Talk:Names of the days of the week/Archive 1

Archive 1

IPA for Pronunciation

I have changed the pseudo-phonetic pronunciations of the English days for the weeks for phonetic ones (following IPA). I encourage this process in all areas of Wikipedia. There's a reason for standards. If anyone is unfamiliar with IPA but would like to represent pronunciation in a standard format (the International Phonetic Alphabet), don't hesitate to ask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alaquwel (talk • contribs) 03:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Germans don't work on Mondays

In the 'First day of the week' section of the article there is this funny note that states that shops and museums are closed on Mondays in Germany. I think this is actually of no interest regarding the 'First day of the week'. And furthermore is it wrong. In Germany museums and some shops (mainly restaurants and barber shops) are closed on Monday, if they have been open for the preceding weekend (Saturday and Sunday) or at least the preceding Saturday. All other shops are open on Monday. 62.180.88.178 14:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Arabic week

I've just added a mention of the days of the week in Arabic. If anyone knows the origin of this nomenclature (whether or not it derives from christian sources) that would be of interest. Rafaelgr 03:00, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Arabic week was in existence before Muhammad, and, like the tabulated numerical weeks, including the week of the early Christian church, names the seventh day as the Sabbath, hence it almost certainly derives from the Jewish week. Before Muhammad, Jews were a prominent Arab minority, whereas Christians were not. Most pre-Islamic Arabs were polytheistic. Note that Muhammad destroyed the many idols that were present in front of the Kaaba (a pre-Islamic shrine). The day of assembly (Friday) also predates Muhammad, hence was the assembly day of pre-Islamic Arabs. A glaring omission in the table of numerical weeks is the Jewish or Hebrew week, from which all of the others ultimately derive. — Joe Kress 06:48, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Whoever did this page, GREAT WORK. It is very clear and a vast improvement on the old Days of the Week page, especially the irrelevant and erroneous section on the days of the week in China, Japan, and India. --Bathrobe

I've added the Indian weekdays. I translated them literally, so instead of Soma's day, it is simply (the) Soma day (well, lit., actually 'period'). I placed the Indo-Aryan languages after the other IE langs (with exception to Finnish) and before Japanese and Korean. I don't know what the last Indian section contained, but I can assure you that this information is not erroneous. It started in my Hindi class last night. I knew Soma was the god of the moon as well as his namesake; but thought it was a coincidence and never thought to look up the others. When I did, they were all named after minor planetary deities! I come to this page, and bam! Exactly alligned. The anthropological significance is fascinating, indicating many things about the relationship between civilizations, and each civilization's relationship with the heavens. I sure more could be written on the auspiciousness of each Indian weekday, and all that, but I'll that that up to someone else if they want. Sorry if the orange is too bright, I merely thought it appropriate. I also added the four other Celtic langs., though they are so similar I'm sorry if that was a redundant thing to do. Khirad 22:12, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Seven Times Around the Kaaba

I have read that Muslims walk around the Kaaba seven times in some ritual, and I see a possible tie to the seven heavenly objects that were worshipped by the ancient middle eastern people. Each of the seven heavenly objects were represented in the days of the week, and many of our weekdays are named after them. The ritual of walking around some central place of worship symbolizes the seven heavenly objects revolving around the sun, or the earth, in an earth-centered solar-system which was the generally-accepted cosmic view in ancient times.

The Kaaba is said to contain a special "stone" which "fell from heaven" and I take it to mean that the stone is probably a meteorite, and the ancient people started worshipping it and walking around it in their religious rituals... — Chrisptx

I never thought about the circumambulation of the Ka'aba in this light. I've also read that it is thought to be a meteorite. Interesting stuff. Khirad 02:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew

I added the Hebrew week at the suggestion of Joe Kress. I do not know Hebrew, but am familiar enough with the script to do this (I think!). Saturday, i.e. shavāt, I've seen with and without yōm. Since Gen. 2:3 said God named this day (and the others were numbered), I decided in favor of omitting the yōm. This is bare bones with no nikkud (diacritical dots). If anyone thinks the nikkud or transliteration are preferable I can do the nikkud and approximate the pronunciation - though I'm probably not the best person for the latter. I placed the Hebrew after Latin because of its significance and wasn't sure where to put it. Whether or not it should go before Latin or anywhere else doesn't matter to me. ;-) Khirad 02:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

In Chinese, days of the week...

... are numbered except Sunday.

Describe which are the numbers, or delete.

The next sentence: Thus, the "first" day of the week starts on Monday. doesn't seem to relate to the precedent one. Please recast or delete. Jclerman 09:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction

Apparently Microsoft disagrees with Monday being the first day of the week. They cite the same ISO standard.

FirstDayOfWeek.System: 0 First day of week specified in system settings

FirstDayOfWeek.Sunday: 1 Sunday (default)

FirstDayOfWeek.Monday: 2 Monday (complies with ISO standard 8601, section 3.17)

FirstDayOfWeek.Tuesday: 3 Tuesday

FirstDayOfWeek.Wednesday: 4 Wednesday

FirstDayOfWeek.Thursday: 5 Thursday

FirstDayOfWeek.Friday: 6 Friday

FirstDayOfWeek.Saturday: 7 Saturday

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.196.132 (talk • contribs)

Sunday first day of week

I've grown up thinking that Sunday was the first day of the week, and on calenders it is. wtfff? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.130.82 (talk • contribs)

Europe has apparently decided that since the workweek begins on Monday, that that should be the first day of the week. — Joe Kress 23:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

In Europe Monday is currently the first day of the week. In some countries it changed fairly recently, the last 30 years or so, but I have no sources for that. Mlewan 10:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the week starts on a Sunday in the US. Could someone (who is 100% instead of 99.9% sure) state that explicitly in the article? Mlewan 10:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

you're 100% correct. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.21.96.49 (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

