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Archive 1

General Discussion

EsatErbili 14:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)EsatErbili

Trying to fix up the page by adding more detail and in particular references! I have two so far that are useful which I have referred to in the article. The Dabashi article is quite long and detailed and contains many references itself.

Topics to add

EsatErbili 14:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)EsatErbili

  • Tusi's Theology
  • Tusi's Philosophy - Contribution to Logic, Thoughts on Ethics
  • Contribution to Mathematics
  • Contribution to Medicine
  • Contribution to Astronomy (!)

Comments on the Biography

There was a sentence, "... born probably to Azerbaijanian parents ...", in the article that was deleted by an anonymos contributor, reasoned in "Edit summary" by "removed baseless speculation about his parents. the person who injected this info also put "Turkick" for Atilla in that article. for sure a calculated move". Wish (s)he had mentioned the case in the Talk page. Anyway, I leave this note in talk page for those who can verify this case. --Pouya 10:56, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

EsatErbili 14:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)Esaterbili I removed the reference to the name "Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Nasir al-Din al-Tusi" because I plan on referring to his father (which fixes the whole geneological system) as Muhammad Ibn Al-Hasan (reference 1)

whoa whadda name . . . 136.242.228.164 09:15, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's like a geneological system. It's a mix of patronymics and an Arabic system of naming what you are father of. I think it amounts to "Nasir al-Din al-Tusi: Son of Al-Hasan, son of Muhammad, father to Jafar", but I'm not certain there.--T. Anthony 10:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

no appropriate reference for tusi being azarbayejani

i removed the claim that he was azerbayejani. i checked the reference given. it is stated there that he is believed to have been born to an azeri family. this is in contradiction to all other references on tusi that i have found. please do not add it again. among 11 references i checked the russian book cited was the only one with that claim. baihaghi31jan2007. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.70.50.107 (talk) 01:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Konevi or Qaysari?

There is a reference in the article that Tusi corresponded with ibn el-Arabi's son-in-law, Qaysari. That should be Konevi. For the interested who can talk Turkish, their correspondence is translated to turkish by Ekrem Demirli and published in by iz yayincilik 193.255.160.13 (talk) 11:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)mehmet

Tusi a philosopher or a Scientist?

This article makes clear that Tusi was a first class scientist. But what about his philosophy? Or did he have one? Answering this question in the affirmative would be interesting, as chronologically it would place him at the beginning of the great revival of islamic philoshopy in Iran which is crowned by Mulla Sadra. 193.255.160.13 (talk) 11:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)mehmet

Dead on....

in the headline it says the 26th June - in the sideline he died on the 25th June - so when? -- 88.64.3.44 (talk) 09:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Stamp

I removed an Azerbaijan government stamp. Since Tusi is actually from Tus Khorasan (not Iranian Azerbaijan which would be still part of Iran's history since an Azeri-Turkic identity was not formed yet and the people of Azerbaijan were still Iranic speaking), wrote about half in Persian and half in Arabic and he was Persian. Lets keep the Encyclopedia at a scientific level. His influence of course is all over the region--Nepaheshgar (talk) 14:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The reasoning here is utter nonsense. Azerbaijan, as a sovereign nation, has the right to put whoever it wants on its stamps; it is not limited by the citizenship or nationality of the subject. The simple fact is that that government chose to put him on a stamp. Eclecticology (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Tusi is ARAB,How can Tusi be Persian when he has an ARAB name,surname and origin and he wrote in Arabic only!!??

How can Avicenna be Persian when he has an ARAB name,surname and origin and he wrote in Arabic only!!??

Humanbyrace (talk) 09:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't spam pages. Both Avicenna (Sina) and (Tusi) are not Arabic surnames, plus both of them have Persian works along with Biruni who has Persian works. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 11:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


Tusi was Persian as it is well known

I can't believe some misinformants use wikipedia to push non-scientific agendas.

