Talk:Mothra vs. Godzilla

Untitled

But this was actually a deleted scene in Japan (and not made exclusively for AIP, contrary to legend), and included only in prints outside Japan for international marketing. It was seen briefly in the original Japanese trailer. The reason for its deletion was that Japanese viewers, who were still sensitive after WWII, were supposedly offended by seeing American missiles hit Japanese ground.

Source? Thanos6 05:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

• Still waiting for source, or I'll delete this...Thanos6 03:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

is the plot outline correct? i saw recently a version of this movie which had quite different plot 84.251.128.206 20:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and patience! Armegon (talk) 11:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and patience! Armegon (talk) 11:44, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Article must be written in English

The use of the Japanese terms "tokusatsu kaiju" in the lead presumably appeals to genre afficionados, but it is wikipedia policy for articles to be written in English. the words could simply be rplaced with the English "special effects monster" but I see no problem keeping the Japanese terms so long qas they can be glossed in some way. Any suggestions before I change the wording?

American Version

The American version of the movie calls Infant Island "Mothra Island" for whatever reason. Bad translation, I guess. 207.216.197.154 (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Canadian Release

Added a reference to the fact that the 1964 AIP release included Canada as well as the U.S. (source: myself, since I saw it that year...) 猫に小判 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 猫に小判 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Producer/Writer credits in lead

• OPPOSED: I think it's absolutely unnecessary to add the writers and producers in the lead when readers can easily find them in the infobox but User:MatthewHoobin argues that it is necessary. The lead is suppose to be a brief summary covering key points of the article. Adding the writers/producers credit just bloats the lead further. Not that the lead is completely bloated but where will it end? I found an edit from Matthew Hoobin where he even added the music composers credit to the lead, check here. I understand that these credits were instrumental to the fruition of these films. I get it, but as editors, we need to have a level of consistency and organization in the lead based notability and what's already easily covered in the infobox. Armegon (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support: WP:FILMLEAD allows for writers and producers to be mentioned in the lead: "If any writers or producers are well-known, they can also be identified in the paragraph". Both Shinichi Sekizawa and especially Tomoyuki Tanaka are notable, and both were important in the development of the franchise. Not only would mentioning Sekizawa and Tanaka in the lead make the article more consistent with most other film articles, but I also feel that it's about as redundant as listing the people who starred in the film (after all, the members of the cast are already listed in the infobox and in the Cast section). I also would not describe it as "bloat[ing] the lead further", as the lead sections of film articles should probably aspire to be more than a paragraph or a paragraph-and-a-half long. –Matthew - (talk) 22:10, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Comment: I do concede, in retrospect, that mentioning Akira Ifukube as the composer in the lead for Terror of Mechagodzilla was unnecessary. I did feel that it was somewhat relevant to mention him returning to compose for the final film of the Shōwa era, but I now see that mentioning him in the article's lead was not needed. I say this per WP:FILMLEAD, and since, heck, there's no mention of Bernard Herrmann in the lead of Psycho, nor is there mention of John Williams in the lead of Jaws, etc. –Matthew - (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Huh. Well now I feel like a big idiot. I withdraw my argument, in that case. Armegon (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose for now: While I agree these people are important for the franchise, we wouldn't mention the producer of all the Marvel films in the lead of every Marvel film, even if that person is really important. Also, the article currently does not mention the producer's influence on the film whatsoever and the screenwriter information in the prose is unsourced. I would be for it if you could explain why the screenwriter was important with sourced info, but otherwise, we are stuffing things into the article without giving anyone context to why it is important. Andrzejbanas (talk) 23:52, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Production section review

Please note this is not a review of the articles GA nomination but rather an editor's observation of the titled production section. Looking over the production section of this article, I do find this section a bit underdeveloped in terms of the sub-section son the film's development and writing. There is a lot more information out there that once can place and cite in this article that tells of these aspects of the film's production, so much more work is needed here to expand those. Also there is not a lot of information on the principle photography, just the film's special effects. I suggest taking a good look around and add/expand a "Filming" sub-section. Again this is all observations that I have that will help the eventual GA review move along more smoothly. I also suggest taking a good look at the other sections and see if there is anything you need to fine tune or expand. Anyways hope this helps.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the information on the development and writing sub-sections were the only pieces available for those categories. I own an extensive collection of books and English audio commentaries on the topic of the making behind Godzilla films, and this was the best I could find. I could only find extensive information on the effects, and it makes sense to give that sub-section priority given that it is an effects driven, or rather, a tokusatsu film. Armegon (talk) 20:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