I have lived my whole life in Brazil and I´ve never heard that Sunday is the first day of the week. Monday is the first day of the week. I changed the article accordingly. Lomibz 20:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This last comment is particularly interesting given the names of the days of the week in Portuguese: Monday is 'second day', Tuesday is 'third day', and so on. See, for example the Portuguese Wikipedia page on the days of the week. Yes, I know people can claim any days is the start of the week despite numbers inherent in day names ... my Arabic teacher insisted the week started on Saturday, despite the name for Monday being obviously derived from the word for 'two'. On the Slavic (and possibly Baltic) names for days of the week, 'Monday' in Polish is 'poniedzialek' (omitting the diacritic), meaning 'day after sunday / non-working-day'. Then Tuesday is 'second' (presumably day after sunday), and so on as mentioned in the page. Parshva (talk) 08:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

SUNDAY is the first day of the week. SATURDAY is the true Sabbath it is that simple.... Study: Matthew,Mark,john and Luke in your bible...The truth will set you free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.80.48 (talk) 21:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I've lived in the UK all of my life and have never heard of Sunday being considered the first day of the week. Surely it's definitely monday (in the UK at least). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.193.185 (talk) 01:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Anglo-saxons

"What is different is that the gods in question do not appear to rule over the planets involved" true, but they do have the same charactistics of the Roman gods attributed to each planet, eg. Freya and Venus goddesses of love, Tyr and Mars gods of war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.12.200.49 (talk • contribs)

I'd like more info on how these names have survived. The article says: "The early Christian Church was uncomfortable using names based on "false" pagan gods, and introduced a simple numerical nomenclature" but why just the early church? Did they just get accustomed to the names and let it go? The medieval church was pretty uncompromising with things it felt 'uncomfortable' with and tended to do something about it. They were not known for tolerating the leftover evidence of pagan worship so how come this survived? --Spondoolicks 21:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes the terms are so ingrained in the language that no one can displace them. Consider the Russian name for Sunday—even though воскресенье (voskresen'ye) literally means "resurrection", the atheistic Soviet Union continued to use it throughout its history, including every single week in its official newspaper, Pravda. — Joe Kress 23:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Greek days

Would it be possible for someone to add the Greek days of the week to this list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.33.125.119 (talk • contribs)

Sure. Mlewan 10:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

What are the ANCIENT Greek names?

10 day week

Wasn't there an attempt during the French Revolution to introduce a ten day week (so that people wouldn't even know when Sunday was)? I remember hearing about in a documentary - they also tried to decimalize the day so that there were ten "hours" sub-divided into ten "seconds". If anyone knows enough about this to add a section they probably should. Snowboardpunk

From 1793 to 1802, a ten-day week was used in France. See the French Republican Calendar for the details. Decimal time was a failure in France, despite several attempts by the government to get the people to use it between 1793 and 1795. A day had 10 hours, each hour had 100 minutes, and each minute had 100 seconds. — Joe Kress 23:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Sort Order in the Tables

I'm fine with the "linguistic" sort order in the Astronomical table. However, the Numeric table seems chaotic. Would anyone object if we changed it to two tables, one for "Numeric, starting on Monday" and one for "Numeric, starting on Sunday"? Within each table we could then preserve the "linguistic" sort order. (An alternative is to use alphabetic order, but I think it wouldn't work well in the context.)

Saturn God of Time?

The concept of Saturn being the God of Time is not a Greco-Roman invention but a mis-association between Cronos (the Greek god on which Saturn is somewhat "based" (see Ancient Roman Religion and Chronus the personification of Time, see Cronus and Chronos) I believe this is a modern invention, but from when, I'm not sure. In any case I've removed the part about Saturn being the god of time.Arthurian Legend 16:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The linguistic association between chronos and Kronos goes back at least to Plato. If I recall correctly the association is made both in the Cratylus and in the Timaeus, as well as (possibly) the Republic. --Cratylus22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.42.143.168 (talk) 07:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Unicode instead of SVG?

Did anyone consider using the unicode characters for the planets instead of the SVGs? It seems they are all there: ♀♂☿♃♄☽☾☉☼, so it may be superfluous to try to make new pictures for them. Mlewan 19:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Months of the Year

I've tried searching for a similar article for the months of the year. Would someone be able to create that page?

I think the logic of the naming of this article is that it cannot be called "Days", as that could be any kind of days. It could have been called "Weekdays", I guess, but it isn't. Anyhow, the closest thing for months of the year is simply Month. Mlewan 09:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Christain influence?

i smell a bit of idealogy in this sentence, somthing about the """false pagan gods""" threw it up... i suggest the removal of false.

The early Christian Church was uncomfortable using names based on "false" pagan gods,

I think your nose is a little over-sensitive. The word is in quotation marks, which makes it clear that the judgement is that of the early Christian Church, not that of Wikipedia. But, if you are really concerned about it, how about: The early Christian Church was uncomfortable using names based on pagan gods it considered to be false. --Chris Bennett 21:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Though

Saturday and Sunday are commonly called the weekend : well, I find that rather funny since sunday is put at first day of the week :) Darkoneko 13:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC) I think that the weekend is so named because it encompasses both ends of the week, the beginning and the end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.130.185.198 (talk • contribs) .

(Sorry, I am still learning how to post comments here, and I accidentally deleted your comments. So now I am adding them again.) The week for many people (e.g. in Europe) starts on Monday. Saturday and Sunday are the last days of the week and are therefore called the weekend.