Not only Encyclopedias like Britannica and books on him agree (Seyyed H. Badakhchani. ) (and Tusi has a good amount of Persian works and he might have been familiar also with Mongolian and Uighyur due to these languages being spoken by the elite of the Mongols), But also Ibn Khaldun the Arabian scholar has mentioned this explicity: See: James Winston Morris, "An Arab Machiavelli? Rhetoric, Philosophy and Politics in Ibn Khaldun’s Critique of Sufism", Harvard Middle Eastern and Islamic Review 8 (2009), pp 242–291. [1] excerpt from page 286 (footnote 39): "Ibn Khaldun’s own personal opinion is no doubt summarized in his pointed remark (Q 3: 274) that Tusi was better than any other later Iranian scholar". Original Arabic: Muqaddimat Ibn Khaldūn : dirāsah usūlīyah tārīkhīyah / li-Aḥmad Ṣubḥī Manṣūr-al-Qāhirah : Markaz Ibn Khaldūn : Dār al-Amīn, 1998. ISBN: 9771960709. Excerpt from Ibn Khaldun is found in the section: الفصل الثالث و الأربعون: في أن حملة العلم في الإسلام أكثرهم العجم (On how the majority who carried knowledge forward in Islam were Persians) In this section, see the sentence sentence where he mentions Tusi as more knowledgeable than other later Persian ('Ajam) scholars: . و أما غيره من العجم فلم نر لهم من بعد الإمام ابن الخطيب و نصير الدين الطوسي كلاما يعول على نهايته في الإصابة. فاعتير ذلك و تأمله تر عجبا في أحوال الخليقة. و الله يخلق ما بشاء لا شريك له الملك و له الحمد و هو على كل شيء قدير و حسبنا الله و نعم الوكيل و الحمد لله.

James Morris is a well known scholar of the Near Eastern thoughts and also an online version of Ibn Khaldun is available where this quote can be verified. --Chetory8 (talk) 22:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Stable Version

See the stable version here: [2]--Chetory10 (talk) 17:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely that he is Persian based on what Ibn Khaldoun wrote, but I still think his name should be written in Arabic نصير الدين الطوسي and not in Persian. Reason being is that he wrote most of his works in Arabic and not Persian and his name is an Arabic name. The fact that he is Persian should not mean that his name must be also written in Persian.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 17:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Correct name

His true name in Persian language is Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad ibn Ḥasan Ṭūsī. Mohsen Abdollahi (talk) 12:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Sources

Some sources were removed but I just shortened it to one ref. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone have: "Seyyed H. Badakhchani. Contemplation and Action: The Spiritual Autobiography of a Muslim Scholar: Nasir al-Din Tusi (In Association With the Institute of Ismaili Studies. I. B. Tauris (December 3, 1999)." Full book.. Only partial google books pages are available, but I would believe that such a specialized source would be good for this article. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup3. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.

Johnuniq (talk) 11:26, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Tusi's origin being vandalized

  • The Persian origin of Tusi is well sourced amongst the sources: [3] although it constantly gets vandalized in this article by anonymous ips.
  • "Tusi, Nasir al-Din al-." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2007. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 27 December 2007 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9073899>.
  • Arthur Goldschmidt, Lawrence Davidson. "A Concise History of the Middle East", Westview Press, 2009. ninth edition, pg 127: "Hulegu, contrite at the damage he had wrought, patronized the great Persian scholar, Nasiruddin Tusi (d. 1274), who saved the lives of many other scientists and artists, accumulated a library of 400000 volumes, and built an astronomical ..."; [4]
  • Nanne Pieter George Joosse, Bar Hebraeus, "A Syriac encyclopaedia of Aristotelian philosophy: Barhebraeus (13th c.), Butyrum sapientiae, books of ethics, economy, and politics: a critical edition, with introduction, translation, commentary, and glossaries", Published by Brill, 2004. excerpt: " the famous Persian scholar Naslr al-Dln al-Tusi ";
  • Seyyed Hossein Nasr," Title Islamic philosophy from its origin to the present: philosophy in the land of prophecy",Publisher SUNY Press, 2006. pp 167: “In fact it was common among Persian Islamic philosophers to write few quatrains on the side often in the spirit of some of the poems of Khayyam singing about the impermanence of the world and its transience and similar themes. One needs to only recall the names of Ibn Sina, Suhrawardi, Nasir al-Din Tusi and Mulla Sadra, who wrote poems alongs with extensive prose works”*