If that is the case I suggest combining the writing and development sections together. The big reason the movie was made was both characters were hugely popular, so perhaps a little background description on the two will suffice cause both the success of Mothra and Godzilla spawned this crossover. If you have not checked Google books I suggest you do so. I always am able to find a treasure trove of information. A big one that I know is the books written by Tom Weaver and Bill Warren. If not I can also do some digging of my own if you want any help.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Of course! I'd appreciate the help. Anything to help it pass GA nom. Armegon (talk) 07:39, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

After doing a little digging I have got some books you can look at on Google Books. I will keep looking into stuff when I have the time but here is a list of book titles:

• Japan's Favorite Mon-star: The Unauthorized Biography of "The Big G" By Steve Ryfle

• The Psychotronic Video Guide To Film By Michael Weldon (review)

• Keep Watching the Skies!: American Science Fiction Movies of the Fifties ... By Bill Warren

• Apocalypse Then: American and Japanese Atomic Cinema, 1951-1967 By Mike Bogue

• American International Pictures: A Comprehensive Filmography By Rob Craig

• The Toho Studios Story: A History and Complete Filmography By Stuart Galbraith, IV Paleface Jack (talk) 18:07, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate it. I've culled some info from Ryfle's "Japan's Favorite Mon-star" and Ryfle's audio commentary, which culls info from the same book too. A chunk of the source I used was Ryfle and Godziszewski's 2017 biography on Ishiro Honda and his works, but I'll take a look at the rest, just in case. Thanks a bunch! Armegon (talk) 19:56, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

No problem brother. I am gonna try to do as little edits as possible cause its your show. as far as production section goes you can always give like a sort of background like why the film was made if you get some reliable sources. I will try and work on a casting sub-section when I have time.--19:06, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

That would be so great! Thanks again! Armegon (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Just FYI I would do a little rewriting of the production section of the article. The opening currently reads "Before production began, Honda discussed with his cast that with the competition television has been posing for the movies". this can be redone to have "Development of Mothra vs. Godzilla began in (year development began), inspiration for the film came from the inspired success of Honda's previous efforts Mothra and Godzilla" this can be reworked to your style and liking cause the current opening to that section is a little abrupt. I will try and do some cast info today.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, the whole purpose of that opening is Honda's quote regarding Toho's intention's with the target audience. We can probably rewrite it as, "Prior to production, Honda discussed Toho's intentions with the cast due to the then rising success of television, stating..." and then we segues into the quote. Armegon (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

That sounds better, I would transfer the info you have in the lead into the respective sections. Info such as the success of King Kong vs. Godzilla sounds like something you should add to the production section in the beginning paragraph.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:37, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mothra vs. Godzilla/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ffranc (talk · contribs) 14:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Happy to take this on. I'll post a full review tomorrow if nothing unexpected happens. Ffranc (talk) 14:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

• The lead section is currently not written as a summary of the article. Several statements only appear there, especiallly when it comes to the film's place in the Godzilla franchise, and several important sections have no info at all summarised in the lead.

Which important sections you feel are missing? Armegon (talk) 18:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm mainly thinking of Themes, Special effects and Critical response.

• In what way does Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster follow Mothra vs. Godzilla? Does it pick up where the story ended or is it just the next Godzilla film? There are several later films that feature both Godzilla and Mothra, which could be worth mentioning (without listing them all).

It's both a direct sequel to the film (Ghidorah makes references to events in this film) and it is also the next film. Armegon (talk) 18:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

If there are sources for this, it would be good to have it in the article body.

A source has been added to the lead a while back. Additionally, Mothra vs. Godzilla and Ghidorah are part of the Showa era, a single series consisting of 15 films (1, 2). So it's worth noting that the film was followed by the next Godzilla film. Considering the franchise consists of 35 films and many of them belong to their own era (Heisei, Millennium, Reiwa, MonsterVerse). Armegon (talk) 19:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

