Talk:Muhammad and the Bible/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Mahammaddim

Mahammaddim is the actual Biblical Hebrew word found in a passage which some Muslims claim is a reference to Muhammad, as discussed indirectly above in the #Song of Songs 5:16 section in this page, and in more details somewhere on the talk page or talk page archives of the "Song of Songs" article... AnonMoos (talk) 07:13, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. Are there any decent sources that can be used in this article? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:35, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, seek and you shall find. Seems like there's different spellings. Also found this ref [1] which we won't use because WP:SPS. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

AbbasWafadar Again, the page you added [2] says nothing about Muhammad in the Bible. It is not a good source here per WP:SYNTH/WP:OR. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, per "Promote the Gospel of Christ through the learning, study and application of God's word.", biblehub is not a WP:RS. Being online is not the same as should be used on WP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:29, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

See also WP:EW and WP:BRD. So, let's give talkpage discussion a chance. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Fair enough about Mahammadim but why did you revert ALL OF MY EDITS? You literally reverted everything I added, you could've just removed the Mahammadim line?. Also you forgot to mention that I added this source too [3] , which clearly talks about Muhammad in Song of Songs. Can my edits please be re-added. AbbasWafadar (talk) 12:42, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

@AbbasWafadar Thanks for talking. Ok, to start with one part, your rewrite of the Song of Songs 5:16 section.

I don't mind the quote, but are you ok with writing it "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely (mahmadim). This is my beloved, this is my friend, daughters of Jerusalem."

That's the New International Version, I don't have any strong feelings of which translation to use, but it should be reasonably modern I think.

Then, you changed

The Hebrew word mahmadim (desirable, lovely) in Song of Songs 5:16 has been argued to mean Muhammad.

to

The Hebrew word mahammaddim (Hebrew: מַחֲּמַדִּ֑ים‪‬‪‬‎, lit. 'Desirable or Lovely') in Song of Songs 5:16 is argued by some Muslims to mean Muhammad.

There is no reason to change the spelling of mahmadim to one the source doesn't use. The parenthesis is fine by me, I assume you got the hebrew right (maybe there's other spellings there too). "by some Muslims" is unneccessary here since this is in the "Muslim interpretation", and the source doesn't give details. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:39, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Pinging Roscelese if you feel like having an opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:55, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I do admit that my Mahammadim edits might have been unconstructive but what about my other edits. There were only Christian historian thoughts so I added Muslim and Jewish historians thoughts. I added Paraclete in the third paragraph with reliable citations. Why were these edits removed? Can these edits please be re-added. AbbasWafadar (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

@AbbasWafadar I will return to this topic tomorrow. Perhaps others will chime in. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:29, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Xlibris is a self-publisher and no more reliable a source than someone's Facebook post. Are there reliable sources documenting this interpretation? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
@Roscelese Yes, the one I put in the article. The Xlibris one was just for the talkpage, hence "which we won't use because WP:SPS." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Part 2

OK. Your (AbbasWafadar) last article edit [4], reverted by me, changed the lead from

Arguments that prophecies of Muhammad exist in the Bible have formed part of Muslim tradition from the early history of Muhammad's Ummah (Arabic: أُمّة community). A number of Christians throughout history, such as John of Damascus and John Calvin, have interpreted Muhammad as being the Antichrist of the New Testament.

Muslim theologians have argued that a number of specific passages within the biblical text can be specifically identified as references to Muhammad, both in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament and in the Christian New Testament. Several verses in the Quran, as well as several Hadiths, state that Muhammad is described in the Bible. On the other hand, scholars have generally interpreted these verses as referring to the community of Israel or Yahweh's personal soteriological actions regarding the Israelites or members of the faithful community, such as in the cases of Isaiah 42. The apocryphal Gospel of Barnabas, which explicitly mentions Muhammad, is widely recognized by scholars as a fabrication from the Early Modern Age. Some Muslim theologians also claimed the Paraclete (Greek New Testament) as Muhammad, although scholars identify it with the Holy Spirit.

to

Muhammad in the Bible refers to arguments that prophecies of Muhammad exist in the Bible. It has formed part of Muslim tradition from the early history of the Ummah (Arabic: أُمّة, lit. 'Community'). Early Muslim historians, such as Ibn Ishaq, have believed that, due to some prophecies, Muhammad was accepted as a prophet in Medina.^[1] Early Christian historians throughout history, such as John of Damascus, interpreted Muhammad as being the Antichrist of the New Testament. Early Jewish historians, did not regard Muhammad as a prophet, but did view him as a savior for the Arabs.^[2]^[3]^[4]

Muslim theologians have argued that a number of specific passages within the biblical text can be specifically identified as references to Muhammad, both in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament and in the Christian New Testament. Several verses in the Quran, as well as several Hadiths, state that Muhammad is described in the Bible. On the other hand, scholars have generally interpreted these verses as referring to the community of Israel or Yahweh's personal soteriological actions regarding the Israelites or members of the faithful community, such as in the cases of Isaiah 42. The apocryphal Gospel of Barnabas, which explicitly mentions Muhammad, is widely recognized by scholars as a fabrication from the Early Modern Age. Some Muslim theologians also claimed the Paraclete (Greek New Testament) as Muhammad, although scholars identify it with the Holy Spirit.