The concept of the "weekend" existed before the rearranging of the week by Europeans. The origin, I believe, is that they were the ENDS (like Bookends) of the week, Lord's Day and Sabbath.

Akan week days

Akan (Ghana) have a 6 day and a 7 day week simultaneously. The 7 day week is also based on gods, or rather Akan deities. Interestingly, the day for Monday (Dwoada) literally is the day of the deity of the moon. I don't know if the other days also match up, but it would be interesting to research. Two articles that talk about the Akan calendars can be found at http://www.scn.org/rdi/kw-40.htm and http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6480

Lame opening.

Why does the article start with this incomprehensible giberish?

In English the days of the week are:

Sunday first: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday Monday first: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday

Surely someone can do much much better.

Also the article is contradictory in that it states the seven days go back to the Egyptians or Bablyonians but then say (two paras down) that it came into use in the 1st century. By who? From where?

A contradiction

There seems to be a contradiction. At the top of the wiki it says "In many countries, including most of Europe, Asia, and South America, Monday is held to be the first day of the week."

Yet under "First day of the week" in the third paragraph it says "Currently, the traditional Sunday-first system is used by some English speakers and much of Latin America, while most of continental Europe uses the Monday-first order."

Gods or Planets?

The article keeps refering to gods as the namesakes of the days of the week. If that's so why are there only seven? Weren't the days named after the seven classical planets? Yes it seems pedantic, since the planets were named after gods, but the week was adapted in part due to the influence of Jews and Christians, and they surely did not name the days after gods. Rwflammang 03:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The names PREDATE Christianity, so Christians didn't name days after any planet or pagan gods. The Christian names are God day (Sunday), second day, third day, etc, until Sabbath (Saturday). Most of Europe didn't really care for the name change except for weekends (when people were more likely to be in Church). The major exceptions being Portugal and Greece and of course the Vatican.

Order (Correction?)

In the Order section there seems to be an error. It does appear that the Pompeian graffito CIL IV 418 states that Sunday a.d. VIII Id. Feb. A.U.C. 813 = 6 February A.D. 60, day 16 of a lunar month, was a market day in Cumae and the lunar date shows that the lunar month started on a.d. XI Kal. Feb. A.U.C. 813. 22 January A.D. 60 was a new moon. I have checked an Ephemeris and Jan 22 A.D. 60 was indeed a New Moon, therefore 16 days later (inclusive) would be Feb 6th. This day does calculate to a Wednesday using the modern system. However the modern system appears to reflect the ruler of the day, not the ruler of the night. The day ruler of Wednesday is Mercury and the night ruler is the Sun. It appears that the information in this Wiki article is reversed. This seems to be validated by Valens saying that the day began at SUNSET. Since the night ruler on Feb 6 A.D. 60 was the Sun, then this article should read as follows (only two changes are needed, in bold below):

According to Vettius Valens, the first hour of the day began at sunset, which follows Greek and Babylonian convention. He also states that the light and dark halves of the day were presided over by the heavenly bodies of the first hour of each half. This is confirmed by a Pompeian graffito which calls 6 February 60 a Sunday. By modern reckoning, which reflects the ruler of the day, it was a Wednesday, but according to the system described by Valens the nighttime hours were indeed controlled by the Sun.

See http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/ptolemies/chron/roman/ad60.htm for more info on the Pompeian graffito CIL IV 418.

Mbase1235 01:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried to clarify the disagreement you have identified in this paragraph, that between Valens and modern astrology. Chris Bennett, who wrote the original paragraph that you thought was wrong, and was also the author of your graffito reference and translator of the applicable paragraph by Valens, was quite insistent that the modern reckoning was the nighttime ruler. However, you are correct that modern astrology uses the daylight ruler for the entire day. So I suspect that Chris was actually referring to Valens' reckoning, without realizing that the modern reckoning has replaced night with day. — Joe Kress 07:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Week?

Lots of content seems to be similar or duplicated, perhaps a candidate for a merge. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.22.33.65 (talk) 00:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

I disagree. But I do think this page should be renamed '7 day week' and nearly all the content of Week moved here.

Week should link to this/7 Day Week and educate on all week systems. Romans 8 day week, Ancient Egypt 10 day week, etc

[1] mentions the 10 day week going as far back as the Shan Dynasty 1200-1045 BCE although Week only advises as far back as the Han Dynasty 206 BCE - 200 CE

Additionally WeekDoesn't mention were the word derives from, I read somewhere is has the same meaning as Market Day? I assume the idea of the week was to assist trade?

Pnb73 (talk) 20:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

First day of the week in South America?

There are two conflicting statements on this:

In the introduction:

In many countries, including, most of Europe, Asia, and South America, Monday is held to be the first day of the week. In others, including the United States, Canada, and in parts of Africa, Sunday is seen as the first day, a traditional view derived from the Jewish language via Ecclesiastical Latin. ISO 8601 defines Monday as the first day of the week, making Sunday the seventh.

Under "First day of the week":

Currently, the traditional Sunday-first system is used by some English speakers and much of Latin America, while most of continental Europe and the United Kingdom uses the Monday-first order.

..so which one is true now? I'm guessing Central America is all about Sunday while the rest is Monday, but it's not very clear. Can anyone elaborate a bit?

Wootini 17:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

South American isn't MUCH of Latin America, simply a very large part. If all of Mexico, Central America, and the Spanish Caribbean did something that South America didn't, I'd say MUCH of Latin American does it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.21.96.49 (talk) 18:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Sunday 1st, Monday 2nd In UK

In the UK, Sunday is the 1st day of the week and Monday is the 2nd. However, Monday is the 1st day of the 'working week' and perhaps that is where the confusion lies, therefore this is a 5 day week and the weekend is not incorporated.

