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Found it! Sub-Saharan Africans were part of the Moorish population

I was well aware of this but just found the documentary where there was a Paleopathology on Denia Spain. Time Team based on this we can trace the actual papers of the archaeologist in the doc. It is important because a lot of dispute occurred because Van Sertima was considered Pseudo-History. --Inayity (talk) 17:59, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Ivan van Sertima is pseudohistory. It's a pretty much universal consensus among non-fringe academics. Any of his assertions should be used with extreme care, if at all, in the article. An episode of a documentary doesn't really legitimize his work; it's still pseudo history, regardless of whether its in a documentary or not. Rwenonah (talk) 21:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I am actually not sure what you are responding to because nothing you have wrote is relevant to what I wrote.--Inayity (talk) 05:53, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Unless I misunderstood your initial post, you were trying to assert that Sub-Saharan Africans were part of the Moorish population, via a work of Van Sertima's, which you said had been legitimized by a Time Team documentary. Frankly, it's difficult to understand your initial post. Where does paleopathology come into this? If you are not using Van Sertima as a source, ignore everything I said. Rwenonah (talk) 12:25, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I think what i wrote is clear enough for you to re-read and get. So I will take your advise and ignore everything you said.--Inayity (talk) 12:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Uh, no. My advice is this; don't use Van Sertima as a source. He is a pseudohistorian who advocates Afrocentric points of view. If you're not planning on using Van Sertima, then ignore everything I said. Rwenonah (talk) 12:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I too find your post hard to follow. The second sentence does not seem to parse. I think you are saying that there is independent evidence that there were some sub-Saharan Africans among the people labelled "Moors" in Spain. Is that it? I can't watch the Youtube link from my location (UK). Paul B (talk) 12:59, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a continuation of a debate that went on earlier, we can trace the actual papers of the archaeologist in the doc And I think there was a reason I included the video b/c the video kind of explains that, without watching the video or the previous discussion, then yeah.--Inayity (talk) 14:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a reason we don't generally use videos as sources. How about you just explain it for the benefit of those, like us, who are unable to view it? It's generally good, if there is a misunderstanding, to explain your position clearly. Frankly, your explanation would have to be pretty good to convince me to let van Sertima be used as a source. Rwenonah (talk) 14:18, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reason you rather keep talking about Van Sertima when it has nothing to do with the reason I posted the video. Also I do not have to explain anything when on this very talk page is about 20 pages of discussion about this issue and why my thing is titled "I found it!" If you cannot see the video then say so like Paul B did from the get go. --Inayity (talk) 16:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I've replaced your copyvio link with a link to Channel4. I'm not going to watch 50 minutes of video hoping I'll find what you are referring to - exactly what does it discuss besides Dania in the 11th century? How many minutes in the video on the Channel 4 site? We still need something published however and probably something discussed in other sources. Dougweller (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

time code.33:00 *about there* But the scholars unearthed the bodies of Muslim burial sites and did "racial" test on the skulls and conclude that the community (AS Ivan Sertima and many others have correctly asserted) that Muslim Spain was made up of the races cited in this article already. If you have read the prior debate and the issues of sources, then this is related to that discussion with Shwanthe God and I think Pinkbeast. Some have issues with Africans in world history and the ref to Africans was being deleted. Also maybe some are interested in the dig and did not mind watching the entire excavation. As i stated in my original statement we maybe able to use the video to trace their subsequent work if we needed further sources on the racial composition of people classified as Moors.--Inayity (talk) 16:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Van Sertima is, if I may be frank, fringe, often called Afrocentric and generally asserts questionable ideas. To pick one, that the Olmec were the result of African colonists who founded their culture (an assertion that, in addition to being categorically rejected by mainstream archaeology and anthropology, has been called racist). Any of his assertions should be used with extreme caution. The reason I keep mentioning him is because you seemingly said (as mentioned earlier, your original post is unclear) that the video legitimized his work and proved it wasn't pseudo history. It is. I have no objection if mainstream scholars supporting the idea can be found. Rwenonah (talk) 19:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Van Sertima is certainly deeply unreliable. We should not typically be using him as a source. Of course that does not mean everything he says is wrong. Many specific statements about history written in Mein Kampf or The Myth of the Twentieth Century are accurate, but that does not mean we should use those books as sources! I have no doubt that there were "negroid" or "black" persons among the Moorish population of Spain. The fact that Sertima is a fringe author does not invalidate that claim, but we should not be using him to source it. Paul B (talk) 21:22, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Beyond doubt. I would like more references to African presence in Moorish Spain based upon finding out the names and papers associated with the people in this video. For those new to this talk page, I refuse to be drawn into an offtopic of Rwenonahm choosing, this thread is about what I already stated, not Olmec, not Afrocentrics, not a forum. B/c this is now the only comment you keep making after you were told in technicolor why he was mention and given a link to a prior discussion STILL you go on. Its your first time on this talk page, try reading the previous threads. --Inayity (talk) 00:01, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

From the beginning, you have never explicitly stated what edits you planned to make, what you felt the video signified, or how it legitimized van Sertima's work, as you mentioned in your initial comment. I have no desire to discuss Olmecs or anything else with you; indeed, you seem to be avoiding explaining the above. You've instead consistently recommended that anyone interested in finding out what you meant should either read megabytes of discussion or watch 50 minutes of video. Having read (some) of the discussion, I feel that you're reacting to my comments as an extension of the earlier dispute, rather than what they are; an attempt to keep a fringe source from begin used in the article. Again, if any edits to the article on the basis of van Sertima's work are to be made, they should be backed up by mainstream scholars. If such scholars could be found, I would fully support such edits. Rwenonah (talk) 22:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Inayity appears to be referring to a scene towards the end of the film (41.00 mins if you are watching via the C4 website) in which skulls dug up from a Moorish cemetery are examined. The expert identifies one as a "Negroid" skull and another as a "Caucasoid" skull, explaining the differences. There is then a discussion about what this implies about origins of the local Muslim population, and a drawing is shown of how the two Moors might have looked when alive. Paul B (talk) 12:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I think Inayity is frustrated here because they think they have found a RS that happens to back up something Van Sertima wrote, and all they get is a chorus of "Van Sertima is not a RS". Inayity knows that, that's why they are pleased to find a source that isn't Van Sertima! Pinkbeast (talk) 10:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

