Talk:Movement for the Self-Determination of Kabylie

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On August 7th 2014 user 69.70.37.106 changed MAK's political position from "Center-left to left-wing" to "Right to extreme right" without giving any reason for such a drastic alteration. In my opinion it is difficult to classify MAK on the left-right spectrum. They are primarily and party of human rights and indigenous self-determination. I challenge anyone to find a reliable source for MAK being a party of the extreme right. In the absence of such evidence I suggest the 'political position' section is removed.

"The Autonomous Kabylie upholds the respect for human rights, regardless of sex, race, language or religion. Accordingly, the Family Code will be repealed, polygamy will no longer have its purpose and personal status is governed by egalitarian civil laws." -- from the constitution of MAK.

Cdh1984 (talk) 09:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Is the MAK a political party?

This article is categorized as a political party but I don't see anything here that suggests it is. Charles Essie (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Bias

The neutrality of this article is questionable, i find it odd to rely on an algerian press website. (Source number [3]) especially in this particular article. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 17:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Could you explain this revert? What makes you think that the source is reliable? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't have to prove the opposite of your baseless assertion. Please don't ping me again. M.Bitton (talk) 21:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

You said that the source is reliable! So you should prove it, otherwise your revert is nothing but a baseless attempt to impose your POV. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Logo officiel du Mouvement pour l'autodétermination de la Kabylie (MAK).png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

RfC : removing unreliabely sourced content.

I suggest removing both the biased source and the content associated with it (this one: Djazairess, an Algerian press website). Although the article covers a self-determination movement that opposes the Algerian government, it seems impractical to depend on a biased Algerian source known for promoting Algerian propaganda, particularly for this topic. Thanks. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

References

• Strong oppose this is nothing more than another attempt at censorship by the OP:

1. First, they falsely claimed that the source is "government press". Then, they claimed that it's unreliable, and now they are trying a different approach (by claiming that it's biased), when in fact, the only biased thing here is the way they formulated their useless RfC.
2. The source is not Djazairess (the news aggregator), it's Ennahar (here's the link to the archived article). The source simply reported a statement of facts (what was said by Idir and reported by others back then, following his resignation from the MAK). Here's also the interview of Idir by another militant (you can hear him confirming what the sources attribute to him from @36m).

There really isn't a lot more that can be said about it or the OP's baseless claims, but if anyone (other than the OP) needs further clarification, please don't hesitate to ping me. M.Bitton (talk) 23:30, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

• Opppose (summoned by bot) - Ennahar appears to be a reliable outlet, with an editorial board, record of factual reporting, and wide circulation. There is no reason to doubt their factual reporting, as evinced by the interview also presented by M. Bitton. This also is not a very well-formed RfC, as it does not provide a dispassionate neutral presentation of the circumstances, does not quote the content in question that is supported by the source, and has no set of wide ranging options. I would suggest a speedy close. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Concerns over article content

The content on the page tells a biased version of events which I have attempted to correct and update twice, only to have someone or some bot revert the changes to the old, incomplete, and biased version just minutes later. Following Wiki protocol, I am raising this as an issue of disruptive editing. There is absolutely no justification for removing edits that correct, add to, and bring up to date to present the facts with relevant and accurate source citations.

The following is accurate and unbiased information about the MAK:

The Movement for the Self-Determination of Kabylie (MAK; Kabyle: Amussu i ufraniman n tmurt n iqbayliyen; French: Mouvement pour l’autodétermination de la Kabylie; Arabic: حركة تقرير مصير منطقة القبائل), officially named the Movement for the Autonomy of Kabylie (Kabyle: Afraniman i Tmurt n Yeqbayliyen; French: Mouvement pour l'autonomie de la Kabylie) before 3 October 2013, is a Kabyle nationalist and separatist political organization seeking autonomy, self-determination rights of the Kabyle people, and ultimately independence of the Kabylie region from Algeria. It was founded by the Kabyle Berberist Ferhat Mehenni, now president of the Provisional Government of Kabylie in exile, after the "Black Spring" disturbances in 2001.

In 2021, the Algerian regime designated MAK as a "terrorist organization" under a new Algerian law known as Article 87 bis.  The US State Department dismissed this designation as "more political than security related."^[1]

The cited 2022 Country Report stated, “in 2022, Algerian authorities targeted the Berber separatist Movement for the Self-Determination of Kabylie (or MAK) and the Islamist movement Rachad, which the government designated as terrorist organizations in 2021.  The United States considered this attention to have been more political than security related, as both groups are highly critical of the government and do not appear to have committed what the United States defines as terrorist acts.  The Algerian government occasionally charged individuals with terrorism-related crimes for activities that appeared to constitute protected expression and peaceful activism.”

The same day Algeria assigned the "terrorism" designation to MAK in 2021, its founder, Mehenni, was arrested by French authorities and held in police custody for several hours as part of an investigation into organised money laundering in relation to sports betting.  No charges were filed.^[2]

In 2011, a close associate of Ferhat Mehenni and a former senior member of the organisation, Idir Djouder, accused the MAK of receiving funds from Morocco (250,000 euros per month) and criticised its management methods. . Idir Djouder accused Mehenni of being a "dictator," claiming that the "government" and the content of meetings were mere formalities, with decisions being made "elsewhere".^[3]

MAK issued a statement denying the claims, which were never substantiated.

In 2021, Algerian authorities accused MAK of ordering the widespread 2021 Algeria wildfires in the region of Kabylia. Five members of MAK were convicted in absentia for involvement in the murder of Djamel Ben Ismail on August 11, 2021. Among the members convicted in absentia was the organization's leader, Ferhat Mehenni.^[4] On August 26, 2021, Algeria issued an international arrest warrant for Ferhat Mehenni Mehenni that has been largely ignored by other nations.^[5]

On September 3, 2021, MAK filed a petition with the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in the Hague accusing Algerian President Abdelmajid Tebboune and a top general of “genocide.”  

On September 23, 2021, MAK filed a similar complaint before the Paris Judicial Court.

On April 20, 2024, citing ongoing political repression and a campaign of genocide by Algeria against the Kabyle people, known as Operation Zero Kabyle, Mehenni proclaimed "the rebirth of the Kabyle state" in front of the UN headquarters in New York.

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Before I edit the page again, as I intend to do, I ask that the parties who reversed my changes in April and in August, 2024, explain what their justification is, if any, for having done so. Absent a valid explanation of the reversal or a valid objection to the facts stated above, the edits above cannot be accused of being "persistently disruptive." To the contrary, the reversions of accurate edits are what is "persistent and disruptive."

AmLaw100Professor (talk) 16:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

One month later, there has been no reply to my statement above challenging anyone to show that the edits I included there are false or unsupported. Therefore, I assume those edits will not be reverted for a third time. Those who do any reverting next time will be the ones who are "persistently disrupting" efforts to make the page more accurate and up to date and less obviously biased in favor of the Algerian government. AmLaw100Professor (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)