Well you live in a different UK to me. Monday is the first day of the week! Jjasi 08:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, Monday is the first day of the week in the UK, maybe you should check your Locale settings -- johndrinkwater 22:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean exactly by 'LOCALE SETTINGS', but Sunday is the first day of the week as I was taught in school. When saying my point is wrong, you should maybe have said why, in some way. (Technically I myself did not give a great argument for my view, but anyway.)

Plus is there some speculation as to the origin of Saturday, because the old Anglo-Saxon spelling more closely resembles the god called Saetere, or something like that, than it does to Saturn? I think Saetere was god of crops and harvest and was linked to the Norse god Loki.

Sunday/Monday issue

According to previous comments, Sunday is the first day of the week in all English-speaking countries, so the article can be changed accordingly. It's indisputable that Sunday really is the first day of the week, and the other view is wrong. The way, the truth, and the light 18:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

"the other view is wrong" What a load of self-righteous tosh! You're basically saying "I don't agree with you so you're wrong". Does it not occur to you that there might me other viewpoints and that in any case the "start" day of the week is as arbitrary as the week itself is so there is no real right/wrong, simply accepted convention? Convention can of course change over time. In the UK at least, the accepted convention is now that the week starts on Monday! The only people trying to maintain it still starts on Sunday are those with a religious axe to grind - hardly appropriate in a secular administration. Jjasi 08:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no law in the UK over which day is the the first day of the week, and anybody is free to count from whichever day (s)he chooses. But I believe Monday is "normally" counted as the first day because:

• "Week to a page" diaries list the week with Monday at the top and Sunday at the bottom.
• The UK uses ISO 8601 week numbers, which start on a Monday.
• The US uses a different week numbering convention, which starts on a Sunday, and which in some years results in different numbers to the ISO standard.

I have worked in a number of establishments in many countries which all used ISO 8601 weeks for production planning, the only exception was one UK subsidiary of a US company (which will remain anonymous), which used the company-standard US numbering, much to the confusion of their suppliers, who all used ISO 8601 week numbering. TiffaF 13:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit reverted: Reason given - "probably incorrect"

Today I made some extensive formatting to this article for organizational purposes. I also clarified a number of points, including the proper terminology for various subjects relating to the Germanic origins of the names of the English days of the week. Not long after, all of my edits were reverted together - including all formating and error fixing edits - with the reason given as "rv probably incorrect edits" by User:The way, the truth, and the light.. I brought nothing new to this page, simply formatting and clarification. There's really nothing to dispute or even argue about that wasn't there before. Mind telling me what the deal is, "The Way"? :bloodofox: 04:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Two reasons. First, your repeated use of Germanic seems to suggest some sort of bias. Second, your claim that 'Sunday' and 'Monday' came from Anglo-Saxon gods rather than from the words 'Sun' and 'Moon', is linguistically absurd. The way, the truth, and the light 04:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

First, educate yourself on the term Germanic not only as a linguistic group but also as a general term. Second, considering every other day of the week is deriving from an Anglo-Saxon deity (whom were Germanic, by the way..) with the exception of Saturday and their pages themselves denote the relation, this is hardly absurd but, rather, very likely. Besides, is it too much to ask for you practice a common courtesy and go through and question what you find questionable, rather than revert an extensive edit full of formatting and technical corrections? :bloodofox: 04:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The pages for Sunday and Monday agree with me. True, the page Mani (god) claims that the OE word comes from the Norse word, but that's clearly wrong. Finally, when I see a bad edit, I normally revert the whole thing rather than take the time to go through every bit of it; there's nothing wrong with that. The way, the truth, and the light 04:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you take a closer look at both pages, they both implicitly note the connection of the names with said deities. I also recommend that you take a look at Mani (god), which also states a connection to the day of the week. If you have a policy to simply revert "bad edits" if you disagree with a single element of them, I strongly recommend that someone go through your edit history and take a look at your reverts. This applies double to your edits dealing with users without accounts, since they probably wouldn't be following up your disregard for their edits. :bloodofox: 04:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The information on Mani (god) was added by you today, and I just removed it. When I say 'bad edit' I don't mean any edit I don't completely agree with, I mean an edit that looks totally misguided, which is what yours looked like on glancing at the diff. The way, the truth, and the light 05:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

While I did edit the page, I believe that information was there before I was. You may also want to look at the Proto-Germanic and Proto-Norse pages to understand exactly how well connected English is to other Germanic languages and how such a thing could happen in the first place. True, the word usually comes before the deity but surely this was not lost upon the native inhabitants of these regions when this pagan calendar was put into use. I would think at least a passing, carefully worded mention at the potential connection is necessary. :bloodofox: 05:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like I did move that information there today. Woops! Probably from the Monday page when I was going through a bunch of related pages. :bloodofox: 05:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Also take a look at the chart for the day names, which includes an Old English section. There it lists an implicit connection as well, which was not something I added. :bloodofox: 05:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed you linguistic claims about 'Sunday' and 'Monday'. Please don't put them back unless you have a source for them. None of the other stuff in these articles supports you. The way, the truth, and the light 05:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The burden of evidence also rests on you, if you maintain that the Latin Lunes Dies was translated into "Monday" in a time when celestial bodies were not associated with divinities. We are talking of a translation taking place in pagan times. Don't fall back into old habits.--Berig 07:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not maintaining any such thing. I am asserting that 'Sunday' and 'Monday' came from the English words 'Sun' and 'Moon'. He is apparently implying that they came from Norse words, which is absurd. I will of course allow the statements about the deities if it the etymology is corrected. The way, the truth, and the light 07:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The translation of lunes dies into Monday took place at a time when the same thing happened all over Northern Europe. Technically, Monday does not come from the English language, but from Proto-Germanic, or a late dialect of Proto-Germanic that we can call "early Anglo-Saxon". What Bloodofox tried to add is the fact that the Moon was associated with a divinity called Mani in Old Norse and who was called Mona in Old English. Unfortunately, only Icelandic sources have survived about this Moon divinity which is why the article focuses on the Mani of Norse mythology. Bloodofox is a trustworthy user when such things are concerned and you would do better to show him the respect of not reverting him before discussing the matter with him.--Berig 07:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Confusing footnote

1. The Romance languages (Italian, Spanish, French, etc.) break from the pattern of using the Roman associations in preference for a Christian association: Sunday being the Christian day of rest, these days are named after the "day of our Lord". This is the norm in languages where names faithfully follow Church usage such as Portuguese.