If so, all Inayity need do is say so, which they have not. The original post implies van Sertima is the RS and that the video proves this to be so, and they have not yet said otherwise. Rwenonah (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

U are special, the original post says no such thing, stop trying to flip it. I gave you the link to the previous discussion which is your duty to read! U clearly did not. Even after correcting your assumption you would not stop. Van Sertima is a Pseudo-historian or his view that Africans were in the Moorish pop is Pseudo-historical? had u read previous discussion you would know which one was being discussed. --Inayity (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Look this discussion is getting silly. Inayity's first post was rather gnomic, so Rwenonah's initial responses were perfectly understandable, but now it's just getting into a pointless tit for tat blame game. It's pretty clear now what Inayity was drawing attention to and why he used the term "paleopathology". Yes, it strictly does not apply the description of race categories, but we know what he meant. This is all about finding reliable sources for the statement that a proportion of the Moorish/Muslim population in Spain were 'black' or negroid. The Time Team documentary in itself is not an ideal source, though it might scrape by, but the research it presents surely is, if it has been published. Paul B (talk) 21:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Well it has to be published because no one would fund such a dig and then not document it, the issue is just locating it, and I wanted to (b4 being side tracked) start by grabbing the names (if possible) from the video.--Inayity (talk) 21:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I have to say I am mystified by the above dispute. My understanding is that a sub-Saharan element in the population of al-Andalus derived from the trade and other cultural connections between sub-Saharan Africa and the Maghreb. Slave traffic, both in the literal sense and in the form of 'slave soldiers' similar to the Mamluq of Egypt and Janissaries in Ottoman service, emphasised that geographical connection.

The use of the term 'Moor'in relation to the Muslim presence in the Peninsula seems have gained increased currency with the intervention by the Moroccan Almoravids in Iberian affairs following the fall of the Ummayad Caliphate in the early C11th and the subsequent fitna. The Almoravids were Sanhaja Berbers in origin but the presence of black African soldiery in Almoravid armies and their increased use by the Almohads who displanted them, led to the association of the term 'Moorish'(Castilian: moro; Latin: mauri) with people of sub-Saharan African aspect. That association gave an ambiguity to the term in English which has lasted through Shakespeare, and it would seem, to the present, viz. heraldic and MSS images of the high Middle ages. It's worth noting, however, that images of both 'Moors' and 'Saracens' regularly depicted a dark-skinned man with wooly hair, evidently as a conflated shorthand image of the exotic and menacing 'other' (viz. Morris Dancers in black face, but that's another story).

Is there any real controversy about this?

Bearing in mind that the most common term in English and Latin was 'Saracen,' it would be intersting to know when the term 'Moor' first emerged in English- which usage obviously lies at the root of this article. Moro in Castilian (Latin: Mauri) was established early. I would have to check just when.

In Spain today, amongst older people at least, moro has particular resonance with the Civil War when Moroccan troops in Franco's army were associated with atrocities in former Republican areas that they occupied and a grim, racist mythology was embraced by both sides. It is still used despectively in reference to natives of Morocco today and seems to carry the weight of a term like 'darky' (the most acceptable equivalent I can think of). Use in reference to the historic Muslim presence in the Peninsula is discouraged, with 'Musulman' or 'Arabe' the preferred term.

JF42 (talk) 14:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

THIS IS NOT HOW THE MOORS LOOKED!

Pages like this is the reason why I simply refuse not to donate to wikipedia's (semi-racist) platform. The Moors looked NOTHING like these pictures. These pictures are a part of a revisionist historical attempt to bleach out the first inhabitants and builders of civilization much like the attempts to make the original peoples of Egypt, something other than who they truly are.

The Moors were a dark-skinned woolly haired people, falsely called "black" today. I simply cannot believe that literary racism still exists today. There are SO MANY REFERENCES and SOURCES that I can post up based on contemporaneous accounts, but for what? It is not like the pictures will be changed. But do know this, over this year, that will be DRASTIC changes made to this page from well sourced works. Unbelievable...

I suggest proposing drastic changes on the talk page first. Pinkbeast (talk) 19:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:ALSO

See also is a part of wikipedia linking for related topics. How they are related is not based on anyone's POV. So if the Moorish Science Temple of America is a cult, that fact cannot disqualify them as a see also, when Moorish temple make direct connections to this topic of Moors. True of false? Well I can argue that for Hebrews vs Modern Jews -- If we have a problem with religious claims as invalid. But per RS there is a connection and that is all that matters. The Moorish Temple is connected to this topic, and that is a real group, they claim Moorish ancestry and "religion" and culture that qualifies as a See Also. Makes no difference if that might conflict with someone's person beliefs. And many RS state the connection, Nance, Susan. (2002) "Mystery of the Moorish Science Temple: Southern Blacks and American Alternative Spirituality in 1920s Chicago", Religion and American Culture 12, no. 2 (Summer): 123–166, accessed 29 Aug 2009. --Inayity (talk) 07:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

