Talk:Moses Fleetwood Walker

Moses Fleetwood Walker has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 19, 2017	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 2, 2017.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Moses Fleetwood Walker was the first openly black athlete to play in Major League Baseball?

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 1, 2018, and May 1, 2022.

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untitled

There's a line that says "For the season, he had a .263 BA, which was top three in the league," but it should say 'team' not 'league.' The top 10 players in the league all hit .300 or better; you can check baseball reference for the 1884 AA season. I'm apologizing in advance for not being able to put this comment in the proper place. 165.225.32.114 (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Four years later, and I noticed the same thing. I’ve updated it. Just saw this comment and thought I’d reply. 2601:87:4002:5C0:E55B:ED48:8A86:C5D7 (talk) 02:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edits by 24.196.83.46

Walker has traditionally been credited as the first African-American major league player. Recent research by the Society for American Baseball Research indicates William Edward White, who played one game for the Providence Grays in 1879, was the son of a white former slave-holder and his mulatto mistress.

SABR did not indicate White 'was the son of a white former slave-holder and his mulatto mistress.'

They indicated he may have been the first African-American major league player, as the previous version indicated.

I am reverting that change. Econrad 1 July 2005 05:22 (UTC)

From the Providence Journal 2/15/2004 (free registration required):

"The mystery of White's background and life goes back to a plantation in rural Georgia. He was the son of a white plantation owner, who was also a captain in the Confederate Army, and his mulatto servant."

OK, to be more precise: The anonymous user removed all references to the point that White may have been the first professional black baseball player. Very misleading. Econrad 3 July 2005 13:12 (UTC)

Looking at other changes, the anonymous user also deleted the 'law school' reference from the section that read 'He then attended the University of Michigan law school'

Why?

I am reverting the entire edit.

Econrad 1 July 2005 05:33 (UTC)

Walker has traditionally been credited as the first African-American major league player? Nonsense. Walker has been ignored. The baseball universe parrots Bud Selig's hacks in the PR Department in claiming Jackie Robinson was first. Traditionally the world has run from Walker like he was a pariah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.245.254 (talk) 16:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

International League as a major league in the 1880s

Another edit by the anonymous user:

24.196.83.46 (→Baseball Career - International League was not a major league. It was the top minor league in the country, but it was not a major league. The two 1880s major leagues were the AA and the NL)

Here's the source:

"After playing two seasons in minor league baseball, Walker resurfaced in the majors playing for Newark of the International League in 1887. That season, he and star pitcher George Stovey formed the first black battery in organized baseball."

Source: http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/article_0512.shtml

I'm not saying that's gospel, do you have a source indicating otherwise?

I found a counter point:

"When the International League was inaugurated in 1887, Walker and seven other African Americans including Fowler and Grant were part of the circuit. This league was (and is) one notch below the majors (AAA)." Source: http://www.dickiethon.com/omnibus/negro_part1.htm Econrad 3 July 2005 13:38 (UTC)

The blackathlete.net site is incorrect. The International league was often considered the third best league in the country one notch below the two majors. Any baseball encyclopedia will confirm the the American Association and the National League were the two major leagues in 1887.

See for example these two baseball reference sites and their list of major leagues by year:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/

and

http://baseball-almanac.com/yearmenu.shtml

Properly, these reference sites make no mention of the International League as a major league.

William Edward White

A little more information on W.E. White. The Providence Journal article mentions W.E. White's race as being listed as "white" in the 1900 and 1910 census. It does not mention the 1880 census. However, doing a search through http://www.familysearch.org in the 1880 U.S. census for William E. White in Rhode Island brings up: William E. White in his 1880 boarding house in Providence also listed as "white." Unfortunately, there seems to be no way to link directly to this census result on familysearch.org (gregor197)

This would be easier to talk about if Mr. White's last name was not the same as the racial category! :)

I've been wrestling with how much info to include on White, and whether to create a page for him, and include it there. The original section I wrote just said White 'may' have been the first.

