Jump to content

Talk:Mr. Wrestling II

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Mr. Wrestling II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:40, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sex offender or not?

[edit]
This RfC concerns whether it's appropriate for a Wikipedia article to describe its subject as a sex offender. This is based, firstly, on a clipping from the Honolulu Advertiser that says he was arrested for sex with a fifteen year old, and secondly, a search of the Hawaiian sex offenders' register that confirms someone by the same name appearing to be him is listed on it. On the basis of the discussion below, the options within closer's discretion are no and no consensus. On Wikipedia, a "no consensus" result means that the status quo ante continues. As of right now the information is not included, so a "no consensus" outcome has exactly the same effect as "no": I don't need to choose between them.
This means that the outcome of this discussion is not to change the article from its current state. I hope this helps—S Marshall T/C 20:57, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently it has come to my attention of a bit of a content dispute, which focuses on whether Mr. Wrestling II was a registered sex offender. The editors involved are all IPv6 anonymous editors, and they've seemed to be getting into an edit war over this (see history).

This is quite a controversial topic, and its sudden addition just after his death does raise some red flags. However, the content is sourced twice, both in a sex offender registry ([1]) and a clipping from the Honolulu Advertiser ([2]) clipped in 2018.

Is the content acceptable to include into the article? dibbydib boop or snoop 08:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have also noticed that the addresses listed below seem to be the ones removing this content, and are almost certainly the same person, however I am assuming this is due to the user's connection changing between edits, as the first and second addresses share the same provider, yet the third and fourth do not. This is not a case of sockpuppetry, and I believe this user was acting in good faith and did not intend to do this.

IP Last edit Provider
2603:9004:800:38CC:F449:3FDF:3B8A:A03A (talk · contribs) 07:03, 11 June 2020 (UTC) Charter Communications
2600:6C5A:47F:F617:BC22:E06E:4D49:7ABD (talk · contribs) 00:33, 11 June 2020 (UTC) Charter Communications
2601:6C0:8001:23E0:6D19:5C19:98E2:5880 (talk · contribs) 00:02, 11 June 2020 (UTC) Comcast Cable Communications, LLC
2600:1005:B15A:AF65:2052:D315:4EB1:E3BF (talk · contribs) 22:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC) Cellco Partnership DBA Verizon Wireless
The Honolulu Advertiser reports the arrest NOT THE CONVICTION of someone with the same name as the subject of this article - it cannot be used as a source to say that the subject is a convicted criminal or registered sex offender. The so called "sex offender registry" link does not appear to me to be a reliable source - we need absolutely cast iron sourcing to add these sort of allegations.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just so everyone knows, here's the state of Hawaii's link to the same information as the 3rd party site: https://sexoffenders.ehawaii.gov/sexoffender/details,A0031098.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.89.3.117 (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That link doesn't indicate whether or not this is actually the subject of the article, or just someone with the same name.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I agree with Nigel Ish that these two sources aren't sufficient to support adding the claim to the article. As Walker just died, the article still falls under WP:BLPRS. I searched and found nothing to support that the John Francis Walker arrested in 1953 is the same John Francis Walker who was the wrestler, except a "today I learned" post on Reddit and an apparent Wikipedia mirror. Schazjmd (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found that link (as someone else already pointed out, it was posted to Reddit's SquaredCircle sub-Reddit 2 years ago or so, which obviously isn't a guarantee of anything, but aside from the clipping, that seems to be the only prominent mention online of the person on the registry possibly being the subject of this article) at a time when people were questioning the credibility of the 3rd party site, so I figured I'd share, as it might help the rest of you get to the bottom of this quicker, one way or the other. (For the record, I'm just someone who came back here to read this entry a day after his passing, stumbled upon what looked like an edit war about some really heavy information, and did some looking of my own to see what the deal was. I had and have no prior or other connection to this conversation.)

Obviously, this also isn't a way to 100% verify (there could absolutely be 2 men with the same fairly common first, middle and last name, and the same year of birth, similar appearance, and connections to Hawaii, particularly pre-statehood Hawaii), but running image searches on "Mr. Wrestling II unmasked", which do yield results, may get you a little closer to a resolution here, as well.