It is inaccurate to include the Moorish Science Temple of America in the See Also section as it asserts that there is somehow a link between the cult and the historic Muslim peoples, which could confuse readers with little knowledge on the subject. You insist that there is a "connection" (with no sources to support your claim) and that the issue was discussed on the talk page already; the only mention of the Moorish Science Temple of America on the talk page was here. Ariel ^✡ 07:32, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

On Wikipedia we go by RS, do you have a problem with Nance, Susan. (2002). If you have a challenge to the connection (religious or otherwise) then you have to do so via RS. As I stated Hebrew people and Modern Jews also have no connection historically. But RS say there is, and that is all that matters.--Inayity (talk) 07:35, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

You are straying off topic with your anti-Semitic and invalid argument. Where does it precisely state that there is a proven connection between the cult and the medieval peoples? Ariel ^✡ 07:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh Shut up with that nonsense of Anti-Semitism. Its so stale to be a joke. BTW Jewish Almanac (1980) says so. U are free to insult and write-off African American religious beliefs but scream foul now? Deal with the issue at hand, and I use it to make the case of religious links are valid. If people have a religious connection (true or false), it is valid per RS. Not because you do not like it!!!!! We edit by RS, not who we think are cults. And cults are just someone's POV. Read the Book, Religious connection, ancestral claim-- everyone is entitled to do it. --Inayity (talk) 07:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Again you are straying off topic, and acting uncivil might I add. I will not take the bait and engage in your anti-Semitic argument. Ariel ^✡ 07:57, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

You are violating WP:CIVIL the sec you dropped that useless neologism into this conversation. So practise what you are preaching. It is not an off topic as I am demonstrating your argument in clear terms. Each to his own mythology--everyone has it, it is all valid. You also made horrible remarks against The Moorish Temple as being some cult. How offensive is that.? I will also not engage you in insulting the legacy of African American Moors who claim Moorish ancestry. --Inayity (talk) 08:02, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I did not violate WP:CIVIL nor did I make "anti-African comments"; please do not personally attack me and defame my name with your accusations. You made a personal remark when you compared the "Hebrew people and Modern Jews". Ariel ^✡ 08:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I fear we are all violating Wikipedia now with this conversation. HOw On God's Earth could that Hebrew vs Modern Jews be a personal remark? Jews are a large group--, not one person. I am shocked that you took that personal? But academics discuss this all the time, what is offensive about it. If you told me African Americans are not descended from Ancient Egyptians should we take offense also? I did not have any intention to offend. (See Shlomo Sand--Inayity (talk) 08:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, I believe this discussion has strayed completely off topic due to our back and forth argument. I interpreted that example as a personal remark as I am Jewish and believed it to be directed at me in an offensive manner because of who I am. Thank you; I did not intend on offending either. All in all, I see your point regarding the Moorish Science Temple of America being included in the See Also section; I no longer object. Ariel ^✡ 08:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I very much object. Let's consider some of the other see also articles; History of North Africa, Orientalism, Al-Andalus - all of the articles in the section are related to the Moors as a historical people. Why does a fringe society that has no real connection to the historical people qualify for inclusion? It has very little relevance to the topic, which never once mentions the beliefs of the society, or any attempts to make any connection to modern movements. The see also section should contain relevant, notable articles - this one is neither relevant nor notable. It also opens the section to massive bloat. Rwenonah (talk) 13:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

hmm, never heard of Moorish Science Temple of America before but having had a quick look at the article they appear to claim (however ludicrously) to be descended from the the subjects of this article. On that basis, a brief name check in this article, such as see also, doesn't seem unwarranted. DeCausa (talk) 18:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

New Changes to the lead

Maybe i am wrong but the changes do not seem as good as what we had before. Please discuss. Also my history gets hazy when I leave a topic for a while but Tariq ibn Ziyad was Berber--Not Arab. Hence not an Arab conquest. --Inayity (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Alfonso X (1221-1284 AD), king of Castile said: "All of the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibily acquired. Their faces were black like pitch and the most handsome of them were black as a cooking pan." (Cantigas of Santa Maria)

The Cantigas of Santa Maria were a collection of 420 poems that were partially written by Alfonso X and often attributed to him. This isn't the only person who bare witness to black Moors.

Procopius of Ceasarea (500-560 AD), a Bynzantine scholar who wrote in Greek, said in his History of the Wars: "beyond that there are men not black-skinned like the Moors" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 14:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Moor (n.) Look up Moor at Dictionary.com "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

A European scholar sympathetic to the Spaniards remembered the conquest in this way: a. [T]he reins of their (Moors) horses were as fire, their faces black as pitch, their eyes shone like burning candles, their horses were swift as leopards and the riders fiercer than a wolf in a sheepfold at night . . . The noble Goths [the German rulers of Spain to whom Roderick belonged] were broken in an hour, quicker than tongue can tell. Oh luckless Spain! [i] [i] Quoted in Edward Scobie, The Moors and Portugal's Global Expansion, in Golden Age of the Moor, ed Ivan Van Sertima, US, Transaction Publishers, 1992, p.336

qoute " When the topic of the Moorish influence in Europe is being discussed, one of the first questions that arises is, what race were they? As early as the Middle Ages, “Moors were commonly viewed as being mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro,” according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Author and historian Chancellor Williams said “the original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were black Africans.” The 16th century English playwright William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. His contemporary Christopher Marlowe also used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish Emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as “a brown man with wooly hair.” Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire. Although generations of Spanish rulers have tried to expunge this era from the historical record, recent archeology and scholarship now shed fresh light on the Moors who flourished in Al-Andalus for more than 700 years – from 711 AD until 1492. The Moorish advances in mathematics, astronomy, art, and agriculture helped propel Europe out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance."