I added a 'Baseball History' section to frame the William Edward White content on Fleet's page; I'm not sure if it should be moved to a new page for White. Econrad 3 July 2005 20:52 (UTC)

A separate W.E. White page would be a good thing, but I still think it's good to leave information about the controversy here, too, since it is pertinent to Walker's history. (gregor197)

FYI: you can date and sign your name by typing 4 tildes ('~') in a row. Econrad 3 July 2005 21:47 (UTC)

Good addition of the baseball history separator.... I was thinking about separating that section, too!

Abisai here: I was wondering if the entire section titled baseball history was better suited as a separate article, one addressing the White vs. Walker as first discussion separately, or even one just to address White individually. Also, I was considering putting something to distinguish Mr. Walker as the first everday player, since Mr. White played but a single game. I feel inadequately aware of the facts of the matter and would defer to others, but thought this was a point worthy of mentioning in the article.

Agreed. I'd like a short mention of the issue in this article (as it was originally) with a wikilink to the more detailed info, whether on a William Edward White page, or on a page dedicated to the issue, like 'First African-American Major-Leage Baseball Player', or similar. If anyone has thoughts on the issue (or the title if we go with a separate article), please add your $.02. He yeets the baseball back to the pictcher Also sub to NCHU Mj on youtube.

NPOV becomes challenging (for me anyways), as White played one game as a sub, and, as the Toledo Blade explains, "One of the main reasons why Mr. White probably didn't come to light until last year was, until then, no one knew that he was African-American."[1]. My POV says Fleet deserves credit for playing time and for suffering due to racism, but I'm trying to remain NPOV.Econrad 6 July 2005 01:12 (UTC)

Fleet in College

Walker initially enrolled at Oberlin in 1878, but that school did not field a varsity baseball team for competition with outside opponents until 1881 (See Zang: pages 20-22). Walker had been a frequent competitor in intramural competitions before the formation of the varsity.

Walker then transferred to the University of Michigan for the 1881-82 school year. He played varsity baseball in 1882. (See Zang: pages 22-23 and 29). Technically speaking, colleges did not award varsity letters until the turn of the century, so he didn't actually win any letters, per se.

In 1883, of course, Walker turned professional for the Toledo Blue Stockings, so he only played one year on the varsity at Michigan.

Weldy Walker followed in his brother's footsteps and also transferred to Michigan - where he played varsity baseball in 1883 and 1884. (See Zang: page 32 and "A Fleeting Ambition" http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1999/apr/04-20-99/sports/sports9.html]

US Gov source that says Fleet Walker won two varsity letters: [2]

Econrad 4 July 2005 00:26 (UTC)

The Honorable Douglas Applegate and his staff did the best that they could for this resolution, but there was not as much information readily available about Fleet Walker in 1990 as there is now, and the two varsity letters assertion is incorrect. The time table itself rules this out. He played for Oberlin in the spring of 1881 and Toledo in the spring of 1883. In between he played at Michigan in the spring of 1882.

Thanks Econrad

I found a small item about this player and found it interesting enough to begin a little stub about it here. It is very interesting for me to read the updates and further deliberation provided, especially by Econrad. Thanks for your work here.

Thanks for the kind words!Econrad 6 July 2005 01:12 (UTC)

[Sick] [sic]

An anonymous editor had changed the word [sic] used in a quotation to [sick]. Not only is this an incorrect spelling, but the quotation didn't even have an error in it. The quotation said, "It was announced on the ground ..." with "ground" supposedly being an error, but "ground" was a valid term to refer to a baseball field, certainly in the 19th century even if it seems antiquated today. --Metropolitan90 23:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Syracuse?

Fleet Walker was still in college in 1879, and this link [3] shows that he was not on the 1879 club, or if he was, it certainly wasn't under his real name. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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"openly black"

The phrase "openly black" will sound odd to many non-US readers. Here in the UK, "black" might refer to skin colour, or to evident African ancestry. Ok, I know of the absurd "one drop" rule, but many non-US readers won't, and I wonder if it needs explaining. Maproom (talk) 10:54, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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