• The revenues only appear in a note attached to the infobox. They belong in the article body together with the ticket numbers.
• The plot section would benefit from a little bit more detail. It's currently 367 words long, whereas WP:FILMPLOT recommends 400-700 words for feature films.
• The Shobijin escape and meet with Sakai, Nakanishi and Miura. They explain that the egg belongs to Mothra. It's unclear who "they" are here.
• Basic descriptions of Godzilla and Mothra would be helpful at their first appearances in the plot.
• When Honda first is mentioned in Themes, he should be introduced as the film's director and with his full name. Given the comparison between Godzilla and Mothra, it would also be helpful to mention that he did the original Godzilla film.
• The article relies heavily on quotations and most of them would be better off in paraphrase. Unless the statement itself is discussed in the article, a quotation is mainly useful if it works as illustration, by giving insight into an attitude or a way of reasoning. Many quotations here just deliver normal info about the production.
• For the quotations that are left, make sure there is always a citation to the source right after the sentence that contains the quotation.
• I'm not convinced the Crew list is a good idea. The key people from it are mentioned in prose as well, and crew members not worth bringing up in prose are probably not central enough to be mentioned in an article like this. It's database info rather than encyclopedic info.

WP:PERSONNEL gives precedent to include a crew list, and since it is an effects-driven film, I felt it was appropriate to add a small crew list. Articles like Edge of Tomorrow and Interstellar (where I got the idea from) lists film crew credits in their body and both passed GA nominations with the crew credits retained. I added film crews to Godzilla, Godzilla, King of the Monsters!, and Godzilla Raids Again and all three passed GA nominations with the crews retained as well. The crews for effects-driven films where such a crew is essential is notable to note. Armegon (talk) 19:08, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Edge of Tomorrow and Interstellar don't go as deep into the credits as this article does. They list people who are in the infobox plus two or three additional names, all of whom are also mentioned in the prose, so it's clear why they're relevant. The lists still come off as unnecessary but there is a good argument for the information. In this article we have several people who only appear in the list, with no specifics of what they did, and presumably they just followed what the director and special effects director wanted.

• Mention what The Peanuts were and what they were hired to do. Right now it could be read as if they only did promotion for the film, or did the soundtrack.
• Explain what Rolisicans are when they're first mentioned.
• Same as with Honda above, Sekizawa is first introduced in the prose without any explanation of what his role was and without his full name.
• Is there no info available about where and when the film was shot? Or anything else about the filming, other than the special effects and the US-exclusive footage.

No. At least not in the English books and commentaries I own. More than likely, the Japanese books have info like this but I don't speak/read Japanese, nor have direct access to such expensive books. Armegon (talk) 19:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

• Are the Fairies the same as the Shobijin? This needs to be more clear.
• The plural of larva is larvae.
• Make sure the grammar adds up when you put a quotation in a sentence. For example, Variety commented that the film was a "Japanese sci-fi long on special effects but lacks appeal for general trade" doesn't fully work. Some of this can be solved by simply having fewer quotations, as mentioned above.
• In the reception section, mention when the comments by Ryfle, Godziszewski and Maltin are from, to make it clear that they are looking back at an older film.
• The home media section has too many sentences that begin with "In [year]". Many of them can combined into the same sentences, especially the older releases where the only info is a year, distributor and format. Some of them can probably be removed; it's mainly relevant when the film first became available and what the major releases have been. And there's no real need to have subsections for Japan and the US/Canada, since there are only three short paragraphs in total.
• Where does the English-language title Mothra vs. Godzilla come from (as opposed to Mosura tai Gojira)? Most DVDs seem to use this title but some use the US theatrical title. Is there a distinction here, like the US edit is called Godzilla vs. the Thing, or is it more diffuse? The lead section seems to imply this but it could be more clear.

Mothra vs. Godzilla is Toho's international English title for the Japanese version and this title is reflected in all English sources referencing the film. The American version was initially released as Godzilla vs. The Thing but was changed to Godzilla vs. Mothra when it was released on VHS and DVD (the 2002 DVD) in North America. The 2007 DVD restores the original US title Godzilla vs. The Thing for the US version. I made efforts to clarify that in the Home media section. But the original Japanese version has been released on DVD under the title Mothra vs. Godzilla (1), and recently on North American Blu-ray and HBO Max under the same title (2, 3).