The best books I can recommend are the following -The Golden Age of the Moors by Ivan Van Sertima; - Hidden Colors by David Banners; -Nature knows no color line by J A Rogers; — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/The_True_Negro_2a.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 00:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

the moors were black africans not arabs!!! http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TBRISMN14PV9QJB3Q

Black Moors in Scotland http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/moors.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 00:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Old Dictionaries Define The MOORS Race! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YTZvGoCoxQ

Mon 14 Jan 2013 by abagond https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/sub-saharan-africa/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 10:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is Germany wiki on Moors

In Germany, the word Moor is spelled as Mohr or Mohren — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 20:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

this is in German wiki on moors Mohr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohr

This a passage on how the Moors described European when they ruled in Europe. It says it all How the Moors described their European foes: Sa-id of Andalusia wrote the following of his White Iberian opponents: They “are nearer animals than men ... They are by nature unthinking and their manners crude. Their bellies protrude; THEIR COLOR IS WHITE and their hair is long. In sharpness and delicacy of spirit and in intellectual perspicacity, they are nil. Ignorance, lack of reasoning power and boorishness are common among them.”(Kitab Tabakat al Umaxn (Blachere K. p. 36. 1935). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 06:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

MOOR meant negro or black a moor in a English dictionary (1768) by Samuel Johnson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 06:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The word moor predates Islam and the Islamic Moorish Empire ruled by Arabs and their Berber allies by thousands of years. That is why there is a long list of Moorish Saints aka Holy Moors who lived long before the advent of Islam or even after the defeat of Muslim Moors Why were they called Moors, if the Moors were Muslim conquerors? Saint Zeno, the Moor, Patron Saint of Veronna, Italy Saint Victor, the Moor Saint Corbineus, the Moor Saint Gregorius, the Moor of Cologne Saint Maurice, the Patron Saint of the Holy Roman Empire, a black man from Upper Egypt, the Commander of the Theban Legion Saint Benedict, the Moor of Palermo, who lived after the defeat of Muslim Moors — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 06:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Dieu, l'homme et la parole, ou La langue primitive par J. Azaïs, père (1778-1856) MAURE, nom d'un peuple dont la peau est noire; Moor: the name of a people whose skin is black. morou languedocien, mourou provençal, maurus lalin, mor, moren langue romane, morien vieux français, moro catalan, moro espagnol, mouro portugais, moro italien, maour, mauryan bas-breton, mohr allemand, moor anglais, moor hollandais, mohr danois, mor suédois, mour, maar, brûler, hébreu. Le More est noir, c'est-à dire de la couleur d'une chose brûlée. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 12:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

I wonder why Europeans wanted to immortalize the Moors as Black Africans in countless of expressions and at least DOZENS of traditions. Above all, Europeans created dishes and recipts they named moor or its many derivatives in French, in German, in Austrian etc. In every dish or recipe, they use chocolate or ingredient of a black or dark brown color 1) Moors and Christians: black beans and white rice 2) Moricaud (French) fondant au chocolat et aux amandes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

There were Moors LONG BEFORE there were any Muslims or Arab conquerors in North Africa. The word moor was even used for Christians of African origin, like Saint Maurice of Egypt or Saint Benedict the Moor. The word moor is derived from the Latin Maurus and the Greek mauros. It became mooriaan in Dutch It became maure or mauricaud in French It became mohr or mohren in German It became moor in English It became murzyn in Polish The term Moor was used across ancient and medieval Europe for people with darker skin color, historically for Ethiopians and Berbers and later generalized for ALL AFRICANS. It was not until the 16th century the word acquired the exclusive Mohr in German and in other European languages (Maure in French or Moro in Spanish) meaning of a man with black skin, while the Moor was henceforth referred to as such. Carlton Coon, an American anthropologist on the Berbers:“The association of dark skin with the name of 'Moors' resulted eventually in the same term being applied to Negrids." The Moors are immortalized as Black Africans in DOZENS of traditions, countless of expressions, a large number of works of arts and even dishes and recipes. Traditions 1) The Moor's head: the head of a Black man or woman, used as a heraldic symbol. Many of the heads are crowned and can be found on blazons of cities, dioceses and noble families; 2) The MORETTI: artistic representations of BLACK AFRICANS (sculpture, jewels etc.; 3) The MORCIC: a medieval jewel depicting a BLACK AFRICAN MAN dressed in oriental style; 4) The MOORS and Christians dish: BLACK beans and white rice 5) The MORESCA: a weapon dance during which the BLACK KING MORO, along with his black army, is challenged and defeated in a love triangle; 6) The MORENKOP or MOORHEAD: a stone head of a MOOR, or black skinned man, that hung above many pharmacies and pubs 7) The MOHRENKOPF (Moor's Head):a chocolate-coated marshmallow treat 8) The blackfaced King of the MOORS during Christmas celebrations in Finland 9) The blackfaced Peter, the MOORISH servant of Santa Claus during Christmas celebrations in Holland and Belgium. Belgians and Dutch blacken their face and wear Afro-wigs and red lipstick. 10) The MORRIS dance: popular folklore dance in Britain during Britons blackened their faces to better represent the original Moorish dancers and elect a King Coffee 11) The MOOR’s head color: dark brown used in decorative arts 12) The MOOR puppet: a blackfaced puppet representing the Moors. The blackfaced Moor puppet is seen onstage playing with a coconut, his movements are ape like. 12) The villainous MOOR: a very common black character played across Europe Expressions Black as Moor Blackface Moor Blacking up as a Moor Dishes and recipes In every dish or recipe, they use chocolate or ingredient of a black or dark brown colo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

qoute" Moor (Period)

The “Moor” or “blackamoor” is a Negroid human, unbearded and with nappy hair. If he wears headgear (a torse, a kerchief, &c), it is explicitly blazoned. When “proper”, he is dark brown with black hair. Moors and Mooresses are frequently found, especially for canting purposes, as in the arms of Mordeysen, 1605 [Siebmacher 160].