Rodney Collomb, "The rise and fall of the Arab Empire and the founding of Western pre-eminence", Published by Spellmount, 2006. pg 127: "..Khawaja Nasr ed-Din Tusi, the Persian, Khorasani, former chief scholar and scientist of ";

  • M.A. Al-Bakhit, L. Bazin, S.M. Cissoko, Volume 4 of History of humanity : scientific and cultural development Routledge, 2000. [5]

pg 367: "the Persian astronomer and philosopher Nasir al-Din Tusi".

  • Seyyed H. Badakhchani. Contemplation and Action: The Spiritual Autobiography of a Muslim Scholar: Nasir al-Din Tusi (In Association With the Institute of Ismaili Studies. I. B. Tauris (December 3, 1999). ISBN 1-86064-523-2. page.1: ""Nasir al-Din Abu Ja`far Muhammad b. Muhammad b. Hasan al-Tusi:, the renowned Persian astronomer, philosopher and theologian"
  • There is a constant vandalism on this article were Persian(Iranian) is changed to Azerbaijani (which means Turkish). Tusi was Persian Vizier and infact the ethnic term "Azerbijani" (which is another way to say Turkish) did not exist then.
  • The Encyclopaedia of Islam only mentions also Tusi wrote in Arabic and Persian (this is the top quality source). H. Daiber, F.J. Ragep, "Al-Tusi" in Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman, Th. Bianquis, C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2007. Brill Online. Quote: "Al-Tusi's prose writings, which number over 150 works, represent one of the largest collections by a single Islamic author. Writing in both Arabic and Persian, Nasir al-Din dealt with both religious ("Islamic") topics and non-religious or secular subjects ("the ancient sciences")."
    • There is a wrong claim by Prof. Nasir (who also mentions Tusi is Persian anyhow) that a work on geomancy of Tusi is written in Persian, Arabic, Turkish (does not specify what type of Turkish?) but further contact with author (Seyyed Hossein Nasr) and research shows that this claim be false, and Encyclopaedia of Islam has mentioned only Persian and Arabic, and Prof. Nasr has mentioned that he will correct this mistake in future edition of his work. This claim was made first here: [6]. Indeed if Tusi ever wrote anything Turkish (what type?), it would have been the earliest Turkish literature specimen from Western Iran, and noted say in Encyclopaedia of Islam and other works on Turkish writing by Turkologists. But he has no such writing and unfortunately a wrong claim from one journal in Pakistan came into several books, but as noted Encyclopaedia of Islam, Britannica (the most recent which has been corrected) mention that he wrote only in Persian and Arabic. Encyclopaedia of Islam is correct and indeed exceptional claim requires exceptional sources (say from mainstream Turkologists and great scholars who have actually examined such a non-existent manuscript).