I'm sorry, but this makes little sense. It needs to be rewritten, or removed. FilipeS 17:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I've modified the note. — Joe Kress 21:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Something has to be done about the incorrect (to some, i.e. not (NPOV)) order of the week

I'm interested on people's thoughts wrt ordering of the week. I tried what I thought was a sensible solution, ordering alphabetically rather than anyone's perceived preference. But I got reverted with a "that looks weird". So can we have a vote, or something similar ? -- johndrinkwater 21:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your alphabetical order because it does look weird, that is, I have never seen such an order for the days of the week. I changed the introduction on 26 October 2006 to a NPOV by listing both orders, Sunday first and Monday first. This introduction remained in the article for six months until 28 April 2007 when The way, the truth, and the light removed the Monday first order, complaining that it was wrong (see Sunday/Monday issue above) and repetitive. He states that only the order used in English-speaking countries should be listed. But the article lists the names of the days of the week in many other languages. The article does not state "In English-speaking countries", instead it says "In English", which to me includes any translation into English of any order used in other languages. His statement, "It's indisputable that Sunday really is the first day of the week, and the other view is wrong." is contradicted by the Slavic, Baltic, and Estonian languages listed in the last half of the numerical table, all of which literally name Tuesday, Thursday and Friday as the second, fourth and fifth days of the week. Of course I support making the article NPOV by listing both orders. — Joe Kress 06:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Sunday is also considered the first day of the week in Portugal. FilipeS 14:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Days of the week with a capital letter?

In the language comparison table, days of the week start with a capital letter in each language. I don't think that's right. I have no idea what would be correct in every language (maybe the author of de table does?), but French and Dutch for instance, do not use capitals for the days of the week.

Grammar

If I wanted to refer to the upcoming Sunday should I refer to it as 'this Sunday' or 'next Sunday'? I alway thought that the upcoming Sunday (or any day for that matter) would be referred to as 'this' and the following one as 'next' but I was recently told that was incorrect. If you call the upcoming Sunday 'next' then what do you call the following one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.213.245.177 (talk • contribs)

Could be a matter of dialect. In my variety (Australian) 'this Sunday' is the same as 'the coming Sunday' or 'next Sunday'.

The following Sunday I would call 'the Sunday after next' (I presume you call this 'next Sunday') or even better 'Sunday week'. But Americans apparently don't use this very convenient shorthand term.

Bathrobe 00:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

In my dialect (American) I would say 'this Sunday' only if the current day was within two days (possibly three) of Sunday, that is, if I was speaking on Friday (Thursday) or later. If I was speaking on Wednesday or earlier, I would say 'next Sunday' or 'this coming Sunday'. Then the following Sunday would be the 'Sunday after next'. — Joe Kress 03:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Joe Kress is probably right. I don't think I would refer to 'this Sunday' speaking from Monday of the previous week.

Bathrobe 04:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think I would. E.g. If it was Monday and I wanted to meet someone on Sunday I might ask "What are you doing this Sunday?" (I may say this coming Sunday but I don't it's essential) As I remark below, this Sunday isn't really a problem though since it's usually clear from the context what you mean. Nil Einne 11:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that often if you're referring to 'this Sunday' it should be fairly clear if you're referring the previous Sunday or the upcoming one by the tense of whatever you're talking about. (If someone says I'm meeting my father this Sunday they obviously mean a future event not a previous event). Personally, I don't think there is any problem with referring to the upcoming Sunday as this Sunday (except on Sunday of course). The bigger issue is whether someone means the upcoming Sunday or the Sunday after the upcoming Sunday when they say 'next Sunday'. Especially if it's a Monday. On Saturday, I would usually mean the Sunday after the upcoming Sunday if I say 'next Sunday' since otherwise I'll just say tomorrow. Other days of the week, probably the upcoming Sunday. For clarity though, I might ask or say "not this Sunday but the next?". BTW, I'm only referring to Sunday here. Even though I usually consider Sunday the first day of the week, Sunday is a part of both weeks in a way. For example, if I were referring to Monday, I would probably say next Monday or the coming Monday, not this Monday; even on Saturday. Nil Einne 11:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

In my experience Bathrobe is right, it's a matter of dialect. I grew up in Australia and expect "this" Sunday = "next" Sunday even on Monday -- yesterday is "last" Sunday -- and I live in California ("this Sunday" is ambiguous, so people use "this coming" Sunday = next Sunday, but I don't often hear "next" Sunday). --Chris Bennett 15:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Chinese

In modern Chinese, days of the week are numbered from one to six, except Sunday. Literally, the Chinese term of Sunday means "week day" (星期日 or 星期天). Monday is named literally "week one" in Chinese, Tuesday is "week two", and so on. However, China adopted the Western calendar, putting Sunday at the beginning of the calendar week, and Saturday (星期六, meaning "week six" in Chinese) at the end.