http://mistholme.com/dictionary/human-figure/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 17:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The "Moors" of West Africa and the Beginnings of the Portuguese Slave Trade. Kenneth Baxter Wolf. Pomona College. http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=pomona_fac_pub

Moors Start Slavery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPBgwxlabzA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 10:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Jose Piementa Bey - The Moorish Legacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NGzBlWEWY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 16:15, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

In Polish language there is a word "Murzyn" which is the most popular word to describe a Black person. It is currently translated into English as "Negro" but it didnt have any negative connotations until the second half of 20th century, however it's still consrdered neutral by most Polish people. This word - Murzyn - comes from the word "Moor". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 12:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Organization

The lead is highly repetitive and disorganized. Both the invasion and usage of the term are covered twice in separate paragraphs. I'm blending those paragraphs together into a more logical and coherent narrative. Beyond that, the rest of the article also had a number of redundant parts. It looks as though I removed a lot of content, but I mostly combined repetitive parts and removed a lot of overlink. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 00:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Were the Moors black?

The moors, my people -the Maghrebin, are priparily made of Lybian stock (also called berber) and of a minority of middle easter (phoenician speaking and later arabic speaking semits) and from other minorities of europeans (romamns greeks and vandals).

1) Why on earth Europeans passed down DOZENS of traditions remembering the Moors as Black Africans like the following:

a) the Moor's head b) the Morcic c) the Moresca d) the Moors and Christians dish e) the Moorish servant of Santa Claus, Black Peter f) the Morris dance g) the blackface King of the Moor

a) Saint Benedict, the Moor; b) Saint Maurice from Upper Egypt; c) Johannes Maurus, the Vizir of Sicily d) Gannibal, the Moor of Peter the Great

So one calling a "moor" white is an oxymoron. It's like saying a dark-skinned white person. And that would make no sense.

moros y cristianos recipe the dish named after " moors and Christians" with black beans for the Moors and white rice for the Christians". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Romans and Greeks = just tanned skin or what you called olive skin. Olives look more like black people black and brown and I never seen a green man in my life.

http://www.kymatasound.com/images/Olives_detail.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 13:35, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Why was st maruice called a moor when he was not a muslim nor a berber? Why was st augustine called a moor when he was not a muslim nor a berber? Why was de medici called a moor when he was not a mulsim nor a berber? St. Isidore of Seville, who was born in 560 AD and died in April 636 AD, wrote that Maurus means "black" in Greek. In the late 1400s, the Italian Roberto di San Severino in his writings clearly distinguishes between Moors and Arabs.1-According to Ali Ibn Allah, moorish king, AL Mansur was decsribed as having a mother who was a pure negro adn his father was part black part arabic. 2-Yusef Taschiffin was desrcribed as a black man, thin build, hook noes and wooly hair. He was from west africa. 3-The 4 moorish kings of aragon were described as 3 being mulato and the 4th one a pure negro by the name of mulai mahummed. Why is there not one early mideast moorish character in early literature? othello aaron the moor nagaymath turquio merchant of vienece song or roland

European Literature Confirms BLACK MOORS! 📕 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kzb8ykDo2s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 01:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

1) Why on earth Europeans passed down DOZENS of traditions remembering the Moors as Black Africans like the following: a) the Moor's head b) the Morcic c) the Moresca d) the Moors and Christians dish e) the Moorish servant of Santa Claus, Black Peter f) the Morris dance g) the blackface King of the Moor h) the Villainous Moor i) the puppet Moor j) the Moorehead on pharmacies and pubs; k) Moors and Christians festivals l) the White pieces (the Christians) vs the Black pieces (the Moors) of the Chess board m) the Moretti.2) Why on earth Europeans have coined the following expressions describing the Moors as Black Africans. a) Black as a Moor, hence, blackamoor b) the Black Madonna aka La Madonna Mora c) Give me Moor (a very dark purple nail polish) d) Moor's head cheese (with black crust), moor's head crystals (with black tips), moor's head pigeon (with a black head)3) Why on earth Europeans with no history of Black slavery or black colonies still use the word moor or its derivatives for Black Africans instead of negro. The Polish used Murzyn; the Greeks, mavros for Black Africans?4) Why on earth artists like Rubbens , Rembrandt or authors like Shakespeare used the word Moor in their works for Black Africans and not negro?5) Why on earth the Spaniards came up with the expression blue blood if the Moors were from the same Caucasian or Eurasian family? Spaniards knew the difference between their skin, the dark brown skin of the Moors and the dark skin of their mixed offspring with the Moors, called Moriscos.Sangre azul, blue blood, was a euphemism for being a white man who can hold up his pale or light skin showing blue veins, untainted by Moorish blood. Blue veins clearly appear under light or pale skin.6) Why on earth Black Africans with no connection AT ALL with Islam or Northwestern Africa were called Moors by ancient and medieval Europeans like the following people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 14:45, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Why is there not one early mideast moorish character in early literature? othello aaron the moor nagaymath turquio merchant of vienece song or roland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 02:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Moors in Europe 5: Rise of the Dark Knights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pfTykKh0Q

THE GERMANIC MOORS OF THE BLACK REICH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xewvuZJoxTg

Moors in Europe 4: Who was that Head-Banded Man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7FnTGU0-3A — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 15:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

'Moors' from Oxford Islamic Studies Online http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218

Ancient History Sourcebook: Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218

Mauretania http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 01:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The lybians (berbers), attested since the early egyptian kingdoms, are a people with white and olive skin, depicted in anciants tombs of the pharaos like in "the book of gates", also in the carthagian remains, as well as the greek and roman depictions and sculptures. We as our ancestors were, are of Caucasoid clasification and with light skin, and inhabit the land of North africa since the anciant times.