  • Of course Tusi being the Vaziers of Ilkhanids whose troops were mainly of Turkish stock might have known a variety of languages. There were many Persian scholars who moved into the Ottoman empire and wrote in Turkish. So the claim that Tusi is Persian does not rest on the fact that he only knew Persian and Arabic, and wrote at least 25 significant works in Persian. Rather, the claim is supported by medieval biographers (Ibn Khaldun), the culture he produced, his Ismai'ili background (before becoming a twelver) and the fact that he is not considered Turkish by any competent authorities, and the sources for Persian are overwhelming in google books/scholar etc.) (for wikipedia WP:RS). As typical in Islamic history, Persian Viziers were the most powerful figures after the King in Turo-Persian and Perso-Mongol empires.
  • Unlike "Turkish", the usage of "Azerbaijani" is not valid for the 12th century as at most it means a geographical region (but Tusi was born i
    • “ The concept of Azeri identity barely appears at all before 1920. Up until that point Azerbaijan had been a purely geographical area. Before 1924, the Russians called Azeri Tatars "Turk" or "Muslims" Roy, O. (2007), The new Central Asia, I.B. Tauris. (note I am saying if someone was historically Turkish , then they should be called Turkish as Azeri is a new name. If they were Persian/Iranian, then they should be called Persian/Iranian) . As the "Azeri-Turkish" ethnicity was not formulated yet during the 12th-13th century. Rybakov: "Speaking of the Azerbaijan culture originating at that time, in the XIV-XV cc., one must bear in mind, first of all, literature and other parts of culture organically connected with the language. As for the material culture, it remained traditional even after the Turkicization of the local population. However, the presence of a massive layer of Iranians that took part in the formation of the Azerbaijani ethnos, have imposed its imprint, primarily on the lexicon of the Azerbaijani language which contains a great number of Iranian and Arabic words. The latter entered both the Azerbaijani and the Turkish language mainly through the Iranian intermediary. Having become independent, the Azerbaijani culture retained close connections with the Iranian and Arab cultures. They were reinforced by common religion and common cultural-historical traditions.”[ "“History of the East” (“Transcaucasia in XI-XV centuries” in Rostislav Borisovich Rybakov (editor), History of the East. 6 volumes. v. 2. “East during the Middle Ages: Chapter V., 2002. – ISBN 5-02-017711-3. http://gumilevica.kulichki.com/HE2/he2510.htm )".
  • I would to note Tusi was born in the same city as Ferdowsi, and again the sources for Persian are overwhelming. Here is one actually from a Turkish scholar:
    • Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu, in "Cross-fertilization between Arabic and other languages of Islam" in Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu, "culture and learning in Islam", UNESCO, 2003. pg 107: "When the caliphate was transferred from Baghdad to Egypt in the seventh/thirteenth century, a great transform occured in the Persian language, which began to evolve its own rules and move away from typically Arabic sentence structure, reverting to modes of expression common in Middle Persian. Persian thinkers and scholars such as Nasir al-Din Tusi developed new constructions." [7] (the article is about impact of non-Arabic languages). --108.18.222.120 (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Archive 1

