Talk:Nahalin

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This article should be titled Nahalin. That is standard English spelling used in most sources. [1]. Tiamut 16:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1954 Reprisal raid

Zero is apparently bent on spinning this as some wanton Israeli raid, directed against a civilian village in Jordan even though Israel knew the perpetrators of an earlier massacre of Israeli citizens came from, Egypt. In fact, we have a reliable source, published in a peer reviewed academic magazine estating it was an attack on a military target - an Arab Legion base located in Nahalin. Unsurprisingly, those killed in the raid are almost without exception soldiers of that base - as reported even by Jordan, who had every interest in downplaying the military nature of the target and focusing on civilian casualties. Oren's claim that Israel "knew" the perpetrators came form Gaza is ad odds with Israel's position at the time ("Two sets of tracks were found - one leading towards the ambush from the direction of the Jordan frontier and another back towards it. United Nations Observers took an active part in following the footprints, an operation carried out with the help of expert trackers and police dogs."[2]), at odds with the findings of the mixed armistice commission("could distinguish incoming and outgoing [tracks] which he estimated to be those of about five persons and which he followed along a narrow path on the ridge for about 300 meters in a south-easterly direction."[3]) and at odds with that of most other sources on the incident. On top of that, the Nahalin raid was not a direct retaliation for Maale akrabim, but rather for a raid on Kislon. The spin that 'israel attacked Jordan though it knew the maale akrabim perpetrators came form gaza' is speculation and POV-pushing, which does not even belong in this article which is about Nahalin. What's next? Should we quote Livia Rokach who claims Maale Akrbim was an inside job perpetrated by Israelis?. Isarig 13:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are citing (1) an Israeli public statement made at the time; this is not a reliable source (compare Israel's claim that the Qibya raid was done by Israeli civilians); (2) an investigation which did not identify the source of the attackers. Some tracks were found but the trackers said they were probably too old (read the report) and they did not get to the border. Then Israel provided some names from a bedouin tribe, again nothing with do with Nahalin. As for Kislon, that was also just an Israeli public statement. I am citing a peer-reviewed article by Michael Oren who is a very well respected historian, whose opinion is based on the Israeli archives and other primary documents. It doesn't matter whether you don't like it, this is a reliable source and you are not entitled to delete it. --Zero^talk 10:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that there were many attacks against Jordan is something everyone knows, which is not the point since both Tal and Oren indicate it clearly. Other sources are easy to find. Stop removing it. --Zero^talk 11:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The WSJ article of Oren does not mention the attack on Nahalin and does not disagree with anything in the journal article I am citing. Note how he even mentions the Maale Akrabim attack with Syria and Egypt as examples, where is Jordan? --Zero^talk 11:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about Maale Akrabim, and is not the place for a lengthy discussion about who perpetrated it, and the conflicting opinions about it. Presenting Oren's opinion, and his alone, is not only POV, it is irrelevant to Nahalin. At a minimum, if this is to be NPOV, we need to present the Israeli offical position above, the findings of the Mixed commission, and the opinions of other historians who disagree with Oren - and this would result in a lengthy paragraph analyzing Maaleh Akrabim, which is irrelevant to the article. Feel free to create an article about the ,Maaleh akrabim massacre, with all the above detailed analysis, and we can link to it from here - but to present a single opinion as fact, ignoring all others is POV pushing at its worst. Isarig 15:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one wanting to go on about Maale Akrabim, I am just quoting my source. The relevance is that Nehalim was not attacked due to any direct connection to Maale Akrabim; if you can find a historian to disagree with that statement by all means cite it. Meanwhile, I have a reliable, relevant source, and you are not entitled to delete it just because it annoys you. --[[User:Zero0000|Zero]^talk 15:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please be serious. You're the one who introduced this passage. but if you say it's me who's insisting - fine. I no longer insist, and we can remove the reference to Maaleh Akrabim altogether.

canadianmonkey

On March 28, 1954, at midnight an Israeli raid by Unit 101 surrounded the village from three directions and penetrated inside the village and opened fire with automatic weapons, threw hand-grenades and placed mines at some houses, including the mosque of the village. As a result of this attack, 9 persons--8 men and 1 woman--were killed, and 14 others were injured and taken to hospital. Fire lasted for about one hour and a half, and was returned by the village guards. Then the aggressors withdrew. Mines, grenades and other warlike materials bearing Hebrew markings were found on the spot. The United Nations observers visited the seven damaged houses where explosive charges bad been used to blow the doors open. Some of the doors had bullet holes in them. Empty cartridge shells were found lying in the vicinity of the door. The mosque of the village had its double doors blown up by a large charge of explosives; all window panes were broken.^[1] After the attack on the village had started a Jordanian Legion truck was dispatched which proceeded to Nahhalin village with reinforcements. 3 Arab legionaries were killed when the truck was blown up, also the wounding of the officer in charge and 4 legionaries, this constituted a flagrant breach of article III, paragraph 2, of the General Armistice Agreement.^[1]^[2]^[3] According to David Tal, the raid was the first of Israel's reprisal raids into Jordanian territory that was against a military target. The military target being the Jordanian Legion Truck.^[2] Although this was not the first time Nahhalin village has felt the sting of the night raiders.^[1]

References

^ ^a ^b ^c UN Doc S/3251 of 25 June 1954
^ ^a ^b David Tal, Israel's road to the 1956 war, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1. (Feb., 1996), pp. 59-81.
^ Security Council S/3192, 30 March 1954

canadianmonkey

One thing wrong with the claim of canadianmokey about neutrality...his claim is using Israeli centric sources. That is not neutral that is bias. The Palestinian raiders were already being held by the time of the Israeli raid. The local nature of the national guardsmen is not noted. And the heavy stress on "Tal" version is belied by the buildings demolished, schools, mosque etc....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this was supposed to be an attack against an Arab Legion base....why did the Israeli forces never get to the base and only attacked the village...(the Legionnaires dead were from an ambush on a Legionnaires vehicle traveling between the base and the village)..... Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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[UNS/3251-1] UN Doc S/3251 of 25 June 1954

[tal-2] David Tal, Israel's road to the 1956 war, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1. (Feb., 1996), pp. 59-81.

[3] Security Council S/3192, 30 March 1954

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