The word "Mahammaddim" (Hebrew: מַחֲּמַדִּ֑ים‪‬‪‬) is mentioned once in the Bible, which is believed by some Muslim theologians to be a reference to Muhammad.^[5]^[6] Many Muslim writers have maintained that the Paraclete in the Bible is a prophecy about Muhammad.^[7]^[8]

References

^ Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah - The Life of Muhammad Translated by A. Guillaume. October 2002. pp. 197–198. Now God had prepared the way for Islam in that they (the Arabs of Medina) lived side by side with the Jews who were people of the Scripture and Knowledge, while they themselves were polytheists and idolaters... the Jews used to say to them: 'A prophet will be sent soon, his day is at hand.' ... so when they (the Arabs of Medina) heard the Apostle's message they said one to another: 'this is the very Prophet of the Jews'. Thereupon, they accepted his teachings and became Muslims.
^ Norman Roth. Jews, Visigoths, and Muslims in Medieval Spain: Cooperation and Conflict, BRILL, 1994, p. 218.
^ The Bustan al-Ukul, by Nathanael ibn al-Fayyumi, edited and translated by David Levine, Columbia University Oriental Studies Vol. VI, p. 105
^ Gan ha-Sekhalim, ed. Kafih (Jerusalem, 1984), ch. 6.
^ "Song of Solomon 5:16 His mouth is most sweet; he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem". biblehub.com. Retrieved 2021-09-02.
^ Cite error: The named reference :1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Hoyland, Robert G. (1998). Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam. Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam. Vol. 13. The Darwin Press, Inc. p. 499. ISBN 978-1-61813-131-7.
^ Anthony, Sean (2016). "Muḥammad, Menaḥem, and the Paraclete: new light on Ibn Isḥāq's (d. 150/767) Arabic version of John 15: 23–16: 1". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies. 79 (2): 255–278. doi:10.1017/S0041977X16000458.

We dealt with the "Mahammaddim" part above.

IMO your first sentence is ok, pretty much equal, or a little better, to the previous version.

"Early Muslim historians, such as Ibn Ishaq, have believed that, due to some prophecies, Muhammad was accepted as a prophet in Medina.[1]" IMO, as written this seems off topic, and per the text in the WP-article this seems to refer to profecies in the Quran. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but that's how I read it.

"Early Christian historians throughout history, such as John of Damascus, interpreted Muhammad as being the Antichrist of the New Testament." IMO not an improvement. John was earlier, but Calvin and Luther "weightier", since they founded significant Christianity branches of their own. Also they are not early Christians.

"Early Jewish historians, did not regard Muhammad as a prophet, but did view him as a savior for the Arabs.[2][3][4]" I see no support for this in Roth p218[5] (also, "historian" is probably not a good description of anyone mentioned in the current lead). The Bustan Al-ukul I don't get easy access to, so I can't see what Natan'el al-Fayyumi wrote about Muhammad in the Bible. Quote, anyone? Dito Gan ha-Sekhalim.

I'll stop here for now and wait for others comments. Per WP preference (WP:PRIMARY and WP:AGEMATTERS), it's good if we can avoid sourcing the old writer's directly, but context matters. Basically, we want a modern historian to tell us what Ibn Ishaq et al think, rather than try to interpret their words ourselves. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Noting that AbbasWafadar been blocked as a sockpuppet. Oh well, AGF is the law of the land. But a little disheartening. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Gospel of Barnabas, again

Come to think of it, it would be good to have a couple of WP:RS that connects GoB to the article-topic. I read somewhere the idea that it's part of the "uncorrupted/original" Bible, and therefore proves that Muhammad was in the Bible, but I can't find it in a good source atm. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:45, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

[:0-1] Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah - The Life of Muhammad Translated by A. Guillaume. October 2002. pp. 197–198. Now God had prepared the way for Islam in that they (the Arabs of Medina) lived side by side with the Jews who were people of the Scripture and Knowledge, while they themselves were polytheists and idolaters... the Jews used to say to them: 'A prophet will be sent soon, his day is at hand.' ... so when they (the Arabs of Medina) heard the Apostle's message they said one to another: 'this is the very Prophet of the Jews'. Thereupon, they accepted his teachings and became Muslims.

[Roth1994p218-2] Norman Roth. Jews, Visigoths, and Muslims in Medieval Spain: Cooperation and Conflict, BRILL, 1994, p. 218.

[3] The Bustan al-Ukul, by Nathanael ibn al-Fayyumi, edited and translated by David Levine, Columbia University Oriental Studies Vol. VI, p. 105

[4] Gan ha-Sekhalim, ed. Kafih (Jerusalem, 1984), ch. 6.

[5] "Song of Solomon 5:16 His mouth is most sweet; he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem". biblehub.com. Retrieved 2021-09-02.

[:1-6] Cite error: The named reference :1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[7] Hoyland, Robert G. (1998). Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam. Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam. Vol. 13. The Darwin Press, Inc. p. 499. ISBN 978-1-61813-131-7.

[8] Anthony, Sean (2016). "Muḥammad, Menaḥem, and the Paraclete: new light on Ibn Isḥāq's (d. 150/767) Arabic version of John 15: 23–16: 1". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies. 79 (2): 255–278. doi:10.1017/S0041977X16000458.

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