No vandalism please with stamp

There is a stamp that shows Tusi as an "Azerbaijani philosopher" that is inserted once in a while in this article. The whole thing is false because:

  • Tusi was born in Khorasan. He worked in Baghdad, Maragha, Alamut etc.. He is consequently a Khorasani
  • His ethnicity is Persian from Tus Khorasan..same city as Ferdowsi, Asadi Tusi, Nizam al-Molk Tusi, Ghazzali Tusi, etc.
  • Azerbaijani (a name adopted by people that were called Turkoman/Turks historically in the 20th century) in Wikipedia denotes an ethnic group that was not around during the time of Tusi. Rybakov: "Speaking of the Azerbaijan culture originating at that time, in the XIV-XV cc., one must bear in mind, first of all, literature and other parts of culture organically connected with the language. As for the material culture, it remained traditional even after the Turkicization of the local population. However, the presence of a massive layer of Iranians that took part in the formation of the Azerbaijani ethnos, have imposed its imprint, primarily on the lexicon of the Azerbaijani language which contains a great number of Iranian and Arabic words. The latter entered both the Azerbaijani and the Turkish language mainly through the Iranian intermediary. Having become independent, the Azerbaijani culture retained close connections with the Iranian and Arab cultures. They were reinforced by common religion and common cultural-historical traditions.”[ "“History of the East” (“Transcaucasia in XI-XV centuries” in Rostislav Borisovich Rybakov (editor), History of the East. 6 volumes. v. 2. “East during the Middle Ages: Chapter V., 2002. – ISBN 5-02-017711-3. http://gumilevica.kulichki.com/HE2/he2510.htm )". So primary definition of "Azerbaijani" is Azeri-Turk today, which Tusi was not one.
  • The geographical argument is flawed ..as if someone that works in France but is born in say Pakistan becomes "French". The concept of national identity and state identity did not exist in the 12th century. Hence, one uses Iranian (Iranic) for Iranian peoples, and "Turk" for Oghuz/Qypchaq speaking people, and not modern designators. Ethnic designators based on geography is flawed for 12th century and "Azerbaijan"(the historical region of NW Iran) anyhow has historically been part of Iran since Medes, Achaemenids,..and even though Iran was not a unified state, the concept of Iran as a geographical-ethno idea existed throughout the Islamic era, specially during the Ilkhanids times [8].
  • Even in the 20th century, an Armenian or Russian born in Azerbaijan would not consider himself an Azerbaijani Turk just like a Turk (Azeri-Turk) born in Armenia is not an "Armenian scientist". Tusi is not considered a Turk, so he is not an Azerbaijani. Like many great Persian Viziers (Nizam al-Molk, Hasank Vazier, Moin al-Din Parvana, Amir Kabir) of Turkish empires..he was the Vizier of a Mongol empire. This was the case for many Turco-Mongol dynasties whose Viziers were Iranians (Nishapuri, Zahir al-Din Nishapuri (2001), "The History of the Seljuq Turks from the Jami’ al-Tawarikh: An Ilkhanid Adaptation of the Saljuq-nama of Zahir al-Din Nishapuri," Partial tr. K.A. Luther, ed. C.E. Bosworth, Richmond, UK. K.A. Luther: "... the Turks were illiteratre and uncultivated when they arrived in Khurasan and had to depend on Iranian scribes, poets, jurists and theologians to man the institution of the Empire"(pg 9) )..Tusi probably also knew Uighyur or Mongolic which he likely used to communicate with the Mongol Sulans.
  • So please let us keep Wikipedia professional. Iranian and Turk in the 12th century is complete linguistic designators. If Tusi was born as a Persian in the republic of Azerbaijan in the 20th century, that would be a different matter. However, national identities for the 12th century is baseless,..hence ethnic identity is what takes precedence and he is an ethnic Persian (Iranian) from Khorasan..the only valid geographical designator would be Khorasani (which is not a confusing term as no ethnic group has picked it up as its name in the 20th century). Thank you. --96.255.251.165 (talk) 00:46, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

It has been discussed above. To talk about an "Azerbaijani identity" or even ethnic group in the 12th century is anachronistici. The stamp is not in English but it says "Azerbaycan alimi" =Azerbaijani scientist. "Azerbaijani" means: 1) Azeri-Turkish (the ethnonym was adopted in the 20th century and so it does not apply in the 12th century). Tusi was not an Turkish and was not from Azerbaijan (province of Iran). 2)geographical use..which again would not make sense here and should be "born from Iranian Azerbaijan" to not add to the confusion. However, we was born as a Persian from Tus in Khorasan (the same city as Ferdowsi, Asadi Tusi, etc.). The stamp is irrelavant to the quality of the article but since it is controversial, it should be left out. For example the Encycloapedia of Islam article on Tusi contains no such stamps that can give readers a wrong opinion. I believe the republic of Azerbaijan is trying to claim Tusi as a Turkish scientists. The execuse that he worked in Iranian Azerbaijan is also not good one. He also worked in Alamut, Baghdad, etc. So the stamp is not WP:RS and does improve in understanding Tusi. It is just made for nationalistic reasons to deny the fact that Tusi was a Persian from Khorasan.--108.18.145.11 (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