There's also this, from Mike Mooneyham's obituary, which is already cited in this article (https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/former-star-wrestler-charleston-native-johnny-walker-dies-at-85/article_28c0f2ba-ab40-11ea-b7a7-ffb5cde289be.html):

"Walker wasn’t sure how long he lived in Charleston since he was still a baby when his family moved. “My dad was in the Marine Corps, so we bounced around quite a bit,” he said.""

It's entirely possible that public records searches along these lines could get you all closer to confirming or denying the facts, at which point, it'd become a question of the site's guidelines on this, and, hopefully, propriety.

Anyway, you have as much information as I have now, which may not be enough, but hopefully helps. Good luck to you all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.89.3.117 (talk) 18:16, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not in the lead? InedibleHulk We have *NO* reliable sources saying he actually did do it. Putting it anywhere in this article would be a BLP violation. Necromonger...Arbs were wrong, Resysop BHG! 18:34, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Look below, Greg Oliver means this Johnny Walker (and the CJDC webmastered by the Attorney General of Hawaii). InedibleHulk (talk) 22:00, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is Slamwrestling.com really a WP:RS for this? - and that is the only source that is linking the wrestler to the person placed on the Sex offenders register. Also note that we don't have any information on whether the case ever went to court.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:40, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oliver is one of only a few who are heavy into wrestling history and a legit trained journalist (with ethics, standards and all that jazz). As a history buff and Canadian journalist myself, I've seen no red flags from him over the years. Not as familiar with the Government of Hawaii, but it feels authoritative; as it gives a disposition date, I believe this case went through a real court. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This assertion needs more than one high-quality source per WP:REDFLAG. If there is another high-quality source that mentions the connection of the conviction or registration, then it could be inserted in the article. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well it has now been re-inserted using the same sources as before, including a statement that he was convicted. It seems that all the discussion here doesn't count, because once semi-protection was lifted the claims were re-inserted.Nigel Ish (talk) 08:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yep I saw it InedibleHulk don't put that claim back in without reliable sources to back it up. Slamwrestling.net is not considered a reliable source, at best, it has one passing mention on the reliable sources noticeboard and absolutely no consensus exists for it to be considered a reliable source, also, just like Nigel Ish has stated , per WP:REDFLAG, this accusation needs multiple reliable sources to back it up. Necromonger...Arbs were wrong, Resysop BHG! 11:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, there's no indication he's unreliable on Wikipedia, either. I vouch for him, and I'm no liar. He ever lie to you? InedibleHulk (talk) 12:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, it was Calienteramen that re-inserted the claim - but we still need cast iron secondary sources for these sort of claims to go in - not Primary sources which don't positively tie the article subject to the claim or newspaper articles that refer to someone's arrest.Nigel Ish (talk) 12:05, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It was I that added the claim. I wasn't trying to act in bad faith or inflame an already flashpoint issue. However, I do believe the citations I included are sufficiently reliable. I included links to two obituaries from reliable sources as defined by WikiProject Professional Wrestling in Slam Wrestling (a spin off of the Canadian Online Explorer, as noted in the sources list) and the Wrestling Observer (which only references his arrest, and not his conviction). I also included the original newspaper article that identifies the arrest of an 18-year-old John Francis Walker in Honolulu, Hawaii, where Walker was living at the time (per the Wrestling Observer obituary). Finally, the entry in the sex offender database corresponds to John Francis Walker, born 1934, living in Honolulu, Hawaii as of May 2020, the city where we know Walker died a month later. It also includes a 2019 photograph of Walker, who looks very much like the Mr. Wrestling II interview in 2010 here and in 2013 here.Calienteramen (talk) 13:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Who's cast-iron in your opinion? InedibleHulk (talk) 12:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First off, I apologize to InedibleHulk for accusing him of re-adding in the bit about Mr.Wrestling II. I assumed, and I think we all know what happens when we assume!
Anyrate, Calienteramen Slam Wrestling is neither considered reliable or unreliable per WP RSN The Wrestling Observer also is neither claimed as reliable or unreliable over at the RSN board. The original newspaper article doesn't link "John Francis Walker" to the "John Francis Walker" also known as Mr. Wrestling II. The sex offender database also doesn't link "John Francis Walker" to Mr. Wrestling and is considered a primary source, so it couldn't be used.In order to add the claim that Mr. Wrestling really is what you say he is, reliable sources would absolutely be needed.Necromonger...Arbs were wrong, Resysop BHG! 14:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RSN says about itself: "while we attempt to offer a second opinion, and the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not official policy." The failure to include sources on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard does not itself preclude a source from being reliable. It also shouldn't be used to ignore the decisions made by a WikiProject. Both authors of the obituaries - Dave Meltzer and Greg Oliver - are listed on Wikipedia itself as notable authors about professional wrestling. A 1953 article isn't going to include a fictional name that was first created in 1972. Official government websites aren't going to list the fictional names of characters portrayed by people. Since the primary source includes a photograph of the person which is easy to compare against other photographs of that same person, WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD should be invoked here, as should WP:COMMONSENSE.Calienteramen (talk) 15:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Additional contemporaneous newspaper articles regarding the case include ones about the indictment and the not guilty plea, which clearly refer to the case detailed in the previously discussed article.Calienteramen (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with common sense, believe it or not. It's common sense that we should only permit Mr. Wrestling II to be referred to as a sex offender if we have reliable sources that link him to that crime. Right now we have none. His name's common enough to be shared by more than one person, Hawaaii's big enough to have more than one John Francis Walker. So far, there are no resources that reliably link John Francis Walker aka Mr. Wrestling II to a sex offender by the same name. Until we have some, we can't link him ourselves. For the record, I actually think the guy in Hawaaii IS him, but without a reliable source, we can't present it on Wikipedia. Necromonger...Arbs were wrong, Resysop BHG! 18:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Greg Oliver is legit, whether you're aware of him or not. Unlike Adam Martin, James Caldwell and Brian Joyce (already accepted here), he's not mostly just a fan with a website. Unlike Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Bill Apter (also cited here), he didn't get to where he is by shamelessly selling lies to his audience for decades. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I found a recent photo and the photo on the registry. They are close enough to not rule him out. Jerod Lycett (talk) 17:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is the last two paragraphs from the Mr. Wrestling II obituary in the latest Wrestling Observer Newsletter: "The negative is that Johnny Walker without the gimmick was a journeyman wrestler. As far as Hall of Fame voting goes, his gang rape charge at the age of 18 will be problematic to some. The issue wasn’t known during his career. The allegation from July 9, 1953, at Sandy Beach on the south shore of the island of Oahu, where he lived at the time, listed him as one of nine men who were accused of raping a 15-year-old. There was a conviction on his record, in 1955, related to the incident. The conviction was not for forcible rape, but for having sex with a woman under the age of 16. It doesn’t appear he served time since he was in the Navy and then started pro wrestling in 1956. At the time of his death, Walker was still a registered sex offender in the Hawaii data base with a photo of him."Calienteramen (talk) 20:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Source on gang rape