Another Chinese numbering system, found more in spoken Chinese than in written, refers to Sunday as the "day of worship" (礼拜日 or 礼拜天) and numbers the other days "first [day after] worship" (Monday) through "sixth [day after] worship" (Saturday). The Chinese word used for "worship" is associated with Christian and Muslim worship, and the system's use may be connected with the spread of Christianity

Two things here. Firstly, isn't it only Christian worship? Sunday isn't the Muslim day of worship. Secondly can someone confirm that Sunday is considered the first day of the calendar week in China? I'm pretty sure in Malaysia Monday remains the first day of week in most Chinese calendars Nil Einne 11:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

As a word, 礼拜 is used for both Christian and Muslim worship. With regard to the calendar, 礼拜 can mean only Christian worship.

It is hard to say that unequivocally that the calendar adopted by the Chinese put Sunday at the start of the week. I'm sure the seven-day week was adopted not once but several times. At least in some cases Sunday would have come at the start of the week since Christians put it there. But leaving aside the question of which was the 'first day', Sunday was clearly pivotal in the seven-day week because the word for week itself appears to be derived from the practice of worship (礼拜) on Sunday (礼拜天). Similarly, the numbering system 1-6 appears to be counting from Sunday rather than to Sunday.

Bathrobe 12:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess that the numerical system is used in Chinese in the modern calendar. What system is used in the traditional luni-solar calendar (according to which the traditional new year is celebrated)? Has China ever had a planetary system? Gantuya eng 00:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The Chinese did use the planetary naming system a long time ago, Tang dynasty and thereabouts -- that's where the Japanese names for days of the week came from.

As for your question concerning the luni-solar calendar, it's quite possible for the week to be completely divorced from lunar and solar cycles. The week as a seven-day cycle marches on regardless of any luni-solar calendar. It's a figment of the modern consciousness to see the years, months, and weeks as intimiately linked together. The Japanese did use the planetary names in conjunction with the luni-solar calendar for a very long time. But this has very little to do with the modern week, with its weekdays and weekends. It was an astrological thing.

I understand that before the introduction of the seven-day week, Oriental cultures used a ten-day cycle in regulating mundane affairs like work cycles, etc. To confirm this would require a bit more research, however.

Bathrobe 02:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. It would be interesting to do some research of the ten-days cycle. Gantuya eng 03:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Irish

Though not necessarily true in dialects, officially Irish has nominal and adverbial forms for the days. This table lists the adverbial forms (with links to the nominal forms in the Irish Wiktionary BTW), which while not incorrect exactly sounds a little folksy for an encyclopedia. I'm changing them to the nominal forms. ☸ Moilleadóir 09:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC) ☏

Origin of the Week

I can't believe that there is no mention of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis) that give the exact reason why we have a seven day week: God took six days to create/work and rested one. These texts predate all of the Chinese texts. Why aren't they mentioned?

The Babylonians were using a seven-day week even before that. FilipeS 14:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The biological origin of the week has been described by J.-C. Lerman in: SLEEP IS A DELIGHT ON SABBATH': CHRONOBIOLOGIC ORIGIN OF THE WEEK ?, "Sleep Research" (Brain Information Service/Brain Research Institute, UCLA), vol. 14, p.303 (1985). Jclerman (talk) 06:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Polish

Poniedzialek is Monday "after Sunday"; Wtorek is Tuesday "second day"; Sroda is Wednesday "middle"; Czwartek is Thursday "the fourth"; Piatek is Friday "the fifth"; Sobota is Saturdaderived from sabath; Niedziela is Sunday "no work"; Greg Wlodarski, Ides of March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.63.72.22 (talk) 20:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Ecclesiastical Latim and Portuguese

For all portuguese countries and peaple, the first day of the week is "segunda-feira", sunday is the resting day and "saturday followed by sunday" is the weekend. Only Portugal followed the ecclesialtical latim calendar in world.--Orlando Cesar (talk) 00:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I am moving Ecclesiastical Latin and Portuguese back to Sunday first because that is what the language calls these planetary days. These entries do not indicate the order of the weekdays in the country, only in the language. I also removed your dicussion about the weekend because it was already so stated at the beginning of the article. Bede, writing in 725 in Ecclesiastical Latin, explicitly stated that Sunday was day one, followed by "second weekday", "third weekday", etc. in chapter "8. The Week" of De temporum ratione. Lewis and Short, the pre-eminent Latin dictionary, states that feria means a week-day (end of feriae II) in Ecclesiastical Latin, not market day. — Joe Kress (talk) 06:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right. I removed the false translation "market day" since "segunda feira" comes from "secunda feria", directly from Latin as the article correctly states, and "secunda feria" means "second weekday" and not "second market day". In modern Galician-Portuguese, "feira" also means "market", but it was not the case in the year 580, when Galician-Portuguese did not exist at all. Also, modern Galician still retains the standard Portuguese names with the pagan system, perhaps because of the Spanish influence, but the feira-system are not abandoned yet.212.51.52.5 (talk) 23:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

In other languages - Germanic languages

"Dutch is the only other with an equivalent to Saturday."

Which equivalent? I live in the Netherlands and I only know of "Zaterdag".

24.132.19.10 (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Nobody responded, therefore I removed it.

I think the original editor might have been referring to Sneon, the frisian equivalent of Saturday. Although frisian is spoken in the Netherlands, it should not be referred to as Dutch.

213.93.92.230 (talk) 20:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

This article begs to differ Dutch language. (I hadn't realized the name was so old myself).Student7 (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

They do not disagree, Dutch is spoken in the Netherlands, as is Frisian. However, although most Frisians can speak Dutch, not every Dutchman speaks Frisian. Similar situations exist with Welsh in the UK, Catalan in Spain, French in Canada, etc.