the stamp

Has been discussed sufficiently above. I worked in France for 3 weeks, I am not French. The concept of citizenship or dual citizenship did not exist back done. So that is not a good reason. Modern geographics is not relavant. I like people from the republic of Azerbaijan but Iranian Azerbaijan is in Iran, so the stamp should mention Iran. However, there is no point to the stamp. I hope this silly dispute ends. These are 20/21th century silly disputes. As per the stamp, I do not think it contributes anything to the article. It is controversial and there is no WP:RS source that mentions that the stamp is necessary for knowing Tusi. The article mentions his observatory in Maragha. That is fine. Iranian Azarbaijan is still a diverse place (not mono-ethnic)..and it is part of Iran. Even if it was not, Tusi would still be a Khorasani Persian from Tus. So these sort of disputes are silly and counterproductive. Best wishes for the good people of the region (Iran, Azerbaijan etc.). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.145.11 (talk) 20:48, 14 September 2012 (UTC) So no need for another silly dispute..

There is a stamp from Iran in the article, which you don't object to. The one from A seems similar. Neither claims that he was one of them; they're only honouring him. Your "there is no WP:RS source that mentions that the stamp is necessary for knowing Tusi" is silly - there is no such criterion for including things in the article William M. Connolley (talk) 21:47, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Actually it does..it says "Azerbaycan Alimi" which means "Azerbaijani Scientist".. However, there was no Azerbaijani nationality back then as the republic of Azerbaijan did not exist and still , Tusi would be an Iranian national if you use modern standards.
Second, the stamp states; "Scientist of Azerbaijan" which is making a nationality claim on Iranian lands. Tusi was not from Azerbaijan nor was he Turkish (where the name Azerbaijani was adopted by Turcophones of the Caucasus in the 19th/20th century which is much after Tusi).
So it does - in writing so small you can't read it unless you look at the full-sized version. But it doesn't matter. That text is what they say; wiki isn't endorsing it by including it, and more than we endorse the Iranian claims by including their stamp William M. Connolley (talk) 07:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
The stamp from Iran makes no nationality claim. Furthermore, the English part of the stamp from the republic of Azerbaijan states: "Outstanding scientist of Azerbaijan". But that is factually wrong and absolutely false. It is making a national claim. Tusi is from Tus Khorasan.. He worked in different places in Iran including Maragha (in East Azerbaijan province), Baghdad, Alamut, Khorasan, Qom, etc. It is like Newton hypothetically working in Croatia (which did not exist as an entity then),he doesn't become a scientist of Croatia.
The stamp from Iran is there without any controversy. Because he is from Iran. He is not from the republic of Azerbaijan. Second he was not an Azerbaijani (not from the republic of Azerbaijan, not an Azerbaijani Turk, nor an Azeri from Iran), but he is Persian from Tus from Khorasan, modern Iran. All the sources state he was born in Tus, Iran (Khorasan Province). However, it is fine if people want to remove stamps as it does not really contribute to the article. --108.18.145.11 (talk) 00:01, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
You seem to have forgotten your careful stuff about how nationality now and then don't match. He isn't from "Iran" because it didn't exist then. But no-one except the nationalists really care about this stuff, for everyone else this tedious fighting is tiresome. Good bye William M. Connolley (talk) 07:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree with you that modern nation-citizenship concepts did not exist...Although Iran as a state concept existed during the Sassanid times as an official name/territory. In the Islamic era, geographical-cultural Iran did exist and actually was officially used in the Ilkhanid domain. Ahmad Ashraf, "IRANIAN IDENTITY iii. MEDIEVAL ISLAMIC PERIOD" in Encyclopaedia Iranica. "The prominent historians of this period frequently referred to Iran and Irānzamin both as historical notions and as contemporaneous entities" [9]
  • Anyhow these are all besides the discussion...Tusi was simply a Pesian from the city of Tus in Khorasan in modern Iran.
  • Khorasan, Azerbaijan etc..were definitly not national states..and a national state with the name Azerbaijan officially is from the 20th century. However, all this does not matter as Tusi is simply a Persian from Khorasan. We should note the term Iranian at least before modern states

denotes Iranian peoples primarily (half of which live outside of Iran). All that stuff on the side.--108.18.145.11 (talk) 11:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

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