Genetics have confirmed that the Maghrebin people (the moors) have a 70% eurasian genetics heritage, with the North-African E1b1b as Y-chromozome in general. (Refer to the genetic history of North Africa or of the Maghreb).

The term "Moor" derive from Mauri, which is a native name. Found in the greek literature in the for of MAURUSIOI and not MAUROS. The same term appear in the Roman literature as MAURII and the greeks followed the Roman trandition and started to use MAURI and again never MAUROS.

the true racism is to try to steal the history and identity of a people in name of couter-racism. We have lived with black people in the same continent for thousends of years (separated by the Sahara desert) with times of peace and times of war, today the black Africans try to steal the identity of the white Africans and the media and internet is the plateform given that people just believe what is in the internet generaly without further academic researchs.

Disidore of sevill is the only one who says Mauri comes from Mauros, while all the other historians of his times and before and after say the contrary.Starbo :"Here dwell a people called by the Greeks Maurusii, and by the Romans and the natives Mauri". Polybe, Diodor of Cicily say the same thing. alot of greek and roman peotes describe the Lybians (the Mauri are a Lybian people, which also mean the berbers) as being white and sometimes with blond traits.

THE QUESTIONS IS :

The acctual facts, the history, the genetics, the archeological evidences and everything the respectful historians take into consideration are evidences that Moors are not black and were never.

Why you try to publish the black moors propaganda ?!!!

Just come and visit the north african contries, or look at the journals of genetics! or look at the respectful historians' books! or watch north african tv!!

AND BY THE WAY, Arabic is a language and a culture, the north africans (the Maghrebins, or moors whatever you want to call them) are arabs by the language and Lybians (berbers) by race and genetics! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maghrevi (talk • contribs) 14:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

'Moor' is just a word. Like other words its meaning(s) evolve and change in different contexts. The word was used as a synonym for 'black' in post-medieval Europe. As for its etymology, you need to identify scholarly sources for statements about that. Mere assertion will not do. Paul B (talk) 14:17, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I suppose this makes a change from being yelled at because the Moors _were_ black. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

in your dreams Pinkbeast, the truth can not be hidden, the actual facts of genetics shows the reality, and the excavations of the anciant tombs and archeology and dna extraction will give more evidences and you will turn down.

The moors as all the evidence given were not black, and for the only quote of one late historian in the times of christian north africa who said that Maurii came from Mauros (dark) you are defending that while all the other historians deny this (Strabo, Salluste, Bochart...). What about all the pictures and the drawings of that time? what about the descendants of the moors who still live isolated in some north african towns like Chefchaouen, Tetouan, Sale, fez...? you will fail once the North Africans will wake up to defend their history from being stolen. As all the facts are with them — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maghrevi (talk • contribs) 11:04, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Argue the point with 70.75.93.245, who also feels really strongly and slightly incoherently on the subject? Pinkbeast (talk) 05:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

quote " The Mauri aka Mauretanii were of Berbers aka Imazighen. They are indigenous Africans west of the Nile Valley. A minority of them lives in Egypt around the Qara and Siwa oases. Berbers are people of MALE East African genetic affiliation who have marked and relatively recent strain of Eurasian blood on MATERNAL lines. Ancient Berbers were full blown Blacks who looked exaclty like their ancestors from the Horn of Africa . During their golden age, they took countless of Eurasian women as concubines or legitimate wives. Google King Juba of Mauretania who married a European woman. __________ There are no White Berbers, except for the following people who have ZERO Berber ancestry and do not carry the Berber Marker EM81 -Berber converts, that is , the descendants of White slaves (the Barbary slaves, the Janissaries or the Saqaliba and many others, like the Punic slaves captured or sold during the golden age of the Carthaginian Empire. -Berber wannabees, that is the descendants of European or Turkish settlers who made North Africa, their home. Many of them are the Andalusi, the descendants of Spanish Muslims who were expelled to Africa during the Reconquista. 2010 BERBER MTDNA STUDY FINDS BERBER ROOTS FOUNDATIONAL IN AFRICA - FRIGI 2010 Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations results reveal that BERBER SPEAKERS HAVE A FOUNDATIONAL BIOGEOGRAPHIC ROOT IN AFRICA and those deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa. findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), WHICH EMERGED IN AFRICA, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, THE HORN/EAST AFRICA, WAS A MAJOR SOURCE OF POPULATION IN THE NILE VALLEY AND NORTHWEST AFRICA after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001). HUMAN ALU INSERTION POLYMORPHISMS IN NORTH AFRICAN POPULATIONS (2011 DNA STUDY) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146064 Taken together, results on Y chromosome, mtDNA and Alu Insertions in North Africa allow proposing a scenario for this region. The ancient “sub-Saharan” settlement would have been followed by admixture with Iberian populations. But, as the North African Y chromosome remained dominant in the region, we could argue that this admixture have been realized in one direction: NORTH AFRICAN MEN AND EURASIAN WOMEN explaining the gene flow from Europe and high frequency of European types of mtDNA in North Africa as compared with Y chromosome. This situation would not be the result of drift toward Eurasian mtDNA. Our results on Alu insertions interestingly confirm that this gene flow happened several times probably always on the same direction. These matrimonial exchanges between North Africa and Europe should be considered in a context of patriarchal societies with men attached to territory and women from different regions including Europe. HENCE, GENETIC DIVERSITY ON ONE HAND AND RELATIONSHIP WITH EUROPE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DUE TO WOMEN" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It is the African genetic marker. It has nothing to do with Eurasia, only when Africans migrated there.

North Africans carry their male E hg because they are the offspring of African men and Eurasian women not the other way around.

