Talk:Muhammad of Ghor

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Muhammad of Ghor was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (December 23, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Military history of Ray, Iran was copied or moved into Mu'izz al-Din with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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References

desecrated

The use of the word desecrated in the sentence "After a general massacre of the populace, the Ghurids desecrated the Hindu pilgrim centre of Benaras" seems bit out of place. I do realize that Benaras suffered destruction, but I understood that it was general destruction, looting, etc. The source cited says "In 1194, Muizzuddin returned to India. He crossed the Jamuna with 50,000 cavalry and moved towards Kanauj. A hotly contested battle between Muizzuddin and Jaichandra was fought at Chandawar near Kanauj. We are told that Jaichandra had almost carried the day when he was killed by an arrow, and his army was totally defeated. Muizzuddin now moved on to Banaras which was ravaged, a large number of temples there being destroyed ..." I think that the emphasis on desecration in the Wikipedia text is misplaced. It seems to me more appropriate to say, "Following the battle, the Ghurids took the fort at Asni, where they plundered the royal treasure of the Gahadavalas, and went on to take the pilgrimage city of Benaras, which was looted and a large number of its temples destroyed." The cited source does not mention a "general massacre". The chronology seems to be that the fort at Asni was taken and then Benaras was looted (sacked). (q.v. here and here) I have made this change based on the source in an effort to make the article more GA worthy. --Bejnar (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any obvious issues with your edits, although i beg to differ on the part of wholesale slaughter in Kashi, the same author (Satish Chandra) covered this bit in his different publication as follows..

As usual the contemporary literary works indulge in gross exaggerations. They place Jai Chand's army at 80,000 men in armour, 30,000 horses....... Jai Chand who is known to be a great warrior, suffered a disastrous defeat.
After great slaughter and plunder, the fort of Asni which contained the Gahadavala treasure-house was plundered...

(great slaughter literally means a massacre)

Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals-Delhi Sultanat (1206-1526) - Part One (2006)
(pp:-27) Re Pa©ker&Tra©ker (♀) 02:02, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at a variety of sources "the great slaughter" was of the troops of Jai Chand, not the citizens of towns. --Bejnar (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bejnar: Although I did not go through the rest of the article over the weekend, i.e. beyond the lead, your remarks show that it possibly continues to have neutrality issues that I had identified a year ago. Please see the last three paragraphs of Lion Capital of Ashoka's history section beginning with "Although Buddhism and Buddhist monasticism ..." for a more NPOV description. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Updated Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:23, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that neutrality issues still exist. One of the problems is that modern Indian sources are often not NPOV. --Bejnar (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bejnar: Needless emphasis on Indian sources and further labelling them as POV sources is derogatory, more so in the case where the cited sources are from eminent historians of the modern era like as Sunil Kumar, Satish Chandra, K.A. Nizami, Md. Habib et al..

It's not only disparaging, but is off topic as well given that this article had glaring errors for a number of years like his forged tomb being in Pakistan, wrong birth year, not having any offspring though he had a daughter et al which were sorted out by me apart from creating several decent articles on the subject. Re Pa©ker&Tra©ker (♀) 16:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the other Indian historians mentioned above, but Sunil Kumar was a dear friend. I met him on the basketball courts at the University of Chicago. He was a pretty good player. I have three or four of his books here, somewhere. I have little interest in medieval history, but he was hardly of the POV that I had found in this article when I last examined the neutrality issue. He died unexpectedly a couple of years ago. I owe it to his memory to make sure he has been paraphrased accurately. When I'll get around to it, I don't know. Maybe this coming weekend, maybe next week. But I will. I had forgotten about all the sources I had collected upstairs. The glaring errors described above are errors of fact, not of neutrality. Pinging @TrangaBellam: who I think was also a discussant. I apologize for my fading memory. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 02:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will take a look; didn't know it was being nom-ed for GA. Kumar was a man of many abilities - in his college days, he was a gifted track athlete, too! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Indian campaigns of Muhammad of Ghor#Requested move 11 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Indian campaigns of Muhammad of Ghor#Requested move 11 February 2024 that may be of interest to watchers of this page. Schierbecker (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The leader of khokhars was Ram lal khokhar who was a Jats and also khokhar were jats who assassinated him so please change it

The leader of khokhars was Ram lal khokhar who was a Jats and also khokhar were jats who assassinated him so please change it Samarth099 (talk) 04:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]