things went. Green Cardamom (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For non-fiction I have a manuscript chart that I will write up at Talk:National Book Award for Nonfiction. I think tables something like this should eventually be included in the articles and welcome discussion of details.--P64 (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Categorization done. The Category:National Book Award for Young People's Literature winning works (a new cat name per recent discussion) does now include all of our articles on books that have won "Children's" or "Young People's" National Book Awards. --namely 23 of the 44 winning books. See the category and its talk for some details. --P64 (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Draft tables. In User space I now have a complete chronological overview of categories, User:P64/FSF/National Book Award#Numbers and Categories overview table.

That is followed by an incomplete draft table of 1964–1983 Nonfiction winners and finalists, which tries a couple of different styles. --P64 (talk) 19:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that is amazing. Never seen anything so comprehensive for a book award article on Wikipedia. Great work, must have taken a lot of time. Hope you are able to complete it. It could serve as a model for other awards too. I see you disagree about wikilinking inside book titles. I'll see if I can track down any consensus about it. Green Cardamom (talk) 19:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Repeat winners

If I skim the lists correctly (Young People, Children), there has been no repeat winner under the "Young People" label. Two writers for "Children" won two awards: Katherine Paterson 1977 and 1979; Lloyd Alexander 1971 and 1982. --P64 (talk) 00:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Paperback awards

Among the Fiction Paperback award winners 1980 to 1983, it appears to me that Marked by Fire was original. The other four were first published 1978, 1979, 1979, and 1980 respectively for 1980 to 1983 paperback award winners. (The first two of those publ dates are from our articles on the books, iiuc. The latter two books were 1980 and 1981 losing finalists as original hardcovers, so listed here.)

Should our articles/lists/tables make any distinctions between original and reprint paperbacks? --P64 (talk) 23:36, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the 1980–83 awards to paperback books, I have suggested lower status by indenting those entries beneath the corresponding hardcover categories. —same as National Book Award for Fiction; during general markup of the listings, which is now complete for 1969–83

Parenthetically i have provided original publication dates for all finalists in the paperback categories. Census report: for Picture Books (1982–1983), five of eleven paperback finalists were original; for general Children's Books (1980) and Children's Fiction (1981–1983), one of nineteen paperback finalists were original. —the 1983 winner Marked by Fire --P64 (talk) 21:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. The Category:National Book Award for Young People's Literature winning works (a new cat name per recent discussion) does cover hardcover and paperback awards. ~~According to my plan,~~[Confirmed, all] articles on the hc and ppb award-winning books (now 9 articles on 17 winning books 1980:1983) include a Note regarding the short-lived dual awards in many categories, with observation that most ppb-award winners were reprints. --P64 (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

edit conflict

Following edit conflict I have pasted my version with sections 1969 to 1979 and 1980 to 1983 (1.2 and 1.3) above someone's version of 1969 to 1983 (now called 1.4).

My edit summary was something like this: re-order 1969 to 1983 chronologically and subdivide; add 1980 to 1983 non-fiction data; wikify that --P64 (talk) 00:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Green Cardamom (talk) 09:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Redlinks

revised after completing one visit to all articles on winning books and reporting above (three times, marked done)

Done. This list of winners and finalists is now complete, covering all 42 "Children's" or "Young People's" NBAwards thru 2011. Wiki-markup of authors and books is complete. Co-authors are listed in the order that matches the book cover, an author website, a review, etc --with hidden comments such as "!-- so listed on the book cover --".

Reverse-chronological order is consistent through out (not my decision). We display redlinks only for winning author-illustrators; bluelinks or nothing for losing author names and for all books titles (my decision).

Within the lists I have provided many hidden comments such as "!-- our article is about the film of the same name --" or simply "!-- not Bob Jones --". Such notes mean that disambiguation will be necessary if/when we do create an article about the book or author. Usually I have not checked and reported whether the name/title has been disambiguated by a redlink elsewhere. --P64 (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently, for 39 of 44 award-winning books we have articles on at least one author. All five "red link authors" won awards during the inflationary years 1980 to 1983, when 17 books won 15 awards in four years. We are missing all three Children's Nonfiction winners and two paperback winners, one of which is a nonfiction poetry picture book. (Nonfiction gets respect but no loving composition of wiki-articles?) --P64 (talk) 00:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. My only objection is for things like this:

John Nance, Lobo of the Tasaday

It's generally agreed in most articles the title of a book doesn't contain wikilinks. It breaks up the title and hard to read and can be confusing to readers who don't understand what the link is for. There are a couple options:

John Nance, Lobo of the Tasaday
John Nance, Lobo of the Tasaday
John Nance, Lobo of the Tasaday (see Tasaday)

I like the last best. Green Cardamom (talk) 03:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Authors with multiple nominations

Two authors have won twice, Lloyd Alexander and Katherine Paterson --both for first edition fiction, although they were also nominated for two and three paperback reprint editions. (By the way, some award-winning books including both of Paterson's were finalists again as paperback reprints.)

Six different books by Alexander were nominated, which I have mentioned alongside his two awards because I don't know whether that is the greatest number of honored titles.

Except the double-winners, I don't know of any multiple appearances on the lists that I deem notable rather than trivial, so I have given this new section the heading Authors with two awards. In principle the meaning is notable repeat appearances by authors and it should be renamed if appropriate. --P64 (talk) 01:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Classification

Nonfiction

Which of the winners is nonfiction?

Picture, Children's, Young Adult

Which may be called children's books narrowly: not likely/appropriate to be marketed as picture books on the one hand or young-adult books on the other? Do we have any picture books outside the early 1980s awards subcategory dedicated to picture books? --P64 (talk) 20:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]