Talk:Muhammad of Ghor

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Muhammad of Ghor article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2: 365 days

Muhammad of Ghor was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (December 23, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Biography: Military / Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility (assessed as Low-importance).

Central Asia Low‑importance

	Asia portal Muhammad of Ghor is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Tibet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang and Central Asian portions of Iran, Pakistan and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.Central AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Central AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Central AsiaCentral Asia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Iran

	Iran portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Afghanistan

	Afghanistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

India: History High‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as High-importance).
	This article was last assessed in May 2012.

Pakistan Mid‑importance

	Pakistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Biography / Middle East / Medieval

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500)

Other talk page banners

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Military history of Ray, Iran was copied or moved into Mu'izz al-Din with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

List of referenced content deleted from this article

User 117.207.185.74 deletes an entire section containing cited content on Assisination ,for unexplained reasons

References

desecrated

The use of the word desecrated in the sentence "After a general massacre of the populace, the Ghurids desecrated the Hindu pilgrim centre of Benaras" seems bit out of place. I do realize that Benaras suffered destruction, but I understood that it was general destruction, looting, etc. The source cited says "In 1194, Muizzuddin returned to India. He crossed the Jamuna with 50,000 cavalry and moved towards Kanauj. A hotly contested battle between Muizzuddin and Jaichandra was fought at Chandawar near Kanauj. We are told that Jaichandra had almost carried the day when he was killed by an arrow, and his army was totally defeated. Muizzuddin now moved on to Banaras which was ravaged, a large number of temples there being destroyed ..." I think that the emphasis on desecration in the Wikipedia text is misplaced. It seems to me more appropriate to say, "Following the battle, the Ghurids took the fort at Asni, where they plundered the royal treasure of the Gahadavalas, and went on to take the pilgrimage city of Benaras, which was looted and a large number of its temples destroyed." The cited source does not mention a "general massacre". The chronology seems to be that the fort at Asni was taken and then Benaras was looted (sacked). (q.v. here and here) I have made this change based on the source in an effort to make the article more GA worthy. --Bejnar (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any obvious issues with your edits, although i beg to differ on the part of wholesale slaughter in Kashi, the same author (Satish Chandra) covered this bit in his different publication as follows..

As usual the contemporary literary works indulge in gross exaggerations. They place Jai Chand's army at 80,000 men in armour, 30,000 horses....... Jai Chand who is known to be a great warrior, suffered a disastrous defeat.
After great slaughter and plunder, the fort of Asni which contained the Gahadavala treasure-house was plundered...

(great slaughter literally means a massacre)

Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals-Delhi Sultanat (1206-1526) - Part One (2006)
(pp:-27) Re Pa©ker&Tra©ker (♀) 02:02, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at a variety of sources "the great slaughter" was of the troops of Jai Chand, not the citizens of towns. --Bejnar (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bejnar: Although I did not go through the rest of the article over the weekend, i.e. beyond the lead, your remarks show that it possibly continues to have neutrality issues that I had identified a year ago. Please see the last three paragraphs of Lion Capital of Ashoka's history section beginning with "Although Buddhism and Buddhist monasticism ..." for a more NPOV description. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Updated Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:23, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that neutrality issues still exist. One of the problems is that modern Indian sources are often not NPOV. --Bejnar (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bejnar: Needless emphasis on Indian sources and further labelling them as POV sources is derogatory, more so in the case where the cited sources are from eminent historians of the modern era like as Sunil Kumar, Satish Chandra, K.A. Nizami, Md. Habib et al..

It's not only disparaging, but is off topic as well given that this article had glaring errors for a number of years like his forged tomb being in Pakistan, wrong birth year, not having any offspring though he had a daughter et al which were sorted out by me apart from creating several decent articles on the subject. Re Pa©ker&Tra©ker (♀) 16:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the other Indian historians mentioned above, but Sunil Kumar was a dear friend. I met him on the basketball courts at the University of Chicago. He was a pretty good player. I have three or four of his books here, somewhere. I have little interest in medieval history, but he was hardly of the POV that I had found in this article when I last examined the neutrality issue. He died unexpectedly a couple of years ago. I owe it to his memory to make sure he has been paraphrased accurately. When I'll get around to it, I don't know. Maybe this coming weekend, maybe next week. But I will. I had forgotten about all the sources I had collected upstairs. The glaring errors described above are errors of fact, not of neutrality. Pinging @TrangaBellam: who I think was also a discussant. I apologize for my fading memory. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 02:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will take a look; didn't know it was being nom-ed for GA. Kumar was a man of many abilities - in his college days, he was a gifted track athlete, too! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Indian campaigns of Muhammad of Ghor#Requested move 11 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Indian campaigns of Muhammad of Ghor#Requested move 11 February 2024 that may be of interest to watchers of this page. Schierbecker (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The leader of khokhars was Ram lal khokhar who was a Jats and also khokhar were jats who assassinated him so please change it

The leader of khokhars was Ram lal khokhar who was a Jats and also khokhar were jats who assassinated him so please change it Samarth099 (talk) 04:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]