So if a word is used in (West)Frisian, it is used in the Netherlands. When a word is used in the Netherlands, it does not automatically make it Dutch.

213.93.92.230 (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Georgian Week

Hello everyone! I can't really deal with tables, so just wanted to say that Georgian week doesn't start on Sunday but on Monday. Perhaps, someone might change that in future --გიგა (talk) 01:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Sunday/Monday again

The article states that "Most business and social calendars in the United Kingdom, Canada and Australia mark Monday as the first day of the week," but not since I was five years old have I believed that the week begins with Monday (I'm Australian by the way). Also, every calendar, the kind that people put on their walls, begins with Sunday.

There is at least some doubt and therefore it impossible to claim that it is certain that the week starts with Monday here. Constan69 (talk) 09:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Why not change it for Australia? The only folks I know where it starts on Monday, are the French.Student7 (talk) 14:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Order of the days?

So the eariest records of a 7 day week we use today are around 4400 years old. Instituted by Sargon, King of Akkad, founder of Mesopotamia. And they were based on the 7 Visible 'Wanders' that were thought to obit the center of the universe, Earth.

Why were they put in order of; Sun (Sunday), Moon, (Monday) Mars (Tuesday), Mercury (Wednesday), Jupiter Thursday), Venus (Friday), and Saturn (Saturday)?

Assumed Size? Assumed Distance? Orbit Frequency? Something else?

PS Additionally I think it makes more sense to start with the 'Origin' section instead of:

1. Names of the days 2. First day of the week.

Pnb73 (talk) 18:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I might have to rewrite the origins section. The problem is that I have not performed the necessary research. The week did NOT begin with Sargon, nor with the seven wanderers (that is a fringe suggestion). The seven-day week began among Jews exiled to Babylon after the First Temple was destroyed, even though the Babylonians themselves did not use it. Its basis in Babylon was that days 7, 14, 19, 21, and 28 of a lunar month were unlucky (see my entry in Talk:Week#Phase). Jews only numbered the days of the week without any association with the planets. The first association of the seven-day week with the planets was described by Vettius Valens during the second century AD, thus most scholars agree that that association began in Hellenistic Egypt, possibly as early as the Ptolemaic Dynasty. The origin of the planetary order is fully described in Days of the week#Astrology, now the last section of the article! What section should occur after the lead is usually determined by what we editors think most readers are interested in. History is often demoted to the last section for that reason. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Joe Kress. But I read in The Power of Seven (from the Economist Dec 20th 2001) The first recorded change came when the Sumerian week-system was transposed into the Semitic language spoken in the Babylonian empire. The day-names used in Babylon around 700BCE Even just that predates the Babylonian captivity of around 600BCE? Pnb73 (talk) 00:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the citation. Unfortunately, the Economist article does not cite its sources. It reads like numerology, mentioning several instances of the number seven, as if the mere presence of seven planetary gods implies a seven-day week, which is not a consequence. One phrase is telling: "running as if from our Sunday to our Saturday". This implies that they have reordered the gods to conform to our modern order, even though that was not the Babylonian order of the planets (not days). For the seven-day week, order is everything, as explained in Days of the week#Astrology. The article states that the week reached India from Mesopotamia more than 2000 years ago. But the earliest mention of the seven-day week (not the earliest mention of seven planetary gods) in Sanskrit sources occurs in 149/150 from "the Greeks", not the Babylonians or Chaldeans (see #need Greek above). Another false statement: It attributes the 60-minute hour to Sumeria, but that was not invented until the Middle Ages (see Second#History). If we ignore the "60-minute" part, then the division of the day into 24 equal parts is a Hellenistic Egyptian invention, based on a seasonal 24-hour day (day and night divided into 12 parts each) 2000 years earlier. There is some evidence for a seasonal 24-hour day in Hellenistic Babylon (2000 years after Sumer), but not of 24 equal hours. Instead, they divided their day into twelve equal parts, each of these "double-hours" was named a beru. Moreover, the Babylonians did not subdivide any of their units of time into 60 parts (see Talk:Second#History). In summary, this is not a reliable source. — Joe Kress (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Good stuff Joe Kress! Thanks! I found this Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 20 Page 890 which I hope is a good cite.
It mentions the evil/holy days of 7, 14, 21 and 28. The month being either 29 or 30 days (to keep in line with the lunation of 29.53 days). And; every month consisted of three weeks of seven days each, and one of nine or ten days, according to the length of the month.
It mentions the Sabbath being the full moon half way in the month. So it would make sense that the extra day or two of the new moon (unilluminated moon) was a good way of keeping the 7 days in line with the lunation.
So for now I agree; the earliest records of a 'constant' 7 day week should be down to the Jews but we should also acknowledge the Sumerians for the original concept of a 7 day week? Pnb73 (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the new citation. Hastings' Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics is a well respected reference which does cite its sources. I consider their section on the world's calendars one of the best I've ever read (Part 5, Volume 3, pp. 61-141). However, I was not aware of the particular entry you cite. If we ignore the 1st, then the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th delimit three seven-day weeks plus an eight- or nine-day week (not nine- or ten-) straddling the new crescent moon from the 28th to the 7th (3×7 + 8|9 = 29|30). The 19th marking a week-of-weeks (seven weeks) from the first of the previous month (1–7–14–21–28–5–12–19, assuming a 30-day month) reinforces this. But this set of seven-day weeks does not extend beyond one or two months without interruption, so the continuous seven-day week was invented by the Jews. I don't accept the Economist's contention that the names of the planets also were used to name days in either Sumer or Babylon, at least not without any reliable citation—this citation would have been an ideal place to mention days named for planets if the Babylonians actually used that concept. Furthermore, I'm not sure whether the Babylonians placed the planets in any particular order because they had no geometric concept of the solar system—the first geometric concept (epicycles) with appropriate distances from Earth was developed by the Greeks. The Babylonians described the planets mathematically as points of light on a celestial sphere an angular distance from a cardinal point, like first or last visibility. — Joe Kress (talk) 09:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind the Jews inventing the continuous 7 day week but how did the Romans get ahold of that and pass it on to us? It just seems unlikely that Jews in (say) 1000 BCE would have influenced Rome at all. Maybe Phoenicians? The Jewish culture just wasn't that influential in 1000 BCE IMO. Student7 (talk) 13:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The first mention of the seven-day week in a Latin source is on a fasti (calendar stone) from the late first century BC, which has a column of letters A–G for each month which indicate the day of the seven-day week for each day of the month. This column is alongside a column of letters A–H which indicate the day of the Roman eight-day week (nundinae) for every day of the month. No mention of planetary names occurs on this fasti. The seven day week (without planetary names) probably became known to Rome after Pompey conquered Judea in 63 BC, and especially after Augustus conquered Eqypt in 30 BC. At the time, Jews in Eqypt were more numerous and prosperous than Jews in Judea (consider the Septuagint). Most fasti included both columns of feriae from the late first century BC until the nundinae were outlawed by the Christain Emperor Theodosius I in the late fourth century. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again Joe Kress. From my basic research it appears that Sumerians named the planets after gods, edited by the Babalonians, assume then by the Greeks and then by the Romans; the names we have today.
What I find very interesting is the planet gods are all very similar from the Sumerians down to the Romans