I'll take a few more looks and might add some more comments, but that's it for now. There's some need for copy editing throughout the article but nothing too serious. I would recommend that you look over the prose in general but I'll probably go through it myself and fix the issues I find once you've addressed the other concerns. The article overall looks good and I'm sure it will pass without much trouble, like your previous Godzilla articles did. Ffranc (talk) 10:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ffranc: I added the changes, tho I may need a bit more time on the plot. I may need to rewatch the film to add more details. Armegon (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

No problem. Take the time you need. Ffranc (talk) 11:55, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ffranc: I have expanded on the plot summary, and have added many of the GA recommended revisions. Armegon (talk) 17:53, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Armegon: Nice work, the level of detail in the plot is excellent now. The article is close to passing as GA, but there are some things that still need to be done.

• The plot still doesn't introduce Godzilla and Mothra properly. Readers who aren't already familiar with the characters won't know what they are. Just add some short descriptions, close to the ones in their respective articles, like "enormous reptilian monster", "colossal imago" or similar. Something brief that isn't just a name.
• It remains unclear that The Peanuts are the actresses who portray the Shobijin. The connection is never made between the actresses in the cast list and the band mentioned in the production section.

The additions to the lead section are good, although it still needs work to comply with MOS:LEAD.

• Everything in the lead should be a summary of something that is found and supported by sources in the article body. The current version still has info that only appears in the lead.
• If you are going to have quotations in the lead, they need to have inline citations there as well as in the article body. Although I really think it would be better if you skipped as many quotations as possible and just summarized the points instead.

Like I said, it's close to GA, but some things go against WP:MOS or remain unclear to those who might read the article with little prior knowledge of the franchise and characters. Ffranc (talk) 14:01, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ffranc: I added the new suggestions. Armegon (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I began to copy edit the article. Haven't finished yet, but feel free to revert anything I may have misunderstood or you don't think was an improvement. I added a couple of citation needed tags for quotations where I wasn't completely sure which source they're from. Ffranc (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster was still only mentioned in the lead section. I moved it to a new section called Legacy, which might not be an optimal title and there's currently nothing else there, so it's not really motivated to have separate section for it yet. But I do still think there should be something in the article about the other films that feature both Mothra and Godzilla. First something along the lines of what you wrote here about how Ghidorah references events in Mothra vs. Godzilla, and something about later films that feature both characters. The book Japan's Green Monsters: Environmental Commentary in Kaiju Cinema for example has some comparisons between the 1964 film and Godzilla vs. Mothra (1992) here and talks about Mothra's appearances in Godzilla films from the 2000s here. There doesn't need to be any in-depth coverage of this, but I do think the article should address that the two title characters have continued to be teamed up in later films. Ffranc (talk) 14:17, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
• There is no explanation what the Champion Festival cut is. I've added a clarification needed tag. Ffranc (talk) 14:52, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Looking at the source it appears to be the version that was released in 1970, which is slightly shorter than the original cut. This info would be good to have in the release section when the 1970 release is first mentioned. This is the only real issue left in the article, add this and I'll close the review as a pass. Ffranc (talk) 13:13, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ffranc: I expanded on the Champion cut in the Theatrical subsection. Armegon (talk) 21:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Excellent work, Armegon, and sorry for the bickering about some points. Everything important has been addressed and the article fulfills the GA criteria. The prose reads well and the article follows the manual of style. The sources are good enough, everything is cited properly and I've found no copyright issues. The main info and discourses that can be found in sources are addressed. I do think the article goes into unnecessary detail with the crew list, but it's not important, and otherwise the focus is fine. Language is neutral and the critical response section covers how the reception has varied and evolved. There are no ongoing edit wars. The only image is the poster which has the proper non-free media use rationale. The article could be improved by having some free images of the cast and crew, but this is not necessary. Nothing more to add, the article passes. Ffranc (talk) 11:26, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Extraneous information on crew

Per my previous edit on another Godzilla page. I'm applying the rules Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not which states " does not aim to contain all data or expression found elsewhere.". In short, these extra cast members lack context and WP:FILMPRODUCTION, which states that we attempt "to maintain a production standpoint, referring to public announcements only when these were particularly noteworthy or revealing about the production process." What information is being gleamed here from these extra details in crew? They have no Wikipedia articles, and it doesn't encourage an understanding of what they are doing and comes off as trivial. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Is it truly necessary to bring this dispute to every single Godzilla article talk page? You've already brought up the dispute at the talk page for Ghidorah. We should establish a general consensus there for all Godzilla articles retaining crew lists. Armegon (talk) 17:29, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I feel weird discussing it on only one film article when it should probably be discussed at WP:FILM's talk page instead, but either way. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2022 (UTC)