E (M96) The African reconquest marker, this lineage is the most predominant in Africa today

E1 (P147) This population produced lineages that account for +90% of E (M96)

E1a (L633) This population headed west out of the HOA, prospered Western Africa before being reduced to Mali by E1b1 (P2)

E1b (P177 ) Accounts +80% of E (M96)

E1b1 (P2) This population will first dominate the Ethiopian Plateau, then produce the two lineages that will conquer Africa

E1b1a (V100) Paleolithic marker in Western HOA, that became predominant in Subsaharan Africa

E1b1b (M215) Paleolithic marker in Northern HOA, that became predominant in North Africa

E1b2 (P75) Less successful minor lineage

E2(M75) This population expanded around the same time frame as E1 (P147), possibly expanded from West Africa into the Great lakes

E2* Present as an ancestral lineage in 2 clusters; in Senegambia, the Great Lakes & a reduced lineage in Namibia

E2a (M41) An important population in the Great lakes & a minority in the Upper Nile

E2b (M54) Shared the same habitat with E2a (M41) in the Paleolithic

E2b1 (M85) This lineage marks the southwards movement into the Great Lakes & Southwest African coastline

E2b1* Clusters representing ancestral lineages & reduced population

E2b1a (M200) A minority lineage in the Western parts of the Great Lakes region

------

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/fu...European Journal of Human Genetics (2014) 22, 1387–1392; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.41; published online 26 March 2014

Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/population.htm http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/mutations.htm ::::::Archeological and paleontological evidences point to East Africa as the likely area of early evolution of modern humans.

Genetic studies also indicate that populations from the region often contain, but not exclusively, representatives of the more basal clades of mitochondrial and Y-chromosome phylogenies.

Most Y-chromosome haplogroup diversity in Africa, however, is present within macrohaplogroup E that seem to have appeared 21 000–32  000 YBP somewhere between the Red Sea and Lake Chad.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 15:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The Horn of Africa is firmly located in Africa south of the Sahara whether you like it or not. http://data.worldbank.org/region/SSA http://data.worldbank.org/region/SSA

Horners do not fit the typical negro stereotype popularized by Euro-slavers and Euro-colonialists because of their aquiline features, straight/curly hair and elongated heads), yet they are Africans south of the Sahara. Saying that Somali have only 5% of chromosomes from sub-Saharan Africa does not make sense at all. European Journal of Human Genetics is a respected jounal. Saying that the reference is authored strictly by Africans, Horners or Sudanese is no valid argument. Their study was published in the European Journal of Human Genetics. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html eceived 27 June 2013; Revised 11 February 2014; Accepted 13 February 2014 Advance online publication 26 March 2014 The Northern African populations tend to separate into two distinct groups:

one containing Moroccan Arabs and Berbers and Saharawi, derived from the larger East African group and

the other includes the Northern African populations of Algeria, Egypt and Tunisia, which forms a connection to both Europeans and Eritrean and Ethiopians hinting to recent genetic relationship between North and East African populations as is widely believed Your own European ancestors created the black-a-moor (black as a moor) heraldry and imagery. They were far from being stupid or color blind. Blacks were not an oddity in ancient and medieval like Eurocentrists want us to believe Herodotus, the father of European history, described the Egyptians as having black skin and woolly hair Saint Isidore of Seville, the school master of the Middle Ages, wrote that the Moors have bodies as black as night while the skin of the Gauls is white. Were Herodotus or Saint Isidore of Seville — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 23:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

many European authors wrote about moors and being black african. I wondering are you refuting this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 11:09, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

in fact if you strongly believe moors does not mean black african people I want you to rip Shakespeare description of moors from all his plays. In fact do that to all European authors who wrote about the moors being black africans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 11:19, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

By the way who ever said that all black people are Sub-Saharan Africans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 14:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, not that I think this section will ever make a great deal of sense, I suspect the answer is that some Moors were black and some weren't (but most of them looked exceptional to any Northern Europeans who saw them anyway). Prosaic as that might be. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Africans migrated out of Africa BEFORE and went everywhere on earth including the Ancient Mediterranean BEFORE there was a so-called Caucasoid ppl. And I don't believe these non-Africans were the first to populate any part of Africa. Stop wasting my time trying to steal African history.

Eurocentrists will continue to claim that the so called Caucasoids LOL LOL were the first to arrive in North and East Africa in a lame attempt to lay false claim to the historical achievements of the ancient Egyptians, Berbers and Horners and to a lesser extent to downplay the African ancestry of millions of Europeans through the e1b1b hg.

In addition, "White" Europe has some well-guarded dark secrets that transpire thanks to peculiar traditions like the Moor's head (the head of a black man or even woman) on flags, church windowns, castle walls and frescoes, coins (google Delphian coins found in Greece remembering Delphos, the Egyptian ruler over Southern Greece) or ancient treasures (like the gold phiale of Panagurishte in Bulgaria. http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/phocis.html http://www.bridgemanimages.com/de/asset/592190//bulgaria-phiale-libation-bowl-decorated-with-concentric-circles-of-acorns-negro-heads-and-palmettes-from-the-panagjuriste-treasure-embossed-gold http://mfas3.s3.amazonaws.com/objects/SC164711.jpg

African influenced place names. We all know that toponymics is a special language of history like Mortain, Mortagne, Morance, Monte Moro, Pays des Maures in Southern France. All those names are irrefutable evidence that Africans lived in Europe and were powerful or significant enough to leave their mark on place names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Latin Dictionary definition of the word "Moor" means "Black Man" https://books.google.com/books?id=U-YIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=english+to+latin+black&source=bl&ots=MzYXlBXTKh&sig=eo_TwPf1WcAGJr305TwhJCwftpE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rHGhVf4gjOP5AcDjoLAC&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCQ#v=snippet&q=moor%20black&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 (talk) 14:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you quite finished? The short answer is that 'moor' was used just like 'African' is today. Not all moors/Africans were black - but (at the time) all blacks were moors/Africans. The reality is that medieval European/Andalusian art and traditions–like Greek/Roman/Arabic/Egyptian before them–made it clear that while present in North Africa, black people were a considerable minority. The semantics of Moor and its Isidore-theorized Greek origins are irrelevant beside the bulk of credible evidence.