• Mars = War Gods
• Mercury = Messengers Gods
• Jupiter = Leader of Gods Gods
• Venus = Love and Beauty Gods
• Saturn = Farming and Agriculture Gods

Babylon (around 700BC, replaced Sumerian Gods, not sure what they were yet)

• Sun = Shamash
• Moon = Sin
• Mars = Nergal
• Mercury = Nabu
• Jupiter= Marduk
• Venus = Ishtar
• Saturn = Ninurta

Ancient Greek

• Sun = Helios
• Moon = Selene
• Mercury = Hermes
• Venus = Aphrodite
• Mars = Ares
• Jupiter = Zeus
• Saturn = Kronos

Rome

• Sun = Sol
• Moon = Luna
• Mars = Mars
• Mercury = Mercurius
• Jupiter = Iuppiter
• Venus = Venus
• Saturn = Saturnus

Norse and Germanic (with exception to Saturn/Saturday. We use the Roman God as we didn't have an equivalent)

• Mars = Tyr (Tyr's Day/Tuesday)
• Mercury = Wodan AKA Odin (Wodan's Day/Wednesday)
• Jupiter = Thor (Thor's Day/Thursday)
• Venus = Freyja (Freyja's Day/Friday)

Additionally the Greeks probably inspired the Romans in naming of hours after their Planet Gods. Giving the names and order of the days we have today; See Horae#The_Hours--Pnb73 (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The first attested use of a planetary name for a day of the week occurs in a Roman graffito from Pompei in AD 60. The first complete list of planetary names for the days of the seven-day week is in Greek by Vettius Valens about AD 170 where he explains how these names were obtained from the planetary names for the hours (see Days of the week#Astrology). I have not traced the first appearance of all planetary names for the seven-day week in a Roman source. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure that you've covered all the bases but I question the conversion by the Romans from an 8-day week to a 7-day one. They were quite literate at the time. You'd think that someone might have mentioned this in a history. This has got to be a fairly disruptive transition. I think you are saying that the Emperor did it with the fictional consulting of the Senate? Just assuming since there is no record? Just trying to connect all the dots here. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 23:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Moved 'Days of the Week' to '7 Days of the Week'

The full explanation is not shown on the history so I've put it here if anyone wanted to know;

This page only relates to the days of the week of a 7 day week.

As there are many types of week, especially 5 and 10 day weeks with names etc. this allows, if wanted, a separate article(s). And to inform a visitor if looking for days of the week of other quantities of days that it only covers the 7 day week.

Days of the Week is already a very large article and needs cleaning. Adding information on days of other weeks would make it far too large and complicated.

Renaming 7 days of the week will allow for a focused development, and therefore a more acurate '7 Days of the Week'

I am currently rewriting Week and the draft can be viewed at User_talk:Pnb73/week. I haven't put it on yet as I'm sure people will want to know where all the other information has gone.

It's taking longer than I expected as most of the information currently in week to be moved to either 7 day week and 7 days of the week is not cited and with notes of 'citation needed' etc.

Rather than just delete it i'm trying to find cites and make adjustments if necessary to make the information more acurate. i.e. Week#Hindu_week I adjusted last night (shown on both 7 day week and week for the time being)).

So hope everyone agrees that moving this makes sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pnb73 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Major Edit

As Week as also had a major edit today

For information, see Talk:Week § Major_Amendment_to_this_article_.27Week.27.

Sections from that article have been amalgamated into this article;

From Week

1 Origins

• 1.1 Astronomy

3 First day of the week

And therefore Sections within this Article were cleaned up;

1 Names of the days

2 First day of the week

6 Astrology

These sections have now become;

1 Day Names

• 1.1 Stella Objects
• 1.2 English

2 Order of Days

• 2.1 Heptagram
• 2.2 First Hour of the Day

3 First day of the week

• 3.1 Sunday
• 3.2 Monday
• 3.3 Saturday

Section 3 Origins has been amalgamated within 7_Day_Week.

Appreciate any suggestions, comments, criticism, etc. Hope this is considered an improvement! --Pnb73 (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

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