[edit]

http://slamwrestling.net/index.php/2020/06/10/mr-wrestling-ii-johnny-walker-dies/

"It wasn’t all heroic, though. On August 8, 1953, Walker was one of nine suspects arrested in connection to the rape of a 15-year-old girl in Hawaii, at Sandy Beach. Walker was 18 at the time, and worked at a service station in Waikiki. According to the Hawaii Criminal Justice Data Center, Walker’s disposition was July 27, 1955, and for the rest of his life he was a registered sex offender wherever he lived."

Obligal (talk) 07:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]


I think it's paywalled, but DragonKingKarl at F4Wonline/Wrestling Observer (who is an ex-cop IIRC) did a three-part show on the Mr. Wrestling II gang rape conviction. I don't remember the details well enough to summarize them completely, but he was certain based on multiple sources that it was the same John Francis Walker. I went into the show assuming he was guilty of participating in a forcible gang rape, but after listening to Karl's review of contemporaneous articles I felt more open to the idea that it was a case of underage prostitution that the participants were hit with statutory rape charges over - although we have to trust that newspaper coverage at the time wasn't being dismissive of a real rape incident and misreporting it. (Obviously, even if true, the lack of forcible rape doesn't excuse having sex with a minor.) Here is the link to part three, which had most of the best evidence in it as far as I remember: https://www.f4wonline.com/podcasts/dragon-king/dragonking-karl-true-crime-wrestling-stories-case-mr-wrestling-2-pt-3-363526 HistoryFightFan (talk) 07:40, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mr._Wrestling_II&oldid=1209229448"