Your frustration that your 'irrefutable' evidence goes ignored by mainstream academia comes down to the disingenuousness of your afrocentric sources. You seem to be influenced by Van Sertima, among others, whose claims are as obviously manipulated as the illustrations he uses where all non-black moors are cropped out. If you dare/care to know the truth, then go to the sources your Afrocentrist writers quote and see what they actually said. The liberties taken with them, the deliberate misquoting and misrepresentation done to forward a racial agenda will quickly become clear. Go on, you will be enlightened and can perhaps turn your attentions to the real history of black African civilization that afrocentrists bizarrely ignore in their quest to appropriate everyone else's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.115.70.210 (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

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Recent shuffling

I think I've put back everything that went missing in the recent round of drivebys.

However, XXGfHXx has shuffled the ordering of Arabs, Berbers, Muslim Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans quite extensively with no explanation in edit summaries. May I ask why? Pinkbeast (talk) 15:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

As well as doing so, they're now reverting out reasoned changes to the gallery without explanation and have not responded to comments on their own talk page. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

That editor has never posted to an article or user talk page in the almost 4 years they've been editing. I've reverted most of their recent edits - poor sourcing, pov, etc. Doug Weller (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Moors living elsewhere in Europe, and during what periods

We should probably cover the presence of Moors in Europe outside of Spain and Italy, especially before European involvement in the African slave trade (mid-1600s). Shakespeare's Othello, via Cinthio's "Un Capitano Moro", may be based on real events of the early 1500s in Venice, and seemed not too exotic a subject for London's Elizabethan audience. Morris dancing is apparently ultimately traceable to Moors in the 1400s, in Germany and the Low Countries by way of the Mediterranean states. Readers are apt to wonder whether the frequent appearance of "Moorish" characters in British quasi-historical fiction is plausible (e.g. Camelot (2011 TV series, set in the 500s, and presumably representing descendants of Africans in the Roman army), Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (1991 film, set in the late 1100s), and The Bastard Executioner (2015 TV series, set in the early 1300s), both of the latter featuring travelling survivors of the Third Crusade. Jews were certainly well-established for real (and being treated punitively) in England by the time of Edward I in the 1200s, but I don't know about other Eastern, Middle Eastern or North African groups. Roma were in Germany and England by the early 1500s (persecuted throughout Europee in the middle of that century especially in England and in Scandinavia, but eventually given special travelling privileges in England before 1600). Not finding much about Muslims in Europe, outside the areas they controlled in the Middle Ages. Our own article Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe doesn't really get into it, and seems to suggest that most of these influence came via Spain, Sicily, Rome, and Greece, often by way of Europeans returning from Eastern and African travels, not from Muslims living deep in Europe, except in Spain.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Mention of Moor by Procopius of Caesarea

Why is you want to remove such old usage of the word moor that dates back to 500 A.D.???

Also stop with the false accsuation I'm assuming GOOD FAITH while you are assuming BAD FAITH, that is not good for the collaborative environment of Wikipedia, so let's discuss here Alexis Ivanov (talk) 05:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The passage is ungrammatical to the point that it is incoherent. And it is improperly placed in the intro, per WP:LEAD. The source is also unclear and improperly cited. If you or the editor who added it wish to clean it up, source it properly, and place it in the Etymology, that would be fine. But it is so poorly rendered at this point that an editor with access to the source would be required to correct it. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 05:40, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

You see assuming good faith is nice. Now you are learning. Well Procopius of Caesarea doesn't deal with the etymology of the word, he merely mentions them as passage in the Vandelic Wars, maybe you can incorporate a grammatical correct word so we can properly cite his work here. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 05:46, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

As I stated, the grammar is so poor that it is unclear what he is trying to say. The source would be necessary to render the statement properly and source it correctly. Moving the paragraph does not fix that, and I don't have access to the source. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 06:08, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I moved it and modified it and provided a source, a secondary one for that matter. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 06:11, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

What is the reason for adding "The word Moor where mentioned by Procopius of Caesarea , who was born about c. AD 500 – c. AD 560." - By the way, it's "was" not "where". Doug Weller (talk) 11:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Literary racism is what this article represents. Doug Weller the overseer.

This article has many issues. Doug Weller has made it perfectly clear that he (or she) will use his/ her objective bias and opinion ESPECIALLY on pages dealing with Moors (See talk section at Moorish Science Temple of America. I have pointed out SEVERAL flaws in this persons methodology and I am going to use this section to point out not only this person's flawed methodology, but also this person's bigotry. The editor "Doug Weller" uses his/her own personal feelings as opposed to actual scholastic methodology. In this, Doug feels that what he/she feels is right regardless of the sources presented and will ignore the requisites if something said hurts his/feelings. I will be back to this page soon with point for point proofs of this person's bigotry. Peace.--Sheik Way-El 18:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC) --Sheik Way-El 17:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheik Way-El (talk • contribs) 17:44, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

'Peace' is a bit at odds with this personal attack. If you think my edits are inspired by bigotry, please report me to WP:ANI. Otherwise it's in your best interest to concentrate on the article, not me. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines gives guidance on how to use this page. Doug Weller talk 13:34, 29 December 2015 (UTC)